Details of India's 5th Gen AMCA Technology Demonstrator: NGTD

[he-man]

They can in fact spare money and manpower for 100 different projects all at the same time.

Don't be blind man,they neither have manpower nor money for most of these projects.I wont fight here but please go and see the average development cost of a turbofan and average r&d that goes into making a 5 th generation plane..........quote the numbers and then discuss with me how they are gonna bring that money and we have a discussion

We couldn't risk being outstripped by every other nation engrossed in making turbofans. Going for a VCE was imho a wise choice, imagine if we succeeded in a conventional turbofan at the same pace as the current Kaveri and then if DRDO says they want to do a VCE engine with similar power, imagine the hurdles then.

I urge u to check what a vce is and how many countries have made a vce.......that would give u an answer that this was a stupid choice.

Tejas' delay for example can be atributed to the MoD of 2010 when they idiotically and prematurely concluded the LCA contracts before ADA could even freeze the final design.
Who does that....

I emphatically agree with this.
DRDO/HAL have got good success on tejas and its the air force that is acting as a stumbling block.
They have again changed the requirements of mk1a,for the love of god have some shame.

 

[Shabi1]

Please stop thinking about kaveri......its dead.
At the best we should make some alterations for use in a drone just for the dry thrust.
All this talk of french help and all wont suffice,everything needs serious money.

India wanted an engine with 600 million dollars investment and that too for a country making first turbofan,lol.Are they smoking weed??I mean 600 million over a period of 10-15 years,possibly more.What sort of engine will u make spending 60 million a year,gullible people all of us to even believe this nonsense.French already offer more than 1 billion euro just to revive the project.

Russians are making newer generation izd 30 engine and one of the su-57 prototype is already flying with it.We should have invested there and used that engine to make a sinle engine larger fighter in future.
I would even suggest trying to reverse engineer the al-31 f atleast.We couldnt even do that and its 30 odd years old tech.Pathetic loudmouths.

HAL is capable of just mk1,mk1a at the moment.Forget a redesigned mk2 and amca.
And again the stupid air force brass has changed the requirements for the mk1a,for god's sake u ppl are flying shitty jaguars,mig-27 and mig-21 and u want the replacing aircraft to have 5 th generation capabilities.God save us.

Then there is news of air force floating tender for equipping 60 odd jagaurs with newer engines,possibly honeywell engine to replace the older rolls royce adour engines.Each engine will cost 6-7 million dollars.We already spent money on darin 3 upgrade of jaguars.Why the hell not buy more mki's directly from russians to replace these with more multirole jets?

HAL has made tejas a competitive small fighter to replace the old junk air force has currently,just focus on that rather than wasting time and money on useless things and last but not the least stop being motor mouths.

I am convinced there is too much corruption at the highest level as no level headed person can support this archaic policies of especially indian air force.Indian navy has done far far better in respect.



When japanese cannot fund their fighter,who thinks indians can?
Stupid rhetoric,tired of these loudmouth HAL people leaking their wet dreams on a daily basis.

HAL & InAF project management.

 

[AMCA]

I agree,read the last paragraph.
All i want is for them to focus on work at hand and not take my unnecessary new projects.

Our guys should probably talk less and work more. Everything will seem to look normal and professional the day these guys put their brains to work more than their mouth.

 

[Deino]

Prototype of course.
Two of them, with flight testing to be completed in six years.

But it looks like ADA wants to call this a TD and make full-fledged prototypes after this.

Come on ... by that time not even the LCA Mr.2 is ready and it build upon a "proven" design?!!
How do you think construction and flight testing of the AMCA could be realistically done within 6 years?

 

[MimophantSlayer]

Don't be blind man,they neither have manpower nor money for most of these projects.I wont fight here but please go and see the average development cost of a turbofan and average r&d that goes into making a 5 th generation plane..........quote the numbers and then discuss with me how they are gonna bring that money and we have a discussion

That is an unfair blanket statement, not every project gets delayed like crazy, eg ATAGS, NETRA AWE&CS, etc.

And technically you are not wrong, yes the manpower and funding is not optimum especially if we want to get things done in western style timeframes but that doesn't mean it isn't sufficient.
You have to realise that our conditions for security are unique and if we don't have our hands in every single pot we'll be left behind and again have to be dependent on other countries, for us unfortunately this is the only option.

Again, the average cost of R&D of Western turbofan powerplants will obviously be higher than in India, as India has cheaper labour and everything in between that is why Tejas cost us just over a billion dollars and that is why we can operate our space program so cheap and again the funding for Kaveri has not yet ended, it is still ongoing hence it is incorrect to say it was hindered just because of money.

I urge u to check what a vce is and how many countries have made a vce.......that would give u an answer that this was a stupid choice.

What does the number of countries attempting or not attempting VCEs have to do with anything?
Very many countries aren't doing Mars missions either yet we are doing it.

VCE not only gives better mach numbers in different air speeds it also has higher SEP which would be absolutely crucial during sudden itr and str during air combat.
An advanced platform like that seems like an obvious choice.

 

[GumNaam]

pehla apna woh 3rd class err meray matlab 3rd generation tej@ss ko to dhang say bana lo!

 

[Rain]

What about PAC taking part in bids?

 

[KapitaanAli]

Come on ... by that time not even the LCA Mr.2 is ready and it build upon a "proven" design?!!
How do you think construction and flight testing of the AMCA could be realistically done within 6 years?

Only of the TD. It'll have no significant fifth gen avionics.

Mk2 and AMCA/NGTD are running parallel. But it'll be past 2030 until LSP worthy AMCA.

 

[AMCA]

What about PAC taking part in bids?

How about PAC taking part in your own projects first?

 

[KapitaanAli]

How about PAC taking part in your own projects first?

They do make 3rd gen wings.

 

[faithfulguy]

Our guys should probably talk less and work more. Everything will seem to look normal and professional the day these guys put their brains to work more than their mouth.

Everyone knows Indians brags too much. I’m glad you finally catch on.

But I can’t blame you, when Indian former president proclaim that India will be a Supa Powa by 2012, it just tell the average guys to take it easy as India already have it made.

For a country like India, it work best if everyone’s job is on the line.

 

[he-man]

Come on ... by that time not even the LCA Mr.2 is ready and it build upon a "proven" design?!!
How do you think construction and flight testing of the AMCA could be realistically done within 6 years?

Chest thumping and nothing else.U can clearly see from comments that people are actually lapping it up and think its perfectly doable.........facepalm moment really.

What does the number of countries attempting or not attempting VCEs have to do with anything?

Are u serious?
Why the hell not try with conventional plants that u are already manufacturing under license?
This statement of yours was laughable(no disrespect).A country having 0 experience should start with something easier and common,possibly even try reverse engineering.There is no need to make stupid choices especially when u are already 50 years late to the game.

Our guys should probably talk less and work more. Everything will seem to look normal and professional the day these guys put their brains to work more than their mouth.

Won't happen.
No one works hard with shitty government salary.Why would they for 80k-1 lakh a month?

 

[AMCA]

Everyone knows Indians brags too much. I’m glad you finally catch on.

But I can’t blame you, when Indian former president proclaim that India will be a Supa Powa by 2012, it just tell the average guys to take it easy as India already have it made.

For a country like India, it work best if everyone’s job is on the line.

Its not bragging, its buying votes. The media runs on TRP and organizations get funds for it. Nobody is chest thumping on it anyway. An average Indian is busy with his/her own life just like in any other country. Its not like when ISRO launches as satellite into orbit, all 1.5 billion of us glare at the lit sky and say " Hey Kumar, that's an all indigenious cryogenic engine up there mate".

 

[dreamer4eva]

HAL & InAF project management.

Its part right. As the cliche goes fish rots at head, so the problem is MOD and everything else is mere symptom.

I'm into project management and without sounding boastful, few of the good ones at my company. Customer should be involved from the design phase and continuous feedback needs to incorporated. Once the design is signed/ frozen, from that point onward, its change management, and it needs to go through risk/impact assessment before being accepted in scope. This is project management 101.

How can IAF gets away with so many changed requirements? Why ADA/DRDO not make them accountable for their decisions earlier? What are their escalation points? Where is MOD as being tax payers representative(the most important stakeholder?

IMO, all these changes are missed requirements and finger needs to be pointed at IAF. It is lack of planning/foresight as they did not think about all these requirements. I don't know what happen in the steering committee meetings for these projects. Looks like all parties have vested interests and fooling the tax payers in the end. On the contrary, I have respect for ADA guys turbofan with 52k/80k thrust is a big achievement for 3rd world country like India. More importantly, they got it done with peanuts. I'm no expert, IMHO, Turbofan engine is an art not science, otherwise, Chinese would have a stable one a while ago..

I had very similar situation in my last steer co. presentation and asked the same question, our project sponsor tried to get away with this. My last response was regarding missed requirement/lack of planning and they did not have an answer, made a fool of themselves before the senior project stakeholders.

India needs to allocate $4-5 billion for turbo fan R&D alone, get the best brains, pay them accordingly, and I have no doubt in 3-5 year, India will have a turbo fan with at least 90k thrust and should be enough to power non stealth medium fighter, and if they are able to keep the same team, then that very team would be making inroads towards 100k plus turbfan. This cumulative effort would be reaching tipping point in 10-12 years time from now..and then anything is possible..

 

[Tshering22]

This is where all efforts should really be rather than wasting more time and IAF lives with Tejas.

Tejas is by far the safest jet in IAF right now. It has not even got an incident till now, let alone an accident despite being in final testing phase. Sure, it took long but it is no mean feat to do it in one go.

AMCA is very much in design phase. It will take at least 10 more years before we can see it flying and going through IOC.