Despite frantic effort by Lockheed Martin India ditches F-21 for LCA

[Joe Shearer]

This is probably the best news for the LCA program and in general the Indian aerospace industry. LCA in its current shape may not be a spectacular aircraft (albeit a good aircraft) but its large scale production, and evolution will be worth much more than any F21. If I were a Pakistani planner I would be unsettled by the possibility of large numbers of LCA and its future evolutions across the border doing for the IAF what the JF17 does for the PAF. It is no secret that India can afford to out produce the JF17 if there was the will to do so.

Ouch!

I really dislike Pakistani posters who identify the real weak spots in our system, and then proceed to apply pressure on it.

Your last eight words sum up our problem - it's all about political will and acumen.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Our chances of getting a new kind of F-16 just dramatically shrank. The Indian air force recently signaled it would cancel a tender for foreign-made warplanes.

It was that contest that motivated American plane-maker Lockheed Martin LMT to develop a unique, highly-advanced F-16 variant the company called the “F-21.”

The Indian air force in 2019 announced it would spend up to $15 billion buying 114 fighters. The plan was for the new planes to replace old MiG-21s and fly alongside European-designed Jaguars, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, Russian MiG-29s and Su-30s and India’s own indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft in what Lockheed described as “the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem.”

The F-21, Boeing BA‘s F/A-18E/F, the Rafale, the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E and the Russian MiG-35 and Su-35 all were contenders. Indian companies would have assembled the new jets on license.

No longer. “The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Chief of the Defense Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview. The air force would order 83 additional Tejas on top of the 40 LCAs the service already has paid for.

Those 83 LCAs would cost $6 billion. That’s less than half what New Delhi planned to spend under the previous tender, implying that cost motivated the decision.

“The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good,” Rawat said.

The Indian air force in 2020 maintains just 28 fighter squadrons against a requirement for 42 squadrons. The service hopes to stand up three new units in 2020 as additional Rafales, Su-30s and LCAs arrive.

Hindustan Aeronautics’ Tejas, which first flew in 2001, is far less sophisticated than the F-21 would have been. The delta-wing, lightweight LCA can carry around 8,000 pounds of ordnance—half what an Indian Su-30MKI can haul. The Tejas also is slower and less maneuverable than India’s other foreign-made fighters are.

The F-21, by contrast, would have included technology from the company’s F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters. “The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components,” Lockheed stated on its website on the morning of Feb. 20, 2019.

A few hours later, that claim disappeared from the site. In any event, the F-21 would have been the most advanced version yet of the single-engine F-16, which flew for the first time in 1974.

The F-21 design boasted new cockpit displays, conformal fuel tanks, a large airframe spine that could accommodate communication systems or radar-jammers, fittings for towed radar decoys, a new infrared sensor and a refueling probe for use with India’s Russian-made aerial tankers.

Production of the F-21 would have extended one of the world’s most successful fighter programs.

Around 2,300 of F-16s fly for more than 30 air arms, accounting for no less than four percent of all the world’s military aircraft. But even without an Indian order, Lockheed anticipates it could continue building new F-16s through 2030.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/05/16/say-goodbye-to-indias-super-f-16/amp/

I hope we get New F16s and have our old ones Upgraded

 

[Beast]

Our chances of getting a new kind of F-16 just dramatically shrank. The Indian air force recently signaled it would cancel a tender for foreign-made warplanes.

It was that contest that motivated American plane-maker Lockheed Martin LMT to develop a unique, highly-advanced F-16 variant the company called the “F-21.”

The Indian air force in 2019 announced it would spend up to $15 billion buying 114 fighters. The plan was for the new planes to replace old MiG-21s and fly alongside European-designed Jaguars, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, Russian MiG-29s and Su-30s and India’s own indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft in what Lockheed described as “the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem.”

The F-21, Boeing BA‘s F/A-18E/F, the Rafale, the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E and the Russian MiG-35 and Su-35 all were contenders. Indian companies would have assembled the new jets on license.

No longer. “The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Chief of the Defense Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview. The air force would order 83 additional Tejas on top of the 40 LCAs the service already has paid for.

Those 83 LCAs would cost $6 billion. That’s less than half what New Delhi planned to spend under the previous tender, implying that cost motivated the decision.

“The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good,” Rawat said.

The Indian air force in 2020 maintains just 28 fighter squadrons against a requirement for 42 squadrons. The service hopes to stand up three new units in 2020 as additional Rafales, Su-30s and LCAs arrive.

Hindustan Aeronautics’ Tejas, which first flew in 2001, is far less sophisticated than the F-21 would have been. The delta-wing, lightweight LCA can carry around 8,000 pounds of ordnance—half what an Indian Su-30MKI can haul. The Tejas also is slower and less maneuverable than India’s other foreign-made fighters are.

The F-21, by contrast, would have included technology from the company’s F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters. “The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components,” Lockheed stated on its website on the morning of Feb. 20, 2019.

A few hours later, that claim disappeared from the site. In any event, the F-21 would have been the most advanced version yet of the single-engine F-16, which flew for the first time in 1974.

The F-21 design boasted new cockpit displays, conformal fuel tanks, a large airframe spine that could accommodate communication systems or radar-jammers, fittings for towed radar decoys, a new infrared sensor and a refueling probe for use with India’s Russian-made aerial tankers.

Production of the F-21 would have extended one of the world’s most successful fighter programs.

Around 2,300 of F-16s fly for more than 30 air arms, accounting for no less than four percent of all the world’s military aircraft. But even without an Indian order, Lockheed anticipates it could continue building new F-16s through 2030.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/05/16/say-goodbye-to-indias-super-f-16/amp/

Very simple. US threaten to cut F404 engine for LCA if IAF refuse to buy F-21. IAF needs to buy at least 100 F-21 before supply of F404 engine for LCA will continue.

Case solved. India become a suxker again.

 

[Nilgiri]

Ouch!

I really dislike Pakistani posters who identify the real weak spots in our system, and then proceed to apply pressure on it.

Your last eight words sum up our problem - it's all about political will and acumen.

JamD is one I have been following posts of a long time (in cpl places).

Somewhat big aberration he doesn't have title here in this forum...but he is somewhat a rare+quiet type.

 

[Joe Shearer]

JamD is one I have been following posts of a long time (in cpl places).

Somewhat big aberration he doesn't have title here in this forum...but he is somewhat a rare+quiet type.

Very shrewd and very painful post.

 

[Mig hunter]

Hi,

Here is what I would like to share---. The indians are not idiots---let me repeat it one more time---indians are not idiots---.

By going with the F16 BLK70---they would have alowed the US to take control of their offensive fighting capabilities---and no sane nation would do something like that unless it is Pakistan air force---.

The indians weighed the pluses and minuses of the F16 to the Tejas and assessed that a properly upgraded Tejas is not too far behind the F16 BLK 70 or the F21---as it is tagged to be---.

India cannot be and will not be dictated what the US orders in a time of crisis---.

Bottomline---india will hardly lose sleep over this non issue at this time---.

What about AHs, P8s, C17s and blah blah.... Every thing should not be PAF bashing centric sir

 

[Joe Shearer]

JamD is one I have been following posts of a long time (in cpl places).

Somewhat big aberration he doesn't have title here in this forum...but he is somewhat a rare+quiet type.

He, psychic, cuirassier....let's hope their posts increase. One learns from them.

Is cuirassier a fauji?

 

[Rank]

Hi,

Here is what I would like to share---. The indians are not idiots---let me repeat it one more time---indians are not idiots---.

By going with the F16 BLK70---they would have alowed the US to take control of their offensive fighting capabilities---and no sane nation would do something like that unless it is Pakistan air force---.

The indians weighed the pluses and minuses of the F16 to the Tejas and assessed that a properly upgraded Tejas is not too far behind the F16 BLK 70 or the F21---as it is tagged to be---.

India cannot be and will not be dictated what the US orders in a time of crisis---.

Bottomline---india will hardly lose sleep over this non issue at this time---.

Agree! I exactly said the same thing when IAF went for Rafale over US F-18. From this move, they’ve secured their future. From the past few years, IAF has bought many US military hardware included C17, C130 and P8i. Except P8i, none is critical, first line or a primary defense weapon I would say. They’ve also signed for MH60R ASW which is again secondary.

Selecting “American” weapon for your core defense is like you’re calling dalal to defend you at the time of rape attempt. This is more like you’re compromising your offensive and defence (both) capabilities. Americans are historical liar and blackmailer when it comes to your defense. Tho I am also a big fan of their military technology.

They’ve send American spy on the name of Instructors, operators, so called experts @Jacobabad. Mean while monitoring our super duper BLK52 (world’s one of most advance fighter jet - Hell ya), they’re actually doing survillence and monitoring of our movement and communication. In fact, they’re definitely much more thn that which we might know but can’t do anything because of strings or maybe we have no idea (which is highly unlikely).

Americans are “opportunist”. Selecting non-US for your major front line weapon is a good strategy. Indians did the same with S-400 V Patriot. Despite of American pressure, they went for the Russian. They’re well aware of future repercussions and consequences once you’re in the US trap. They’ve also cent a very clear picture to the American administration about their future procurement for their Navy in which again no plan for F35.

Yea they’ve bought some critical ones from the US for their Navy. The reason of that was USN and IN has similar objective and interests which are very specific (Containment of China’s power projection in the oceans).

We literally compromised our National Security and completely failed to identify PAF needs since 90s when the American administration has blocked the sales and stopped transfer of our “paid” F16s. Till today, we’ve just 70+ frontline fighters (mix of BLK15 + MLUs and BLK50/52) which I believe should be around 250+. JF paper can’t be your front line. Mushy diverted funds of BlK50/52 towards the Earthquake which was IMO one of the worst decision else the balance of power would be different (somehow) but again US manufacturer.

We have tested Typhoon and Rafale in early 2000 (before India), however we went for the FC which was specifically for the replacement to get rid of old fleet + dual engines A-5 in the PAF inventory.

Despite having enough money to make a good deal with French, we continues with the American for vipers (keep in mind, there was no issue of cash either at that time span). Why simply because of our TTs obcession with the Americans (sorry to say) but thats what it is and the reason why we are struggling.

TOT concept (reality V Facts): TOT doesn’t mean that you will get full capability of making everything in-house. Thats more like a info, knowldge sharing. That was exactly what happened with the Indians in PAKFA project. They thought that Russians will probably share all the ingredients, but it was indeed a setback for them as well despite’s spending massive amount of money. So the concept of TOT is very different from what we usually understand. You still dependent on the foreign components even Chinese are dependent on Russian for “Engines”. We’ve lost the ATAK deal just because of American Engine in Turkish 129. TOT Is more like you’re getting knowldge (50-60%) of the things. This is vogue concept that you’re getting everything in transfer.

IAF selection of non-US hardware for their front-line (primary) weapon is a great lesson for PAF decision makers. Late and delays in critical decisions already cost us alot because of some ******

 

[Nilgiri]

He, psychic, cuirassier....let's hope their posts increase. One learns from them.

Is cuirassier a fauji?

No idea....maybe ask him? haha

 

[rockstarIN]

Agree! I exactly said the same thing when IAF went for Rafale over US F-18. Indians did a great job technically from theirs point of view. They’ve secured their future. From the past few years, IAF has bought many US military hardware includes C17, C130 and P8i. Except P8i, none is critical, first line or a primary defense weapon I would say.

.

You will see a patern here. Our major procurement is for Navy (barring Apache and arty) where IN and USN have a common interest and will be operating as allies in Indian ocean region. Whereas IAF is concerned, no front line stuff(Fighter AC, LR & MR Sams) will be procured from Uncle Sam.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No idea....maybe ask him? haha

I wish you had taken part in the recent discussion with P***; so many of @PanzerKiel's points so clearly highlight the issues on the Leh-Akhnoor front (considering it a united segment) that we had been discussing. I am still sitting trying to get on board the fact that the other side knows with such blinding clarity the totality of the situation, especially the points relating to logistics and to terrain. He has pointed to each and every single aspect at a very broad level; there are obvious additional issues such as the shifting balance of power due to the three elements changing fastest - artillery, helicopters and air superiority. Perhaps a fourth - air defence.

One of the most potent weapons we have is our logistics capability, the ability to build roads. This has increased substantially over the years, but there is still so much to be done before we can achieve tactical superiority through improved (and directed) communications. That is not even touching cantonments (nothing but tents available in the majority of camp locations), artillery parks, that avoid proximity to civilian settlements, air bases (nothing north of Srinagar, other than Daulat Beg Oldi, and that is not suitable for fighter operations), and fixed air defence focal points - mobile air defence, considering the type of formation that is contemplated today, is a very long cry away. Sadly, even field hospitals and base hospitals need very substantial enhancements.

The Indian Army cannot even begin to think of tactics and strategy before these sinews of war are put in place. The horrid story of Operation Trident underlines the point.

@jbgt90

 

[masterchief_mirza]

JF-17 has a deep impact on IAF psyche. Especially after 27th. IAF wants to prove to its audience that it can match a domestic project.

Sir you're spot on. Amateuristan is a very ego-driven place.

 

[manga]

I think IAF just responded to the call by Prime minister modi of being "Aatm Nirbhar".
Yes ofcourse it wont be possible to be Aatm nirbhar with every defence equipment we need, but in the current time of pandemic it would have been difficult to explain the spending on foreign toys. These are desperate times and you know it when trump is scolding Apple as it is thinking of moving and expanding to India instead of US.

With the spending of Tejas there is no explanation required as this creates jobs in India itself. With all the other good features it will bring to the indigenious aerospace industry.

 

[Suriya]

Despite frantic effort by Lockheed Martin India ditches F-21 for LCA

I've saying for a long time even when fans damn sure India will buy 120 Rafales.

LCA was the direction Modi govt had in the back of the mind and it's the forces took some time to come around.

Let me predict India could buy 18 more Rafales.
After that only 5th Gen fighters and drones, of course LCA variants to cover legacy aircrafts that retired or retires.

 

[Ali_Baba]

One Should take a bigger look to scheme of things. More than F-16/F-21, India Ditched US war against China as well. I strongly believe all this developments are sudden. Indian Govt. is now of the view that not many US companies are coming to India from China... During Bilateral talks as well India said many times to US that to rise against China/ rather than militarily India need to stand Economically as well.
Economics of F-16/F-21 was, American companies coming to India/ditching China.. India gets financial edge and Start buying their Weapons.. No companies/No weapons.
But this may change Once Donald Trump lost second term.
This pattern is taken up by All US allies in Pacific except Australia. Neither Seoul NOR Tokyo is against Bejing untill Trump is their in the US.
China keeps earning from The US companies, and we buying Weapons is Just stupid strategy.

The Americans and most of western europe have ALREADY fulfilled their end of the Bargin by transferring large amounts of their middle-class based IT industry to India to give India the ability to stand up economically. Now that India has all the IT work, they have NOT fulfilled their end of the bargin by acting as a hedge against China and are now asking for more..ie manufacturing.... Who would trust India now?