Despite frantic effort by Lockheed Martin India ditches F-21 for LCA

[Joe Shearer]

F-16 Block 70/72 and F-21 are two different aircraft. Block 70/72 is arguably the most advanced aircraft in its class already (numerous satisfied customers as of late). F-21 was supposed to be an even bigger leap with no competitor in its class.

India does not have the technical prowess and knowhow to match these two birds in local capacity. Even with sourced parts, a local product cannot match American 5th generation class parts and designs.

Nevertheless, big relief for Pakistan.

That would be true for several other products on offer in the MMRCA. The overwhelming motivation at the moment is to break away from the huge expenditure of foreign technology, and to allow indigenous technology the space to grow.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

Look.

When you are the customer, and you walk into a big store to buy stuff, you do not necessarily go for the biggest and baddest stuff out there. You look for stuff which appeal to you in personal capacity. This is the point.

When it comes to manufacturing aircraft, Lockheed Martin is miles ahead of anything French can produce and offer. Even F-16 MLU (Block 40 class) was more than a match for much hyped Su-30 MKI in capable hands. Imagine what Block 70/72 would be capable of, and F-21 is supposed to be a bigger leap with stealthy attributes.

Indians are on much better terms with the French and feel comfortable dealing with them. Indians are absolutely weary of American politics and want to ensure their political independence. To their credit, they are nobody's poodle which is a good thing.

Bruh, i hate to disagree, but I think the Rafale is every bit as competent as the F21. The only advantage of F21 vs the Rafale is the claimed "5th gen tech" which is a pretty shallow statement. The main thing that makes a 5th gen tech is stealth and the airframe for F21 is pretty much the same as F16, so how can it be stealthier?

 

[dbc]

That is not my logic, but your words being put in my mouth.

You obviously don't like it when I say that India chose LCA over F-21. You say it is not about inferiority or superiority, but surely the Indians must have weighed all options including capabilities. You don't just opt for a fighter that your air force is going to use for the unforeseeable future. The IAF has faith in LCA and that is a big part of their decision.

read this

it’s the logic that you are hell bent on imposing upon the Indians. India didn’t chose the LCA over MMRCA 2.0, India appears to have cancelled the tender.
India is planning deep defense budget cut speculated to be as deep as 40%

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ve-centre-rs-80-000-crore-120042900077_1.html

 

[MastanKhan]

I highly doubt F35 would be offered until it is not really next gen tech(like 10 years from now). I believe a lot of countries might have 5th gen fighters by then. More importantly, I am absolutely sure they will never agree to local production for F35, so yea, i don't think we will buy it in large numbers even if it is offered. We might buy like 36 fighters as we have done for the Rafale if the economic situation is good. On the other hand, if F35 is offered for local production(almost 0% probability), I see no reason not to go for it.

Hi,

If India buys the F35---then better say good by to your sovereignty for good---. Then you will become the US errand boy---.

 

[Dalit]

read this

it’s the logic that you are hell bent on imposing upon the Indians. India didn’t chose the LCA over MMRCA 2.0, India appears to have cancelled the tender.
India is planning deep defense budget cut speculated to be as deep as 40%

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ve-centre-rs-80-000-crore-120042900077_1.html

I think your mind reading skills are terrible. I have not imposed anything on Indian members. In fact you should read Indian reactions in this topic before getting angry and pointing fingers at me.

Most Indian members have already said what I have said. There are many considerations before opting for any hardware. Indians feel comfortable with their homegrown fighter. They understand that it is not sanction prone. They understand that with further tweaking and optimisation it can reach to F-21 levels. It is a domestic project. Etc. etc. I think it is a good choice.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think there is also a lot of politics involved. Indians feel betrayed by Trump. The Indians wanted primary role in Afghanistan, but instead are playing second fiddle. The Modi regime had high hopes after Trump got elected. They were convinced that Trump would isolate and boycott Pakistan into oblivion. It hasn't happened as the Indians had envisaged. The Americans haven't even been able to place Pakistan on FATF blacklist. Something the Modi regime has been yearning for. Basically disappointment from the Indian side. After 27th India was hoping for full support from its ally, but it did not come. The Americans responded lukewarm and even dispelled the notion that F-16s were missing. Trump has gone to extreme length to protect economy. The Indians were expecting a lot of concessions like in previous years under Obama.

It is doubtful that anybody in the MEA hoped for anything substantial from as insubstantial and quixotic a character such as Trump. The effort has been to keep him neutralised; being ostensibly in India's corner more or less denies him the opportunity to be in any other corners. His hemming and hawing and very obvious desire to get involved in Kashmir showed how the wind blew.

So this development is not against Trump. He will continue to be our favoured chief guest at fan melas. The development says simply that we need to grow our aircraft, our ship-building, our armoured vehicles, our artillery technology as well as we have grown our missile and space launch vehicle technologies.

 

[zhxy]

Su57 is not at all a 5th gen jet in its current state. I am personally really hoping they improve upon it. If they can do that, it would be like a wet dream came true. Russian jets are a lot cheaper than western jets and I'm pretty sure Russia won't say no to TOT and Make in India.

To receive 100% of the TOT for the Su-57 (including engine and electronics technology), India needs at least US $ 30-50 billion. This is a huge cost, but India can afford it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

During this Covid19 crisis---india saw the true side of the US---angry and belligerent---US---trying to blame on anyone---careless and inconsiderate US---the unpredictable US---.

I very much doubt that india would want to be a totally dependent partner to such a super power---.

Pres Duterte was right when he stated---agreements with the US don't mean anything nowadays---.

Indian decision has confirmed that---.

Precisely so. Duterte is a bounder, but he is street-smart; he has read the US under Trump correctly. The best course of action is to flatter the hell out of the buffoon, and keep one's options entirely open.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

If India took f16 or f21 or f-18 that would sureoy put indian sovernity under threat just as with pakistan in 80s when they blackmailed and stopped sending jets we already paid for and then their spares as well.

Same thing is faced by turkey with respect to TAI atak engines and f-35 lightning II aircraft of turkey.

They pulled strings even on germans for weapons and on saudiz.

Its a wise decison to stay away from dependance on suppliers such as united states who sell with strings attached.


Pakistan learnt its lesson. Never again will we depend on american systems to defend ourselves. They use levearge in ur time of need.

As for tejas 84 and 40 = 120+ more are worth it?

Well what will tejas replace? The old mig 21 which are so old and are called flying coffins tejas is a huge upgrade and more modern and cheap .

Just as jf17 is work horse and heavy lifter for paf tejas tejas would replace mig 21 and be same for indian air force.

However its an indian flying that aircraft even f35 in indian hands would not be as credible a threat to Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

When I mentioned F16 blk70 for India it by default meant whatever aircraft is being meant for india---would not make any different---.

It is not a matter of matching those birds---it is a matter of Indian sovereignty & power to decide what to do at times of crisis---.

Again, in precise terms, this is what it is.

 

[Dalit]

If India took f16 or f21 or f-18 that would sureoy put indian sovernity under threat just as with pakistan in 80s when they blackmailed and stopped sending jets we already paid for and then their spares as well.

Se thing is faced by turkey with respect to TAI atak engines and f-35 lightning II aircraft of turkey.

They pulled strings even on germans for weapons and on saudiz.

Its a wise decison to stay away from dependance on suppliers such as united states who sell with strings attached.


Pakistan learnt its lesson. Never again will we depend on american systems to depend ourselves. They use levearge in ur time of need.

Wow. The Turkish example is an eye opener.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

Hi,

If India buys the F35---then better say good by to your sovereignty for good---. Then you will become the US errand boy---.

It's not like there is too much choice. F35 is pretty much the only 5th gen jet on the market(apart from the Chinese jets). We had high hopes for SU57 and obviously we would have gone for that even if it was inferior to F35, but as long as it was stealth, but it turned out to be a failure. We do have an indigenous 5th gen programme, but I am pretty sure we won't see the the first prototype for at least 10 years from now.

 

[LeGenD]

Yet the IAF has not opted for F-21 despite all the hefty claims and that is exactly my point.

I agree. The IAF has weighed all pros and cons before going for LCA. That credit goes to India. Obviously politics was also a major consideration. American hardware always comes with strings attached. Indian officials won't say this too loud, but this is always in the back of your mind whilst buying hardware from Uncle Sam.

Only a fool would underestimate American hardware. Their marketing SOPs are such that their products normally perform as advertised; anybody who have exposure to IT-related business would tell as much.

Do you really think that Americans know nothing about the magical Rafale? They know much about it, and this is why they were in the position to offer a relatively superior combat aircraft in F-21 to India. However, defense-related procurement have both technical and political underpinnings; Pros and Cons are weighed accordingly. Same is true for Pakistan as well.

JF-17 was a political decision, and it paid off.

 

[Nilgiri]

The Americans also threw in the carrot for a future F-35 deal. Would India still opt for F-35 if offered?

Doubt it, because it comes with big operational strings attached (can be imposed at any time) for free-at-will operation alongside S-400 network.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And PAF is still dying to get their hands on more F-16s 70/72.

We do not want to be technology-dependent idiots. Does that say anywhere that we should go around preaching this message of self-reliance to others?