Democracy gives India edge over China, say experts

[manofwar]

I only criticize India when you guys start bashing us. Starting with Jbond in this thread (now banned) and followed up by all the other Indians.

Though if you want me to speak completely objectively, I have no problem with the concept of "democracy in a developing country". I think it can be a very good advantage, look at Brazil for instance.

But there are plenty of democracies in the developing world that have failed too, like Nigeria, Sudan, Columbia, etc. Or the Democratic Republic of the Congo!

Why shouldn't we look to the best examples instead?

Because Indian situation is especially unlike any other developing democracy in this world..........Check out this page-
Demographics of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India has over 2 thousand ethnic groups and four major language families!!!

 

[AADHAAR]

I completely agree with you. I am not anti democracy at all. I just like the way china has managed to lift itself up. It had visionary leadership which has guided the country so well. I want Bangladesh to learn from this. What we lack in Bangladesh is quality leaders with vision and the ability to translate that into action. China had that, democracy or centralised governance does not matter if a government can provide a law and order and a solid future to its citizens.... Most people would be content.

ask any chinese (commoner, not CPC) is he or she thinks he has a solid future... feel free to use the internet (eh.. try to avoid people's daily though ).

Back to BD, well... we're really the same people - India, Pk, BD.

Now, imagine what would happen if tanks roll over thousands of people at Rajpath, or in Dhaka or Lahore.

Heck, even the british didn't dare try that here.. they were wiser .. because that doesn't work here.

Mahatma Gandhi emerged as a leader in India.... Mao-zedong in China.

That sums the difference.

 

[ChinaToday]

ask any chinese (commoner, not CPC) is he or she thinks he has a solid future... feel free to use the internet (eh.. try to avoid people's daily though ).

Back to BD, well... we're really the same people - India, Pk, BD.

Now, imagine what would happen if tanks roll over thousands of people at Rajpath, or in Dhaka or Lahore.

Heck, even the british didn't dare try that here.. they were wiser .. because that doesn't work here.

Mahatma Gandhi emerged as a leader in India.... Mao-zedong in China.

That sums the difference.

let compare shall we

china infrastructire 40 years ahead
china millitary 40 years ahead
chinese iq 105 india 81
chinese economy 4 times of india
chinese average income $6000 india $2000
chinese gpd 7%-10% india 5.5%-7.5%
chinese fx reserves $3trillions india $300 billion

now you tell me who has a solid future? indian or chinese

 

[timetravel]

calling India a democracy is like calling a human dog```its a insualt to the very idea of democracy....India is probably the only relatively big economy that still has like feudal society

here comes out the inner feeling..

this post makes it clear that India Being a Successful and biggest Democracy is a bitter pill to swallow for the Chinese. They know India is both democratic and economically strong (while they themselves are living a nightmare of life under ccp for the same economic progress)

So what they do - come out and give discourse on how India is not a democracy.

 

[timetravel]

let compare shall we

china infrastructire 40 years ahead
china millitary 40 years ahead
chinese iq 105 india 81
chinese economy 4 times of india
chinese average income $6000 india $2000
chinese gpd 7%-10% india 5.5%-7.5%
chinese fx reserves $3trillions india $300 billion

now you tell me who has a solid future? indian or chinese

NO DOUBT ITS INDIA... it takes time to develop economy. In future India would be a bigger economy then China... So yes we got a SOLID and BETTER future.

BUT we reach there with PEACE AND HAPPINESS AND FREEDOM

U get economy on basis of zero freedom and lack of peace (Which is taken away by the draconian ccp controls)

 

[JayAtl]

I personally did not immigrate to UK. My dad came to UK to study and stayed---- I had no choice in the matter but won't change it. He came to study in the UK as his father did, who did so due to the colonial influence of Britain.

Bangladesh is my second home and have visited china.

Bangladesh has democracy, it's often very chaotic but it is still a democracy. What I saw in china was order, a society being pulled in the same direction.

For developing countries maybe democracy is not necessarily the only vehicle for economic growth. From Bangladesh perspective, what do do people want.... It would be solid reliable present and a hopeful future. Chinese model may provide that better than democracy.

Democracy in developing world and democracy in the west is very different and in some way exactly the same in that the elite is unaccountable. I am one of the millions who marched in London against the war in Iraq.... Made not a bit of difference.... Democracy is not a cure for everything. I am not a communist and not particularly left wing. All I say is a country requires visionary leadership and china has got it.

I have not historically seen first hand chinas development as I have visited the country only once. But what I saw was a great country, an ordered country where everyone wants to progress. For Bangladesh it is a great country to emulate on.

Great a tourist perspective is always so steeped in facts. always like the ones who grow up in bosoms of democracy wishing communism on others. you would have been either driven over by tanks or thrown in labor camps had you marched in chain against it's govt. The world's developed nations are at 99 : 1 advantage happening in democracies, yet your great gut feeling is communism is better for developing countries. I can't debate tourists...

 

[Abingdonboy]

Can you tell me how I'm being "oppressed"?

I've gone to several protests and rallies criticizing CPC corruption. And I haven't been arrested for posting disparaging messages on Facebook either?

What freedoms do I lack? I've been all over the world, the only place where certain classes of people are considered sub-human by their fellows are the Dalits, who can't even walk within 20 feet of a high-caste person.

In terms of social development indicators, India is 40 years behind China (according to The Economist).

Life expectancy, child mortality, maternal mortality rate, access to sanitation, malnutrition... India is behind Bangladesh in all these development indicators.

Something has failed in India, and this time you can't blame democracy. Democracy was India's advantage, but you failed to use your advantage, and now you have more poverty/malnutrition than Sub-Saharan Africa.

Dude, it is WAAAAAAYYYYY too early to pass judgement on who has "won" or "lost", it is still very early in the day. Given that India is to grow at the same level if not more over the next 50 years as China the tale has not been finished yet. Both nations have MAJOR issues that need to be resolved India is ahead in some areas, China is ahead in others. This mentality is corrisive-India and China should be comparing themselves to the West not each other. That way all their 2 billion+ citizens will benifit.

 

[Abingdonboy]

My friend, do not let India tarnish your perception of democracy.

Democracy CAN work very well in the developing world. It can be a big advantage to a developing country, if it is implemented right.

The current Chinese system (Socialism with Chinese characteristics) was designed specifically for China. I don't think it would work if other developing countries tried to use this system.

Sir don't write off India's democracy, there may be flaws (just like in every democracy) but there are tangible benifits to the Indian people with democracy in their nation. There is accountability and the government can't just throw farmers off their land to make roads or development they have to negotiate and offer compensation. If CMs under perform they are kicked from office.

 

[Viet]

let compare shall we

china infrastructire 40 years ahead
china millitary 40 years ahead
chinese iq 105 india 81
chinese economy 4 times of india
chinese average income $6000 india $2000
chinese gpd 7%-10% india 5.5%-7.5%
chinese fx reserves $3trillions india $300 billion

now you tell me who has a solid future? indian or chinese

any proof for this for the bold part, you chinese superior race?

 

[timetravel]

I only criticize India when you guys start bashing us. Starting with Jbond in this thread (now banned) and followed up by all the other Indians.

Though if you want me to speak completely objectively, I have no problem with the concept of "democracy in a developing country". I think it can be a very good advantage, look at Brazil for instance.

But there are plenty of democracies in the developing world that have failed too, like Nigeria, Sudan, Columbia, etc. Or the Democratic Republic of the Congo!

Why shouldn't we look to the best examples instead?

One sane post. I agree its not fair to look to a successful democracy like India and say China should have been democratic. There are several examples of failed democracies as well.

See I have no problems with the route China has taken. It is there wish. I hope China becomes Democratic as Chinese citizens now deserve to have the rights. (I would say its discrimination and dictatorship if China doesn't get FULL democratic rights in next 15 years)

But yes the credit must be given where its due- and that is that despite having scores of examples where democracy has failed in developing countries Indians has successfully developed a very good system of democracy for themselves and successfully become the biggest democracy in the world.

A successful Democracy is better then successful Communism. A controlled Communism which can uplift its peoples standard is better then a failed democracy. Failed democracy is better then a failed communist state.

So India falls in 1st. China falls in 2nd (though its ok but I would say it was unfair for Chinese people as Chinese people were never allowed to have a chance to be a DEMOCRACY by CCP. I would have loved to see China being a democracy and become dictatorship if dmocracy had failed. So we never know how successful Chinese would have been with democracy. Perhaps they might have pulled it off successfully which would have been better then the CCP rule of today. For this CCP is solely guilty)

But Chinese people now having achieved the success and looking to become more stronger over the next 2 decades, must get the full democratic rights and CCP must go. If CCP is still there after 2025 then it makes no sense.

In short I have no probs with the route taken by China so far (as it is not always easy to have a democracy like India for which CCP can be given benefit of doubt given they have achieved much economic success). But I don't approve of the aggressive CCP acts towards its neighbors, and I am doubtful of peaceful intents of CCP, and it is to be seen if CCP will relinquish power peacefully to allow full democratic rights to Chinese people in future- who DESERVE it every bit.

but still would have loved China to be a successful democracy for last few decades. Though I also stand by its better to be late then never. So I hope whatever happened is past, but hopefully Chinese would get full democratic rights and a multi party system in future (between 2025-2030) and the ccp would be AXEDDDD .

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

but still would have loved China to be a successful democracy for last few decades. Though I also stand by its better to be late then never. So I hope whatever happened is past, but hopefully Chinese would get full democratic rights and a multi party system in future (between 2025-2030) and the ccp would be AXEDDDD .

The CPC will probably hold power for 10-20 more years.

Political liberalization will only happen AFTER China has become a developed country.

This is the East Asian development model. First become a developed country, then political liberalization.

 

[JayAtl]

In school we are taught arithmetic . and also taught ratios. When 99% of developed countries are democracies and 1% are non democracies. In my school of thought , that makes democracies an overwhelming successful project.

secondly, it still baffles me how anyone can cite the china model as successful when you know the model is steeped in secrecy, fudged numbers, heavy censorship. Again in my school of thought, I have learned that if you can't verify the data you can't make an assumption. how do bench mark against propaganda?

Even if you want to believe China, how can you call the world's second largest GDP which is still a 3rd world country as being successful? 300 million out 1.3 whatever billion having a better standard of living is not a model for success. It's better than nothing but nowhere close to be praise worthy like you lot do here. You would imagine at near 7 trillion GDP you would not have a part time worker student flipping hamburgers in the US, earn more in a day than 90% of China's population earns in a day. Either that money is been largely scammed by the few or those numbers are fudged.

 

[dreamer53320]

The CPC will probably hold power for 10-20 more years.

Political liberalization will only happen AFTER China has become a developed country.

This is the East Asian development model. First become a developed country, then political liberalization.

I think we need to clarify if political liberalization equals western style democracy. I'm all for more political participation from the grass roots. But people from mainland should think twice before really going forward for western style democracy (it's a one way trip). I surely hope China won't adopt western democracy blindly like us. Democracy is a relatively young political system, and it's not proven to work yet (how many democratic systems actually have lived longer than any of China's past dynasty?)

Taiwan's democracy is only 12 years old. Look how chaotic we are right now. As we stand right now, there's no way to have any constructive conversation in congress for the good of all people. It's always bickering and non-sense and defamation and reality show.

When I was in high school (like 6 years ago) I never thought I would say something like this. But I'm really envy of all the 5-year, 10-year, and 15-year plans put forward by the communist party. A developed country doesn't necessarily mean it has to be democratic. Or put it another way, democracy is not the only system that can have their people's voice heard, right?
This is like the fallacy of capitalism must and only can exist in a democratic system (which now we know is totally false).

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I think we need to clarify if political liberalization equals western style democracy. I'm all for more political participation from the grass roots. But people from mainland should think twice before really going forward for western style democracy (it's a one way trip). I surely hope China won't adopt western democracy blindly like us. Democracy is a relatively young political system, and it's not proven to work yet (how many democratic systems actually have lived longer than any of China's past dynasty?)

No, I don't think that we should ever try to emulate Western-style democracy. It wouldn't work for us, so it is better to come up with our own version.

When PRC leaders say they want to increase democracy, what it really means is increasing transparency and accountability in the system, which is exactly the right way to go.

Political liberalization will only really take off though, after China becomes a developed economy. Until then it will be a slow process, with the goal of maintaining stability above all else.

 

[ChinaToday]

One sane post. I agree its not fair to look to a successful democracy like India and say China should have been democratic. There are several examples of failed democracies as well.

See I have no problems with the route China has taken. It is there wish. I hope China becomes Democratic as Chinese citizens now deserve to have the rights. (I would say its discrimination and dictatorship if China doesn't get FULL democratic rights in next 15 years)

But yes the credit must be given where its due- and that is that despite having scores of examples where democracy has failed in developing countries Indians has successfully developed a very good system of democracy for themselves and successfully become the biggest democracy in the world.

A successful Democracy is better then successful Communism. A controlled Communism which can uplift its peoples standard is better then a failed democracy. Failed democracy is better then a failed communist state.

So India falls in 1st. China falls in 2nd (though its ok but I would say it was unfair for Chinese people as Chinese people were never allowed to have a chance to be a DEMOCRACY by CCP. I would have loved to see China being a democracy and become dictatorship if dmocracy had failed. So we never know how successful Chinese would have been with democracy. Perhaps they might have pulled it off successfully which would have been better then the CCP rule of today. For this CCP is solely guilty)

But Chinese people now having achieved the success and looking to become more stronger over the next 2 decades, must get the full democratic rights and CCP must go. If CCP is still there after 2025 then it makes no sense.

In short I have no probs with the route taken by China so far (as it is not always easy to have a democracy like India for which CCP can be given benefit of doubt given they have achieved much economic success). But I don't approve of the aggressive CCP acts towards its neighbors, and I am doubtful of peaceful intents of CCP, and it is to be seen if CCP will relinquish power peacefully to allow full democratic rights to Chinese people in future- who DESERVE it every bit.

but still would have loved China to be a successful democracy for last few decades. Though I also stand by its better to be late then never. So I hope whatever happened is past, but hopefully Chinese would get full democratic rights and a multi party system in future (between 2025-2030) and the ccp would be AXEDDDD .

agreed if china is a democracy we will be alteast 100 years aheads of india no doubt about it , singapore , hk, taiwan and korea are fine examples what china can do if we are a democracy