Delhi & Tokyo may ink pact for India’s first Bullet Train during Shinzo Abe’s visit

[jung41]

ItE="I S I, post: 7964514, member: 166428"]Then who you aimed this at?[/QUOTE]
They understand well and not aimed at you so why you quoting

 

[surya kiran]

From higher cost, you came to Western Ghats and made them seem like culprit.
Still not able to translate these so called ghats responsible for being 4 times more expensive versus Mumbai Ahmadabad route.

Now to stupid theory of western Ghats:

IR knows better than you about these Ghats or the surrounding geology. Because they ply their trains day in day out.
Despite that IR came with the following national Diamond Quadrilateral:
Are they stupid or you know better than them?

View attachment 277955

On to stupid Western Ghat red herring again:

Japan is a renowned earthquake prone nation whose terrain is 68% mountainous, as is the case of Norway. Despite this natural handicap, Japan plies its Shinkansen (Japanese word for high speed trains) every day of the year, non stop from dusk to dawn, for which Japan is known as Mecca of high speed trains. But India/Pune can not, because it has Western Ghats

And your needle stuck in a groove on Western Ghats?

I understand that you want to push your point. But its futile against the facts, neither it is tenable.

Now skate around as before, but at your own peril.
I am done with you.
Do not engage with me further.
Because I have restrained you by ignoring you.
I do not hate lunatics, because its none of their fault to be one.
But intransigent people with tons of ego - Yes, I do willfully hate those people.

!

Ok. Let me try to dumb it for you. I thought you were smart. But I was wrong. Unfortunately you seem to lack basic common sense

Cost for a project is dependent on various factors. One of the factors is technology. Because the topography is much harder to lay down a line. A 10th pass will understand this. But, you seem to ignore this simple fact.

I went further to explain to you why it is so , when you brought in your argument of how technology is there to do it. Technology is there, but it just that it is expensive.

The Japs may have all the technologies in the world, but simple project management will tell you, its easier and cheaper to lay a line in a plain, than on a mountainous terrain. You are going round in circle and unable to understand a simple concept.

Then why is the Mumbai Ahmedabad corridor going live before the Mumbai Pune corridor, genius? Because the IR is using its brains unlike you.
If you pass dumb assessments you will be replied to. Else reply logically.

 

[Sky lord]

The main costing is done per kilometer of track laid (track alone is responsible for around 85% of the project cost) beside few other factors and coaches.

Mumbai Pune distance:

View attachment 277903
.

Did I misunderstand this table? How can rail distance be less that Ariel? How can any distance be less than Ariel?

 

[sankranti]

Currency ?? Lets not predict that would be better !!
Difference B/w US and Rest of world (Accept some Industrialized countries like japan, Germany)
What US manufacture nobody can so at what price they sell everyone has to buy after all choice is pay what they demand or empty Hands So, There currency gained that does not make any difference whereas In case of India and china they manufacture what almost 100 other countries can do, so to win orders our price should be cheep. This is by low Labour rates or devalue our currency. If our Currency go higher we loose all exports in fact end up Importing everything which we can produce means Industrial disaster.

LOL........ its better dumb@ss like you stop pretending to understand economics.

US is the global reserve and trade currency. THAT is how it funds its growth. But that age is coming to and end.

Euro had made itself an attractive reserve currency, but Euro recession has put a dampener to that plan.

The Yuan is now making inroads as a reserve currency and India is supporting that move. This will lead to a stronger Yuan and once they delink it from the USD it will gain in strength.

In the next 15-20 years, Indian Rupee will also make its as a Reserve currency in the global market. That will lead to automatic strengthening of the rupee. That is how global currency works, not my cheap labour and kinder grade economic theories

You seriously Need a Doctor

After talking to Retards like you , I agree

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

LOL........ its better dumb@ss like you stop pretending to understand economics.

US is the global reserve and trade currency. THAT is how it funds its growth. But that age is coming to and end.

Euro had made itself an attractive reserve currency, but Euro recession has put a dampener to that plan.

The Yuan is now making inroads as a reserve currency and India is supporting that move. This will lead to a stronger Yuan and once they delink it from the USD it will gain in strength.

In the next 15-20 years, Indian Rupee will also make its as a Reserve currency in the global market. That will lead to automatic strengthening of the rupee. That is how global currency works, not my cheap labour and kinder grade economic theories



After talking to Retards like you , I agree

So you mean US currency is stronger because "US is the global reserve and trade currency" By printing Green Notes "THAT is how it funds its growth." not through there high Technology progress.
I see your Economics, Now dont quote me again.

 

[sankranti]

So you mean US currency is stronger because "US is the global reserve and trade currency" By printing Green Notes "THAT is how it funds its growth." not through there high Technology progress.
I see your Economics, Now dont quote me again.

LOL..... how else can I expose your Rubbish and show what a fool you are

US currency is strong because all over the Globe people HAVE to purchase Oil in US currency you dumb@ss.

The only nation who defied the US and sold it in other currency was IRAN and they were put in axis of evil bracket and sanctioned imposed on them, ensuring they cannot sell their oil to anyone.

This ensures ALL the nations in the world HAVE to purchase US currency If they want to purchase Oil.

All US has to do is print this currency and sell it to ALL other nations in the world. THAT is the power of the US currency.

Once that happens all the nations now have ton's of US currency so they end up doing all sort of global trade in US currency thus making it SUPREME.

You unfortunately have no understanding of global economics other than school grade, "cheap labour" is what determines currency strength.

 

[Rangila]

Did I misunderstand this table? How can rail distance be less that Ariel? How can any distance be less than Ariel?

This site gives such numbers:

I think its where you want to end up.

For example, when you reach Mulund suburb, bordering Thane area, its already a part of greater Mumbai.

But if you want to continue to Mumbai central station or churchgate then you add apx 50-60 Kms from Mulund suburb. So that adds up. But basically Aerial = nautical miles are always shorter, which is a basic fact.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

Here 'they' means we. If this thing is going to cost what a flight will cost, then we should also not expect a lakh people to travel on it. I am fine with public infrastructure projects getting constructed at breakeven or even a little less than break even, if millions are going to use it. But this thing, I am afraid is not that. We are not learning from other's lessons here. If we subsidize some regular passengers with an infrastructure project then it is fine. But subsidizing high cost railway, that too at a risky price should have been debated. Sadly we would have more discussion about stupid remarks by politicians than real issues like this in India.

Even USA is still considering whether high speed rail is profitable. Chinas bullet trains are said to be unprofitable for a long time now. And they have crushed their bleeding airlines more. Indian airline industry has only one profitable low-cost airline(I have no sympathy for them though). But my point is instead of spending money on creating alternatives for high cost travel, we can spend on projects targeting more number of people.

Well, India is a country of Billion+ population. No one mode of transport is ever going to be sufficient.

Right now, it may make sense to fly lowcost airlines than to take HSR, but flights are never going to keep up with the projected growth in passenger travel and population explosion in the near future, let alone in the longer run. Besides, flights are not going to connect tier-2/tier-3 cities as efficiently as the HSR's. That is not even considering the environmental impact of hundreds of millions flying daily or the cost of petroleum that will inevitably go up.

HSR's are truly long term investments and are perfect for an overcrowded country like India in the long term. We will need multiple modes of transports - express ways, highways, slow trains, semi-high speeds, HSR's, flights, inland-waterways.

The longer we put such investments off, the more painful we are going to make it to ourselves. With the land acquisitions going to get a lot messier in future, today may be the best time to make these investments.

Besides, this may be the best deal we are going to get for sometime from Japan, which is still smarting from its earlier loss in Indonesia.

I think Delhi Mumbai route would have been a better choice coz Economics dictates that the connectivity between the 2 power centers of the economy should be the best
Ahemdabad is the Sixth most important Economic center after
Delhi-NCR
Mumbai
Bangalore
Chennai
Hyderabad

I believe the plan is to later connect Ahmedabad with Delhi in the next phase. Bodes well for another of Japanese mega-investment in the same route - WDFC/DMIC.

Besides, taking up an entire stretch of Delhi-Mumbai as a pilot, would have been too much of a risk, IMO.

 

[qcninja]

The main costing is done per kilometer of track laid (track alone is responsible for around 85% of the project cost) beside few other factors and coaches.

Mumbai Pune distance:

View attachment 277903

Mumbai Ahmedabad distance:

View attachment 277904

Less KM = Less expense.

I dont think bullet train will be useful for 100 km. A very short distance.

 

[Rangila]

I dont think bullet train will be useful for 100 km. A very short distance.

The 650 km long high speed rail corridor was proposed to run from Pune railway station to Ahmedabad railway station via Mumbai. The point at which this route would touch Mumbai was to be decided when the feasibility report was prepared. The pre-feasibility study for the Ahmedabad–Mumbai–Pune corridor was completed by a consortium of RITES, Italferr and Systra


Indian high-speed project moves forward | International Railway Journal

 

[rubyjackass]

Well, India is a country of Billion+ population. No one mode of transport is ever going to be sufficient.

Right now, it may make sense to fly lowcost airlines than to take HSR, but flights are never going to keep up with the projected growth in passenger travel and population explosion in the near future, let alone in the longer run. Besides, flights are not going to connect tier-2/tier-3 cities as efficiently as the HSR's. That is not even considering the environmental impact of hundreds of millions flying daily or the cost of petroleum that will inevitably go up.

HSR's are truly long term investments and are perfect for an overcrowded country like India in the long term. We will need multiple modes of transports - express ways, highways, slow trains, semi-high speeds, HSR's, flights, inland-waterways.

The longer we put such investments off, the more painful we are going to make it to ourselves. With the land acquisitions going to get a lot messier in future, today may be the best time to make these investments.

Besides, this may be the best deal we are going to get for sometime from Japan, which is still smarting from its earlier loss in Indonesia.

If a bullet train is going to be laid on completely new tracks it is just like an airline with much more cost to build the route because land and infrastructure cost a lot. HSRs haven't been a success anywhere I know of. I will give you that flights have a higher environment impact. But the very definition of high speed rail means it will have few stops and far between. Compared to that flights have practically unlimited number of 'tracks' for any route between two cities. I have just shown you how HSR's are not efficiently connecting cities. Airways need only increase in hangar space and airport facilities. And aircraft can choose to switch routes anytime they want much easily without interfering with other flights in same route.

Land acquisitions will not be more of a problem in future. They may be costlier but the legal hurdles will come down dramatically with the new acquisition laws.

HSRs on separate tracks are not next generation, but just reinvention of wheel, just that this time it will be a much costly wheel throwing away centuries of investment on existing railways.

Again, almost interest-free loan is a really good offer. But not for building just about anything. In the end it is a loan and the budget for repayment will have to be pulled from other development programs. Our priorities should align with the projects.

For a comparison, we can buy 30 Airbus A380s(our low cost airliners use much cheaper jets than that) with 40 year lifetime with the same money and ferry them between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. My opinion is that the government should not venture into high cost travel/transport as yet. There are better things to do now. May be a couple of decades later.

 

[sankranti]

Again, almost interest-free loan is a really good offer. But not for building just about anything. In the end it is a loan and the budget for repayment will have to be pulled from other development programs. Our priorities should align with the projects.

For a comparison, we can buy 30 Airbus A380s(our low cost airliners use much cheaper jets than that) with 40 year lifetime with the same money and ferry them between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. My opinion is that the government should not venture into high cost travel/transport as yet. There are better things to do now. May be a couple of decades later.

Here is the problem with that logic.

100% of the Money has to be Raised INSIDE India. If we get a loan it will be at high interest rates.

100% of the money to purchase Airbus will go OUTSIDE India.

90% of the money to Maintain Aribus will go OUTSIDE India.

100% of the money to purchase Jet Fuel will go OUTSIDE India.


Now with this HSR project,

Japan would cover 80% of the project cost, and India would purchase 30% of equipment from Japanese companies.

Possibly 20% of the cost will be borne by special purpose vehicle, and 70% of the equipment purchased and sending will be INSIDE India.

100% of the fuel will be from INSIDE India (electricity)

100% of Maintenance spend will be Inside India.

THAT is the different.

 

[TianyaTaiwan]

congratulations!

 

[kadamba-warrior]

If a bullet train is going to be laid on completely new tracks it is just like an airline with much more cost to build the route because land and infrastructure cost a lot. HSRs haven't been a success anywhere I know of. I will give you that flights have a higher environment impact. But the very definition of high speed rail means it will have few stops and far between. Compared to that flights have practically unlimited number of 'tracks' for any route between two cities. I have just shown you how HSR's are not efficiently connecting cities. Airways need only increase in hangar space and airport facilities. And aircraft can choose to switch routes anytime they want much easily without interfering with other flights in same route.

Mate, the same cost argument will be made everytime HSR's are going to be built - even 50 years from now.

There is a physical limit to the speed the existing rail tracks can support due to bad planning and age of the underlying infrastructure. More importantly, I wouldn't trust the current IR staff on existing lines to handle semi-high speeds, let alone the HSR's. Laying new tracks will bring in professional people into IR and that is a good thing.

But the very definition of high speed rail means it will have few stops and far between. Compared to that flights have practically unlimited number of 'tracks' for any route between two cities. I have just shown you how HSR's are not efficiently connecting cities. Airways need only increase in hangar space and airport facilities. And aircraft can choose to switch routes anytime they want much easily without interfering with other flights in same route.

On the contrary, airlines are strictly point to point modes of transport. HSR's are going to have regular stops all along the way and I believe, there are going to be atleast half a dozen stops between Mumbai and A'bad when the HSR's do actually come up. Are you suggesting that the airlines will be able to connect those many stations more efficiently than the HSR's? In fact, HSR's are going to serve the passengers from tier-2/3 cities on the line better than any airline currently can. I suspect it is going to be more useful for the folks in places like Vadodara, Surat etc.

Airways need only increase in hangar space and airport facilities. And aircraft can choose to switch routes anytime they want much easily without interfering with other flights in same route.

If it was that simple, we would have much higher concentration of air travel in rural/semi-urban areas than we have today. Heck, the whole state of Karnataka is served by no more than 2 "functioning" airports.

Land acquisitions will not be more of a problem in future. They may be costlier but the legal hurdles will come down dramatically with the new acquisition laws.

I am not so sure about the new acquisition laws, but like you said, the costs are only going to increase making it more and more unviable in future.

HSRs on separate tracks are not next generation, but just reinvention of wheel, just that this time it will be a much costly wheel throwing away centuries of investment on existing railways.

Whether or not HSR's are a re-invention of the wheel, we don't have any other option. You know as well as anybody that increasing the speeds on existing tracks has a limitation - unless you plan on digging up the entire stretches and re-laying the tracks.

For a comparison, we can buy 30 Airbus A380s(our low cost airliners use much cheaper jets than that) with 40 year lifetime with the same money and ferry them between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. My opinion is that the government should not venture into high cost travel/transport as yet. There are better things to do now. May be a couple of decades later.

What about intermediate cities like Thane, Surat, Vadodara, Anand? Do we fly Airbus A380's for each of those cities? In fact, it is not economical to connect those centers even with small jets. Also, there is a limit on how many flights you can have in busy skies (especially around major urban clusters like Mumbai/NCR).

The intent is NOT JUST to connect Mumbai and Ahmedabad. Mumbai and Ahmedabad are already very well connected with flights. But the advantage with HSR's is that they connect all intermediate major townships like no airliner can.

My point is, airlines will always have their place in transportation landscape of a vast & overcrowded country like India. But to depend on airlines to move hundreds of millions of people across the whole country is just not good long term strategy.

 

[AndrewJin]

There are procedures in place. Please also remember that wear and tear on track is not just a singular function of speed. More times worn out or unbalanced wheels along with sudden braking causes more damage.
Owing to high speed, HSTs are designed with significantly reduced unbalanced mass, resulting in not just smooth ride, but lesser maintenance too.

Dear Anant_s, have u read the technical details of this railway?
I have read. Frankly speaking, not good news, a lot of limits ensure only Japanese products can be used. Cross section and distance between tracks is too small, I don't get it, it's a new railway not upgrading an old one. The standards are low and not open, like Taiwan HSR, totally kidnapped by Japanese companies and in abysmal financial crisis. Standard gauge? Does it mean there will be no through services from "upgraded" old lines to new lines? And prices of the lowest class seem really expensive.