Defending Militancy: Why they kill civilians, attack the state

[Chogy]

Guys, I understand the difference. I have Muslim friends. I have NO problems with Islam, or any religion, so long as it is freely chosen and never imposed. But for every Westerner like me who gets it (I like to think I do) there are dozens of lurkers or casual browsers who'd read statements like his, and their first thought, before they close the web page, is...

"Wow, that's some scary s**t. I guess those Muslim guys really do want to take over the world." And the bias AGAINST Islam increases. Western press takes advantage of those fears, feeds them, and the spiral into a highly polarized world continues.

 

[Chogy]

..........

 

[very]

Guys, I understand the difference. I have Muslim friends. I have NO problems with Islam, or any religion, so long as it is freely chosen and never imposed. But for every Westerner like me who gets it (I like to think I do) there are dozens of lurkers or casual browsers who'd read statements like his, and their first thought, before they close the web page, is...

"Wow, that's some scary s**t. I guess those Muslim guys really do want to take over the world." And the bias AGAINST Islam increases. Western press takes advantage of those fears, feeds them, and the spiral into a highly polarized world continues.

I'm happi at least U don't scare from those pplz. Infact Islam gives equal rights to Muslims and non-Muslim. Freedom for all religions as long as their practitioners don't hurt each other.

 

[muse]

Infact Islam gives equal rights to Muslims and non-Muslim. Freedom for all religions as long as their practitioners don't hurt each other.

As long as you non-Muslim behind does not take it to Mecca and Medina and as long as you grant our right to draft and implement legislation diminishing your constitutionally granted religious liberties and as long as you don't get any ideas about being equal before the law or even god and as long as our cultural practices are not interfered with.

 

[muse]

And if you really want to see the truth about how Islam and freedom of religions all go together, I would refer you to thehttp://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/129971-no-doubt-caliphate-will-back-again-3.html#post2116445

 

[Mughal1]

For you Quran is the greatest book, for a Christian Bible is the greatest book and for a Hindu the Geeta and Vedas are the greatest book.
Every one claim that these books are given by God himself to which no one has proof. And on what basis you say that you are the chosen religion. Do you know that there are other religion which teaches that Humans should not even harm single sensed living creatures and people who follow such religion with the highest standard have not caused any harm to other living being physically or mentally and at the same time dedicate the life for service to the world. As per your idiotism these people are not eligible for a place in Gods palace(Haven) and are doomed to the Hell to wander the underworld

Dear brother ashokdeiva, you claim that there is no book for which there is proof that it is from God. To me it seems that this claim of yours is based on your lack of understanding of the quran if I may put it that way.

I would simply ask you to define proof and how the proof proves the claim and then I will try and show you how the quran proves to be word of God.

The reason I am asking for your own definition and explanation is so that I could see whether you understand the concept of proof and proving or not. Because before we start we must have common ground to start from ie we both need to be on the same wave length.

This will not only help both of us as to where we stand but also help educate people here who talk about proof and proving but do not know what it is all about or how it all works out.

Of course anyone else is also welcome to try and help define and explain proof and proving regardless mullah or secularist or even atheist.

regards and all the best.

 

[humanfirst]

I'm happi at least U don't scare from those pplz. Infact Islam gives equal rights to Muslims and non-Muslim.

No it doesn't.As per the supremely just shariah,the value of testimony(in court) of a non muslim is half that of a muslim.And non muslims are not allowed to propagate whatever religion they believe in.Non muslims need to pay jizya(protection money)to live in an islamic state ruled by shariah,and for which there is conveniently no cap.Non muslims can not be part of the islamic govt. You call this equality?

 

[Mughal1]

No it doesn't.As per the supremely just shariah,the value of testimony(in court) of a non muslim is half that of a muslim.And non muslims are not allowed to propagate whatever religion they believe in.Non muslims need to pay jizya(protection money)to live in an islamic state ruled by shariah,and for which there is conveniently no cap.Non muslims can not be part of the islamic govt. You call this equality?

Dear humanfirst, when we talk about message of God people should look at a divine message as directed to themselves as individuals and this in my view is a better approach.

Problems arise when we look at divine message as a people thing. By doing so we lose the proper perspective on it and become confused. It is because people are divided into groups with conflicting interests

All information regardless divine or accummulated by human expeience is human heritage and belongs to all of us equally therefore we have right to access it as and when we wish. Of course we can credit groups responsible for getting that information to us eg hindus, parsis, jews, christians, muslims, indians, greeks, arabs etc etc etc.

After the information has reached us no matter how it got to us ball is in our court to take advantage of it to benefit ourselves from it rather than dismiss it and lose the advantage.

If we then learn how to put this information together to make sense of it then we can see what is right and what is wrong. This is where sincere and open discussions become very useful because thereby we are more likely to arrive at right conclusion that can help us unite to be able to work for the good of each other.

In my view as explained in another thread all scriptures and relevant information is worth having and because it will help us see in which direction we should go.

Going through this process it seems to me that the quran is most worthy scripture for our knowing and if possible following in comparison to all other scriptures.

This in sense of sticking with interpretation of the book in its own proper context and not as per muslim interpretations by various sects.

There are two islams or two versions of it and majority muslim version is problematic as you have pointed out yourself. The mainstream muslim version is problematic because it is invention of ruling elite and their mullahs. It is problematic because it is mostly illogical and irrational nonsense based upon legend, magic, mystery and superstition. Not only that but it is also oppresive, unjust, unfair, brutal, regressive and a recepe for disaster. It is because the most of ummah has been following this version it is in state that we see it. It is a make belief version of islam ie people have invented some beliefs in the name of islam and that is all they try to justify from the quranic text and fight over it. They are not interested in letting the quran speak for itself and be led by it.

Even here on this forum you can see that when it comes to proof and proving muslim are not there at all because they do not know what proof means and how you prove something. Such lack of knowledge in people speaks for itself how genuine they are in their claims about islam.

If we look at muslim forums in general people are fighting over concepts like tawheed= monotheism and shirk=polytheism or sunnah= prophetic tradition and bidah= innovations or taqleed= conformity in shariah law as invented by imaams of fiqh and ghairmuqalidiyat= conformity free and whether jesus is alive or dead and if he is coming back or not and so on and so forth.

People are utterly confused as to definitions of terms and all sorts of rituals are being fought over. All this because do not educate themselves to be able to judge truth from falsehood and right from wrong.

Most people approach things like brainless animals rather than as people with wisdom. So no wonder then that we humans are getting bad to worse day by day.

Perhaps it is the so called educated people are more to blame because they are not spreading the knowledge as if out of jealousy and negative mindset given by negative competition on one hand and stupidity of ignorant people who are not interested in gaining knowledge for themselves on the other.

Coming back to address the point you raised that islam discriminates between muslims and nonmuslims, men and women etc etc. There is no negative discrimination in islam whatsoever as per quran but of course there is plenty as per muslim behaviour but that is not islam that is what people do and it is not right that we blame the scripture for their wrong doing.

Here we have two things a)prove islam from the quran and b)then see if it is what you assume it to be. If one does not even know what proof is and how to prove something yet one blames something that is not blame worthy then one only has to blame oneself for not being true to oneself.

Concept of proof and proving is very important to understand because all the rest rests upon it alone. Islam is logical and rational deen and that is why proof and proving is its very foundation.

Since people do not follow islam on basis of evidence instead they follow their make beliefs hence all the problems the human world has and they are not going to go away till people come to the quran and approach it the right way regardless they claim to be muslims or nonmuslims.

regard and all the best.

 

[ashokdeiva]

On the contrary, we propose education and scientific tradition.
I did not propose force, rather I suggested that you read the book in order to establish it's authenticity.
I claimed that if you read the book (Quran) in a unprejudiced objective way, you will know it's the real thing.

Eventually, It 's no Muslim's job to make any one convert; job ends as soon as the message is delivered, rest any one is free to make up their own mind.

And why dont you read the rest of the religious books from others and also acept that what is said in Quran is also said in other books with diffent situations.
You be a good muslim and let me be a good hindu and others be good in what ever religion they belong to. No monkey business of doing research on which is the Gods gift, rather accept every book is Gods gift to the world

 

[ashokdeiva]

Dear brother ashokdeiva, you claim that there is no book for which there is proof that it is from God. To me it seems that this claim of yours is based on your lack of understanding of the quran if I may put it that way.

I would simply ask you to define proof and how the proof proves the claim and then I will try and show you how the quran proves to be word of God.

The reason I am asking for your own definition and explanation is so that I could see whether you understand the concept of proof and proving or not. Because before we start we must have common ground to start from ie we both need to be on the same wave length.

This will not only help both of us as to where we stand but also help educate people here who talk about proof and proving but do not know what it is all about or how it all works out.

Of course anyone else is also welcome to try and help define and explain proof and proving regardless mullah or secularist or even atheist.

regards and all the best.

what you say, I agree with you 100%. these books can not be proved to be athentic, but its the belief that makes these books athentic, if it is so then there is no question that the other books not representing God and only Quran represents God is a dillusion that most Muslims are into, why is that a Hindu like me accept that all Books are a path to God and why are people like Zarvan and Janubaba THINK THAT ONLY QURAN represnts God.
As per truth the non believers in Islam do believe in their own religion that they were born in. why is that fanatics want to establish a Global Islamic dominance? is it because of insecurity or infiriority complex.
If you see in my earlier post, I have never contridicted the originality of the Quran but you can see people from Islamic religion saying that Quran is the only true book and the rest are all fake, what is your comment on people like them

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the people of those militant/mis-guided mindset are the biggest enemy to Jinnah Sahib's Pakistan

and we must deny them of this opportunity to destroy our country.....


they are rats, roaches.....crush them all.

 

[VCheng]

the people of those militant/mis-guided mindset are the biggest enemy to Jinnah Sahib's Pakistan

and we must deny them of this opportunity to destroy our country.....


they are rats, roaches.....crush them all.

Rats and roaches thrive on garbage and a lack of cleanliness, don't they? Killing them is only one part of the solution, while ensuring sanitary conditions would be important too.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Rats and roaches thrive on garbage and a lack of cleanliness, don't they? Killing them is only one part of the solution, while ensuring sanitary conditions would be important too.

it isn't often that i agree with you

but yes, you are very much correct

which is why i say there's a lot of in-house cleaning needed. And it wont come from hanging a paper sign on the door and wishing the problem away.

it requires political will. And balls.

i have made it clear that yes - killing isnt the only solution. A multi-pronged stategy is required and the people must be taken into confidence when making such important decisions. Unfortunately, in an honour-based society it is difficult to reason with people who have already been brainwashed so badly that they think their actions are correct. Those that can be rehabilitated should be embraced. Those that can not, will likely die with a gun in their hand or an explosive vest around they chest

 

[VCheng]

it isn't often that i agree with you

but yes, you are very much correct

.............................

You will, in time, learn to appreciate my points of view, I am sure.

I agree with your post 100% (broken down as 30% yes, 30% affirmative, and 40% aye).

 

[Zarvan]

Defending militancy: Why they kill civilians, attack the state

KARACHI:

An audio recording explaining why militants attack the state, military and civilians and engage in kidnappings and bank robberies has recently surfaced online.

The conversation is described as being between Harkat-e-Islami Uzbekistan’s Mufti Abuzar Hifzullah and an unnamed religious scholar reportedly employed by the Army. A website states that the conversation took place via a ‘wireless set’ in Shaktoi, South Waziristan.

Hifzullah could refer to Mufti Abuzar Khanjari, who BBC has reported as being part of the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi’s Qari Zafar group.

The two discuss issues such as the destruction of mosques, legality of killing civilians and accepting US aid.

Inter-Services Public Relations Director General Major-General Athar Abbas said he was unaware of any such recording. As far as the presence of religious scholars or clerics with military units is concerned, Abbas said, “I don’t know how you would define a cleric, but the military has chaplains who are part of each unit. They are non-combatants, so they remain part of the base camp. They give sermons, but these are authorised, vetted and provided by the army. The chaplains are supervised by the commanding officer and do not do anything that is not in line with what he says.”

The audio cannot be independently verified, since the individuals do not name themselves and there is no time frame available for when the audio was recorded.

The recording begins with a discussion of the 2007 military operation at Lal Masjid, after which there was a surge in suicide attacks. The military scholar questions the existence of arms in Lal Masjid and asks why militants now attack mosques.

Hifzullah justifies this by saying that killing ‘munafiq’ [hypocrites] in mosques is legitimate, as is killing religious scholars – or anyone else – who does not agree with the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan’s stance.

The conversation is an interesting insight into how militants and the army use religion to justify their work. Religious texts are cited by the men, albeit with very different interpretations.

The men debate accepting US aid. Hifzullah says it is a sin to take aid from infidels [referring to the US] to kill Muslims, which the military scholar challenges with the assertion that militants took American aid to fight in Afghanistan in the 1980s, which Hifzullah accepts. However, his justification is that it is permissible to take aid from non-believers if it does not “harm Islam and Shariat”.

The scholar challenges Hifzullah, saying that the military works for its lawful salary and does not take money from anyone.

According to Hifzullah, robbing banks is ‘legal’ and their ‘right’ because it is ‘maal-e-ghanimat’ [spoils of war]. Hifzullah says they attack banks which have government accounts. “Emptying Pakistani banks is jihad … the money has been earned by selling our fighters,” [likely referring to people handed over to US custody after 9/11]. He also defends kidnapping people for ransom; but says they do not kidnap minors.

The scholar asks how many Pakistanis have been killed compared to Americans. Hifzullah’s reply is that killing Pakistani officers is the same as killing Americans, as they consider them as one.

The scholar repeatedly brings up attacks on civilians, such as those in Lahore’s Moon Market and the December 2007 attack in Kamra on a Pakistan Aeronautical Complex bus that was transporting the children of air force employees. He asks why militants attack women and children, when doing so is forbidden in Islam.

Hifzullah says these ‘children’ were older and their deaths were a consequence of the militants’ campaign against the armed forces. “It is a military school; children also die when you are killing adults.”

Hifzullah thanks God for the 2005 earthquake which “killed thousands of military personnel”.

Defending militancy: Why they kill civilians, attack the state – The Express Tribune

Sir Army first attacked them and killed their children and women and other civilians on the orders of America so now they are hitting back