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Defending Militancy: Why they kill civilians, attack the state

And what authentic proof do you have on this regards, bring me a nutral source.
Did God directly present the holy Quran to the people no. It was told by the first prophet and was writen by his assistant. The prophet is not the God he is just a messanger of the God as it is believed.
So is other religious books.
You belive in yours, let the others belive in others and you keep to your juristriction of practicing your religion and so does the rest.
If you pock your nose in to others stating that yours is the true form then be ready for some big blows as you have always had in this form.
Thank God you are not in any other country making this kind of statements face to face with people of other faith. if you had done this in real life other than internet, either you would endup killing some one or you would get killed by some one.

This is a simple case.

Like scientific tradition, we study a hypothesis and the resultant theorems.
We test, if the theorems can be deduced from existing proven theorems.
If all is in line then we accept the new theorem.

I invite you to do the same, and if it makes sense you can make your own mind.
 
Mr Their King James version has 77 Chapters and their another Version has 68 Chapters and their are many more versions with different chapters Sir go check it first yourself

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------


Mr most Christians have almost changed all of the bible not some changes the bible is different buy all the versions of Bible and check them I challenge you to tell me the same things in the bible and also pick bible of the same version which was their 100 or 200 years ago and they will be not the same
You know, i saw a mullah deliver a speech along these lines. You ask me to "challenge" you. If i give you references and observations will YOU be able to look them up? Or will you ask your local cleric?

Dont make claims or challenges you cannot meet. I on the other hand have READ the Qu'ran, the Bible and the Gita. The gita, not in full yet.
 
Ashok Deva and MEch

Some basic things you have allowed to go unquestioned and have betrayed a very Indian mind set -- first of all which Jewish "book" is claimed as "revelation" which Christian book is claimed as "revelation"- Revelation, not divinely inspired.

When you do not even question the lies of these lunes, you do yourselves a disservice.

Never bother to read the last few pages. I kinda just jumped in....:sad: :sniper:
 
This is a simple case.

Like scientific tradition, we study a hypothesis and the resultant theorems.
We test, if the theorems can be deduced from existing proven theorems.
If all is in line then we accept the new theorem.

I invite you to do the same, and if it makes sense you can make your own mind.
you apply the theorem and try to understand that every religion is a path to God and there is only one God. You call him by the name Allah, and I call him by the name Shiva.
So do not ask for others to convert or abandon a tradition that is followed for thousands of years.
if you people are still so much into the dillusion that yours is the right way then you can dwell in that dream, you are not your leaders are going to change the people of other faith by force or with breed and butter.
 
The new testament, regarding Christ is not "revealed" to Jesus. Rather, it is an account of the events [/QUOTE

good now take it further - when the lunes talk of jewish book - whgich "book" are they talking of? Is the Pentateuch "revealed"???


So essentially we have the lunes making a false claim and of course the conclusion therefore has to be ........... (fill in the blanks) Show fence sitting Pakistanis how it's done
 
You know, i saw a mullah deliver a speech along these lines. You ask me to "challenge" you. If i give you references and observations will YOU be able to look them up? Or will you ask your local cleric?

Dont make claims or challenges you cannot meet. I on the other hand have READ the Qu'ran, the Bible and the Gita. The gita, not in full yet.

Mr go ahead I challenge you can't most Christians don't even know that in which language Bible was revealed than even in English their are several versions their sects have different bibles and even the same bible of a sect has many many contradictions
 
you apply the theorem and try to understand that every religion is a path to God and there is only one God. You call him by the name Allah, and I call him by the name Shiva.
So do not ask for others to convert or abandon a tradition that is followed for thousands of years.
if you people are still so much into the dillusion that yours is the right way then you can dwell in that dream, you are not your leaders are going to change the people of other faith by force or with breed and butter.

On the contrary, we propose education and scientific tradition.
I did not propose force, rather I suggested that you read the book in order to establish it's authenticity.
I claimed that if you read the book (Quran) in a unprejudiced objective way, you will know it's the real thing.

Eventually, It 's no Muslim's job to make any one convert; job ends as soon as the message is delivered, rest any one is free to make up their own mind.
 
Mr go ahead I challenge you can't most Christians don't even know that in which language Bible was revealed than even in English their are several versions their sects have different bibles and even the same bible of a sect has many many contradictions

The Bible isn't "revealed." Mech explained this well. Only words direct from the mouths of acknowledged Prophets like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, are revealed. When the sentence begins "The LORD said to me, Tell the People..." then it is a revelation. As was the message to John in the appropriately-named Book of "Revelations."

The Bible combines the Jewish Scriptures with the New Testament, the "Gospels", which is Greek for "Good news." The New Testament is NOT a list of rules to live by, although there is guidance... it is primarily a testimony of those who acknowledge Jesus as the Christ.

Debating Christianity, Judaism, and other religions with those who have studied it their whole lives, you will not win that debate, and to make statements like "It has changed many times and morphed out of recognition" is simply untrue. We have thousands of copies of the New Testament that are dated right back to the time when the disciples were alive and eyewitnesses roamed the Earth. They are the same words.

Let people believe as they will. No single group has the secret password to Heaven. And to answer your question, the Christian Bible was of different languages, Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
 
I am posting this article out of its relevance to the thread topic. It is mainly for non-Pakistani members, since most of the Pakistani members here must already be aware of every fact mentioned here.

However, I welcome the Pakistani members to go through the entire passage, and provide us with a correction to whatever has been provided wrongly, or incorrectly. Please do provide a source or a proper reasoning while doing so.

Another important part of this article - There is a video (to be found on the CSM page) of a ''reformed Brit Jihadi'' who had gone to Afghanistan to fight his Jihad, but is now working in London to keep the Muslim youth away from extremism. Some of his statements in the video are quite interesting!


Pakistan's Islamic preachers: Gateway to radicalization?

Since 9/11, Pakistan's Islamic preachers have gotten far less international scrutiny than in militant groups. But the social and religious conservatism they preach could be an even more radicalizing force.



Hawkers park their carts next to the latest-model cars of business tycoons as thousands of men rush into the Madni Mosque in Karachi city.

Inside, the atmosphere is electrifying: prayers, redemption, and celebrity sightings, as commoners get transformed into global Islamic preachers – all in the name of “Muslim victories.”

A crowd of some 40,000 worshipers is instructed by the mosque’s cleric to “spread the message among Muslims in every street, in every city.”

This is the weekly congregation of Tablighi Jamaat.

The use of the hijab (veil), the act of growing beards, and the wearing of ankle-length trousers – all symbols of conservative Islam – are increasingly the norm here. Boutiques have mushroomed for fashionable veils, and Islamic-only bookshops are flourishing in posh neighborhoods.

All of this would be fine, say analysts, but Pakistanis who choose not to follow such strict requirements feel suffocated, and many believe that the trend of converting more and more Islamic preachers will only further push society into radicalism – and ultimately lead to more silent support of militant groups.

Since 9/11, Pakistan’s militant groups have been under scrutiny internationally. But it’s the accelerating social and religious conservatism that is more socially corrosive, providing the gateway to radicalization, say some observers.

“Especially after 9/11, there is increasing extremism in terrorism-hit Pakistan. These preachers, by radicalizing various layers of the society, will ignite it – so these groups and their activities should be put under the counterterrorism [microscope] rather than ignoring them as nonpolitical and nonmilitant preachers,” says Arif Jamal, author of “Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir.”

All ages participate – men with long beards or short beards, caps or turbans, shoulder bags or backpacks. Teenage boys, eyes wide, listen to the narrations of experienced preachers of their mission travels to America, England, and Africa.

In July, Federal Interior Minister Rehman Malik reportedly called the missionary center of Raiwand, the headquarters of Tablighi Jamaat near Lahore, the “breeding ground of extremism” and terrorism in Pakistan, and said it had a major role in brainwashing Pakistanis. According to police reports, he said, many terrorists under arrest in Pakistan had attended the congregations with Tablighi Jamaat.

The statement triggered sharp criticism from top politicians, including former caretaker Prime Minister Chaudhary Shujat and current Chief Minister of Punjab Province Shahbaz Sharif.

Mr. Malik later played down his statement (Such is the threat that the the Home Minister squeals?)by saying it was distorted, but many analysts say it rang true.

“The continuous indoctrination of [the] orthodox version of religion at the Tablighi missions [events] turns a large number of people into Islamists and jihadists. Even when they do not take part in violent jihad, its loose organizational structure helps militants conceal their identity, and they provide it popular support,” says Mr. Jamal.

Tablighis shrug off these allegations as conspiracies. “We are nonpolitical and only focus on spreading the message of Islam, which is of peace and love across the world,” says Syed Imran, an imam and member of the Tablighi Jamaat religious movement for almost a decade. “Not on a single occasion has any local or international investigating agency found the faintest of evidence of militancy in our movement,” he says.

“[The] jihadis challenge us for not waging war and call us passive Islamists. We tell them ‘we are engaged in greater jihad by purifying Muslims and bring them on the right path,’ ” agrees Mohammad Javed, who is actively involved in missions.

While Tablighis belong to the Deobandi sect, another group, the Dawat-e-Islami of Barelvi, has a similar proselytizing campaign in Karachi, where their international headquarters are situated. Known as Faizan-e-Madina, the sprawling headquarters has followers across Norway, Australia, America, Canada, and England. It also has centers in Texas, Chicago, and California. Followers usually wear a green turban, as green is associated with the prophet Muhammad.

Then there is Hizb ut-Tahrir (Liberation Party), another nonmilitant but highly political organization. It is working for the reestablishment of a caliphate, or Islamic state in the Muslim world, and is dismissive of the idea of democracy.


Contributing to the radicalization of Pakistan?


Many analysts believe that these groups are not perceived as a serious threat because they are not armed; yet the views of all three of these groups are contributing to the radicalization of Pakistanis across all classes, they say.

“[The groups] insist that people’s only valid identity is their religion, and they thrive on a narrative that Muslims all over the world are the victims of conspiracies,” says Nadeem Farooq Paracha, a cultural critic and columnist for the leading English-language newspaper Dawn. “They are shrinking secular spaces in the public sphere.”

“While they seem nonpolitical, what they propagate ultimately provides ideological ground to militant outfits. Because they are not armed does not mean they are tolerant of other views,” adds leading rights activist Farzana Bari.

Early this year, progressive groups campaigned to abolish the controversial blasphemy law, which bans “insulting the prophet”: Islamists, including green-turbaned preachers castigated them as “infidels.”

In 2006, after a stampede in the women’s congregation of Dawat-e-Islami left several severely injured, followers did not let male medical workers help injured women because it they considered it “un-Islamic for strangers to touch women.” Several women died because of the delay in providing medical assistance. “It has trickle down effect. These men use private patriarchy for compliance of their female family members and children so the radicalization process multiplies. They are pushing for more religious and conservative society by shoving them in centuries-old Arab world,” says Ms. Bari.

While Taliban militants use guns and bombs, the preachers use nonviolent tactics, such as securing support of world-class cricket players and pop stars, which columnist Mr. Paracha terms as “poster boys” for attracting millions of youths who idealize them.


Popular appeal

Famous former Pakistani cricket captains like Yousuf Youhana, now named Mohammad Yousuf newly converted to Islam, now preaches and travels for missions. Saeed Anwer and Inzimam-ul Haq now run Halal meat businesses. Pakistan cricket sensation Shahid Afridi, has joined Tableeghi Jamaat. All of them visit colleges and universities to preach. Their videos carrying message of Islam on YouTube attract hundreds of thousands of hits.

Junaid Shikeh, once a pop-singer now looks after Jawat-i-Islami’s TV channel. The former business graduate is now pursuing eight-year studies to become a chief cleric. “My life has changed completely,” says Sheikh. “I used to sing Summer of ‘69, my ideal was Bryan Adams. Now I have thrown the guitar in a store room and soon there will be a breaking ceremony of it,” he stated matter-of-factly.

“Their tentacles are spreading among politicians, bureaucrats, law enforcement agencies. From poor to fil.thy rich, their claim of being peaceful helps them attract [the] Muslim Diaspora especially those who live in kind of a social guilt of living in western society,” argues Mr. Paracha.

“They are creating a new urban culture. Since General Zia’s rule of the 80s and the first Afghan war, our traditional tolerant culture has been assaulted by all sides, whereas the best way to defeat extremism is to promote culture and education in our society, says Ahmed Shah, who heads the National Arts Council in Karachi. “The battle is going on between the radicals and us. It is a battle over who gets to define Pakistan.”
 
I am posting this article out of its relevance to the thread topic. It is mainly for non-Pakistani members, since most of the Pakistani members here must already be aware of every fact mentioned here.

However, I welcome the Pakistani members to go through the entire passage, and provide us with a correction to whatever has been provided wrongly, or incorrectly. Please do provide a source or a proper reasoning while doing so.

Another important part of this article - There is a video (to be found on the CSM page) of a ''reformed Brit Jihadi'' who had gone to Afghanistan to fight his Jihad, but is now working in London to keep the Muslim youth away from extremism. Some of his statements in the video are quite interesting!


Pakistan's Islamic preachers: Gateway to radicalization?

Since 9/11, Pakistan's Islamic preachers have gotten far less international scrutiny than in militant groups. But the social and religious conservatism they preach could be an even more radicalizing force.



Hawkers park their carts next to the latest-model cars of business tycoons as thousands of men rush into the Madni Mosque in Karachi city.

Inside, the atmosphere is electrifying: prayers, redemption, and celebrity sightings, as commoners get transformed into global Islamic preachers – all in the name of “Muslim victories.”

A crowd of some 40,000 worshipers is instructed by the mosque’s cleric to “spread the message among Muslims in every street, in every city.”

This is the weekly congregation of Tablighi Jamaat.

The use of the hijab (veil), the act of growing beards, and the wearing of ankle-length trousers – all symbols of conservative Islam – are increasingly the norm here. Boutiques have mushroomed for fashionable veils, and Islamic-only bookshops are flourishing in posh neighborhoods.

All of this would be fine, say analysts, but Pakistanis who choose not to follow such strict requirements feel suffocated, and many believe that the trend of converting more and more Islamic preachers will only further push society into radicalism – and ultimately lead to more silent support of militant groups.

Since 9/11, Pakistan’s militant groups have been under scrutiny internationally. But it’s the accelerating social and religious conservatism that is more socially corrosive, providing the gateway to radicalization, say some observers.

“Especially after 9/11, there is increasing extremism in terrorism-hit Pakistan. These preachers, by radicalizing various layers of the society, will ignite it – so these groups and their activities should be put under the counterterrorism [microscope] rather than ignoring them as nonpolitical and nonmilitant preachers,” says Arif Jamal, author of “Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir.”

All ages participate – men with long beards or short beards, caps or turbans, shoulder bags or backpacks. Teenage boys, eyes wide, listen to the narrations of experienced preachers of their mission travels to America, England, and Africa.

In July, Federal Interior Minister Rehman Malik reportedly called the missionary center of Raiwand, the headquarters of Tablighi Jamaat near Lahore, the “breeding ground of extremism” and terrorism in Pakistan, and said it had a major role in brainwashing Pakistanis. According to police reports, he said, many terrorists under arrest in Pakistan had attended the congregations with Tablighi Jamaat.

The statement triggered sharp criticism from top politicians, including former caretaker Prime Minister Chaudhary Shujat and current Chief Minister of Punjab Province Shahbaz Sharif.

Mr. Malik later played down his statement (Such is the threat that the the Home Minister squeals?)by saying it was distorted, but many analysts say it rang true.

“The continuous indoctrination of [the] orthodox version of religion at the Tablighi missions [events] turns a large number of people into Islamists and jihadists. Even when they do not take part in violent jihad, its loose organizational structure helps militants conceal their identity, and they provide it popular support,” says Mr. Jamal.

Tablighis shrug off these allegations as conspiracies. “We are nonpolitical and only focus on spreading the message of Islam, which is of peace and love across the world,” says Syed Imran, an imam and member of the Tablighi Jamaat religious movement for almost a decade. “Not on a single occasion has any local or international investigating agency found the faintest of evidence of militancy in our movement,” he says.

“[The] jihadis challenge us for not waging war and call us passive Islamists. We tell them ‘we are engaged in greater jihad by purifying Muslims and bring them on the right path,’ ” agrees Mohammad Javed, who is actively involved in missions.

While Tablighis belong to the Deobandi sect, another group, the Dawat-e-Islami of Barelvi, has a similar proselytizing campaign in Karachi, where their international headquarters are situated. Known as Faizan-e-Madina, the sprawling headquarters has followers across Norway, Australia, America, Canada, and England. It also has centers in Texas, Chicago, and California. Followers usually wear a green turban, as green is associated with the prophet Muhammad.

Then there is Hizb ut-Tahrir (Liberation Party), another nonmilitant but highly political organization. It is working for the reestablishment of a caliphate, or Islamic state in the Muslim world, and is dismissive of the idea of democracy.


Contributing to the radicalization of Pakistan?


Many analysts believe that these groups are not perceived as a serious threat because they are not armed; yet the views of all three of these groups are contributing to the radicalization of Pakistanis across all classes, they say.

“[The groups] insist that people’s only valid identity is their religion, and they thrive on a narrative that Muslims all over the world are the victims of conspiracies,” says Nadeem Farooq Paracha, a cultural critic and columnist for the leading English-language newspaper Dawn. “They are shrinking secular spaces in the public sphere.”

“While they seem nonpolitical, what they propagate ultimately provides ideological ground to militant outfits. Because they are not armed does not mean they are tolerant of other views,” adds leading rights activist Farzana Bari.

Early this year, progressive groups campaigned to abolish the controversial blasphemy law, which bans “insulting the prophet”: Islamists, including green-turbaned preachers castigated them as “infidels.”

In 2006, after a stampede in the women’s congregation of Dawat-e-Islami left several severely injured, followers did not let male medical workers help injured women because it they considered it “un-Islamic for strangers to touch women.” Several women died because of the delay in providing medical assistance. “It has trickle down effect. These men use private patriarchy for compliance of their female family members and children so the radicalization process multiplies. They are pushing for more religious and conservative society by shoving them in centuries-old Arab world,” says Ms. Bari.

While Taliban militants use guns and bombs, the preachers use nonviolent tactics, such as securing support of world-class cricket players and pop stars, which columnist Mr. Paracha terms as “poster boys” for attracting millions of youths who idealize them.


Popular appeal

Famous former Pakistani cricket captains like Yousuf Youhana, now named Mohammad Yousuf newly converted to Islam, now preaches and travels for missions. Saeed Anwer and Inzimam-ul Haq now run Halal meat businesses. Pakistan cricket sensation Shahid Afridi, has joined Tableeghi Jamaat. All of them visit colleges and universities to preach. Their videos carrying message of Islam on YouTube attract hundreds of thousands of hits.

Junaid Shikeh, once a pop-singer now looks after Jawat-i-Islami’s TV channel. The former business graduate is now pursuing eight-year studies to become a chief cleric. “My life has changed completely,” says Sheikh. “I used to sing Summer of ‘69, my ideal was Bryan Adams. Now I have thrown the guitar in a store room and soon there will be a breaking ceremony of it,” he stated matter-of-factly.

“Their tentacles are spreading among politicians, bureaucrats, law enforcement agencies. From poor to fil.thy rich, their claim of being peaceful helps them attract [the] Muslim Diaspora especially those who live in kind of a social guilt of living in western society,” argues Mr. Paracha.

“They are creating a new urban culture. Since General Zia’s rule of the 80s and the first Afghan war, our traditional tolerant culture has been assaulted by all sides, whereas the best way to defeat extremism is to promote culture and education in our society, says Ahmed Shah, who heads the National Arts Council in Karachi. “The battle is going on between the radicals and us. It is a battle over who gets to define Pakistan.”
Islam will rise and soon take over the world its destiny no force can stop it
 
And some of you guys wonder "Why is the West afraid of Islam? Why all the bad press?" Janubaba's attitude is all too common... :undecided:

Janu, Zarvan, Chops - it all the same person -- and for my money, this individual is a police informant - because he does not have more than the islam bogey man to offer, he actually cannot debate because he simply does not not have the knowledge and what he does present is the usual mullah on lone stuff --- anyway, why focus on the likes of janu and not allow for so many others to represent ordinary Muslims? Why allow the exception to define the rule?
 
And some of you guys wonder "Why is the West afraid of Islam? Why all the bad press?" Janubaba's attitude is all too common... :undecided:

But Chogy tell me why have islamic parties in pakistan never done well in elections. I think its just that there are a small number who shout a lot. Islam is our religion. A few nutters dont represent me any more than the raving fanatics and evangalists in america represent you or the IRA represent catholics. In fact my understanding is religions on the whole tell us to be good etc

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

^^^^^^^ Muse we must stop meeting on threads and agreeing so much my wifes going to get jealouse. I think the last two posts were put on practically simultaneously lol
 
These kind of mullas are abnormal, illiteral and threat for religion and shortly they are biggest idiots of our time. He has no right to call himself Mufti but he is terrorist and nothing more and language how to punish them is same as for other terrorists.
cmon mate if you like afghan taliban, then why do you hate ttp. they are brothers from the same mother
 

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