Defence & Diplomacy: Pakistan's Acquisition of F-16s

[Paksanity]

Your point number 4 contradict your ownself. On one hand you want PAF to respect public mandate and then you say Public cant force govt to make the right choice so what is it?
Force the govt to divert funds from metro and all the other corruption projects. My dear friend i don't know about Saddam's Iraq but Qaddafi did build nice building and beautiful roads so did Asad now they lie in ruin a sight that reminds of stone age the only thing they forgot was to build a good airforce. They thought their ground troops can face any threat on the planet. Maybe Quaid e Azam for saw it and being a man of wisdom he instructed and reminded the airforce and its saved in history.
Regarding the retired personnel well that's the dillema if someone speaks he is retired and do not represent official line and the ones who are active and are in charge they are no where to be seen in public or won't speak because they are on active duty . O bahi koi tu bata da qaum ko.
My point still stands if those incharge cant handle then make a space for someone who can get the funds out of these corrupt politicians. Current Army chief did it and example is right infront of you.
Regarding if govt refuses and now what well if PAF chief offers resignation this condition i am 2000% sure it will raise alarm bells among all those who are concerned because those who are concerned and can put pressure on the govt will know the severity of the situation.
Regarding economic collapse well lets see why our economy is the way it is well mayb we were under sanctions and mayb world still thinks that we use the nuclear word a lot compare to responsible nuclear nations. If we have unmatched airforce atleast against India then we wont be using the nuclear word more often and mayb world can start easing up on us. just a thought
We respect, love and are crazy about PAF and its the pride of Pakistan and of every Pakistani. We respect the economical choices that they are making but the ground reality is with passage of everyday the threat to the east will grow more and more. I worry if things go south we don't want PAF to suffer with uncalled criticism just because they choose to be quiet and tried in whatever meager way.

What if I tell you one of Air Chief did resign after developing difference with Prime Minister? Did you care or even knew? So let's leave it at that.

For point 4, well what you know, I thought it will reinforce my point of view. Point was made to point towards the reality. The reality which can not be escaped and must be told as it is. And my dear friend, the reality is that we as a nation have not organised our selves as we should have. We do not pay taxes, work honestly, follow principles and have a very opportunist mindset. Not all but a very vast segment of society. There is a bigger problem which is a discipline and organisation. We lack it. From traffic on roads to accountability of finances, there is no discipline. As much as we want to remind ourselves of Quaid's "second to none" quote, let's start from three principles he left us. Unity. Faith. Discipline. How are we, as a nation, measure up to that? Pretty bad, no? So the point is, if we won't organise ourselves and hold our elected representatives accountable, ruthlessly, in next election then I'm afraid our economic woes will stay. In such case, new acquisitions will remain a dream. PAF will suffer from scarcity of funds and there is absolutely no way for PAF to solve this problem on its own. It is in the same ship with every one else. It will share the same fate. What PAF can do and thankfully is doing, is to make wise choices so that defence is maintained to a level where enemy would not dare attacking us. Unlike some of our fantasy dream boys here, PAF thinks pragmatic. It won't let defence go down below a certain level and would do it in limited resources. That's a tight rope to walk and leaves no margin of error. That's why you see choices which give you boost in capability with minimum disruption to finances. Money hence saved is for government to spend for the development of nation, of which PAF is also a beneficiary ultimately. Whether government pockets that money or spends it on real development is for people to judge not PAF.

We somehow want shiny new aircraft and missiles and also want PAF to share the details of what it is thinking. Recent events have shown we have more than enough lobbies working to sabotage our defence deals. Why help them? Let them work in silence. If I am not aware of details does it mean PAF generals are incompetent or traitors? Some seem to think like that. If I can't figure out what is happening then PAF generals must be selling the nation! What is this attitude?

I am very confident that F-16s and JF-17s are capable choices and in their presence our defence is not compromised. Of course, it would be much better if we had 100s of F-15s, Rafale and F-35s but it is just not possible at the moment. It is not impossible in the future but not possible at the moment. Give PAF a strong economy and they will bring in shiny new toys.

P.S. Never underestimate value of quality professional training. It has been the sole deciding factor in the outcome of many battles.

 

[true]

haha..really..
do you even have common sense...
why would country entangled in civil war attack you

Because they were scared , India moved its troops in Bengal as things got escalated in the border , iirc your east troops had left a some former disputes territory unguarded . If you recall India/east pak had the most complex territory in the world.

pak was paranoid & escalated it to a all out war . its like if China attacks USs west cost because they stationed battle ships near the south China sea .

 

[true]

I told you again and again....don't write Indian history over here. You have never cared about Bengalis in first place. In fact, Bengalis are the ones who are the pioneers of Pakistan movement during British era. You hated them to your core. Just look how you country massacred Bengalis in Assam state of India which is termed as Nellie massacre. You just capitalizes the disturbance and interfered into Pakistan's internal affairs/matter. No justification can deny that fact.

Nellie massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No one wants to read Indian crap - who always act as innocent but in fact responsible of provoking disturbance in neighboring countries.

Ask Nepalese people.

Again & again ? I believe this is the first time we have conversed anything . Also this isn't just indian history its Bangladeshi history .

The fact that India allow 30 million Bangladeshis still live in west Bengal illegally proves you are bull. Bangladesh is India's key statistic partner .

Don't compare massacre with retarded concepts of religion , the illegal Bangla population in Assam encroached native lands & hundreds died before the incident , go pick a history book .your concept defies logic are you so dense to think a million people will be quite when someone tells them to leave the encroached property? even after all that India hasn't sent them back . Besides not even the holocaust is comparable to what you did to your muslim brothers , 4 million killed 400 thousand raped .


Also I know more about Nepal than you ever could , I have relatives there .

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Again & again ? I believe this is the first time we have conversed anything . Also this isn't just indian history its Bangladeshi history .

The fact that India allow 30 million Bangladeshis still live in west Bengal illegally proves you are bull. Bangladesh is India's key statistic partner .

Don't compare massacre with retarded concepts of religion , the illegal Bangla population in Assam encroached native lands & hundreds died before the incident , go pick a history book .your concept defies logic are you so dense to think a million people will be quite when someone tells them to leave the encroached property? even after all that India hasn't sent them back . Besides not even the holocaust is comparable to what you did to your muslim brothers , 4 million killed 400 thousand raped .

Also I know more about Nepal than you ever could , I have relatives there .

you'll believe what you want to believe......

 

[true]

PAF should have the various jets of the various countries in its fleet. It should not dependent on US only.

You also have access to Chinese variations . The problem with your needs is the lack of funds to order any western products in bulks . A single Rafael is 10x more expensive than j17.

 

[barbarosa]

You also have access to Chinese variations . The problem with your needs is the lack of funds to order any western products in bulks . A single Rafael is 10x more expensive than j17.

I have not recommended for rafale but for the other jets such as F16.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

What if I tell you one of Air Chief did resign after developing difference with Prime Minister? Did you care or even knew? So let's leave it at that.

For point 4, well what you know, I thought it will reinforce my point of view. Point was made to point towards the reality. The reality which can not be escaped and must be told as it is. And my dear friend, the reality is that we as a nation have not organised our selves as we should have. We do not pay taxes, work honestly, follow principles and have a very opportunist mindset. Not all but a very vast segment of society. There is a bigger problem which is a discipline and organisation. We lack it. From traffic on roads to accountability of finances, there is no discipline. As much as we want to remind ourselves of Quaid's "second to none" quote, let's start from three principles he left us. Unity. Faith. Discipline. How are we, as a nation, measure up to that? Pretty bad, no? So the point is, if we won't organise ourselves and hold our elected representatives accountable, ruthlessly, in next election then I'm afraid our economic woes will stay. In such case, new acquisitions will remain a dream. PAF will suffer from scarcity of funds and there is absolutely no way for PAF to solve this problem on its own. It is in the same ship with every one else. It will share the same fate. What PAF can do and thankfully is doing, is to make wise choices so that defence is maintained to a level where enemy would not dare attacking us. Unlike some of our fantasy dream boys here, PAF thinks pragmatic. It won't let defence go down below a certain level and would do it in limited resources. That's a tight rope to walk and leaves no margin of error. That's why you see choices which give you boost in capability with minimum disruption to finances. Money hence saved is for government to spend for the development of nation, of which PAF is also a beneficiary ultimately. Whether government pockets that money or spends it on real development is for people to judge not PAF.

We somehow want shiny new aircraft and missiles and also want PAF to share the details of what it is thinking. Recent events have shown we have more than enough lobbies working to sabotage our defence deals. Why help them? Let them work in silence. If I am not aware of details does it mean PAF generals are incompetent or traitors? Some seem to think like that. If I can't figure out what is happening then PAF generals must be selling the nation! What is this attitude?

I am very confident that F-16s and JF-17s are capable choices and in their presence our defence is not compromised. Of course, it would be much better if we had 100s of F-15s, Rafale and F-35s but it is just not possible at the moment. It is not impossible in the future but not possible at the moment. Give PAF a strong economy and they will bring in shiny new toys.

P.S. Never underestimate value of quality professional training. It has been the sole deciding factor in the outcome of many battles.

ARIGHT let me write this post with a disclaimer. "i know after this post many of the PAF blind lovers will hate me and i probably will become the first person in the history of Pakistan to criticize PAF not for taking the money but for wrong decisions(although i would like to use the word blunders but given the history of PAF you can call it wrong decisions)"
It is not the job of PAF to worry whether it is a dictator in power or a democratically elected Govt in power they are required and expected to do the job and take tough decisions no matter what the conditions are in the country.It is not their job to start fixing punctures and make decision for the country's economy. Because countries can collapse economically but with strong defense measures you have time to bounce back. PAF is required to be ready 24/7 365 it doesnt matter if the country is going through Armageddon within. PAF is asked to keep outer threats at bay all the time as well as make decisions for future how to be ready and stay ahead of enemy so if time comes we can control enemy's sky.
Lets start with wrong decisions because i am sick and tired of hearing about 1990s without someone questioning 1980s. PAFs advesery is Indian Airforce. Lets agree that today PAF pilots are better than Indian Pilots as PAF blind fanboys say and were better throughout 1960s 70s 80s and 90s. But IAF started to make good decisons and PAF.
Now here is what i call a blunder.

1980s:
Indians were not that far ahead from Pakistan in economy during 80s but IAF made a decision to induct MIG29s in 1980-85, Mirage 2000s in 1980-85, Mig27s around the same time if not earlier i am not sure the exact year but any Indian member here can correct me if i am wrong about Mig27s. IAF figured that because PAF is better in training they can counter that with better fighters and more in numbers. This decision by IAF i believe was made in 1980s so they setup foundations for future of IAF.
On the other hand PAF decided to go for F16s and got them in 1983 well we do agree that PAF didnt know about Pressler amendment and embargo but still they put all of their eggs in one basket therefore lost money to US with nothing to show for now. So what did PAF do well lets start fixing the old punctures let get those Mirage 3s and 5s and waste money on those 3.5 gen platform and try to turn it into 4 gen platform. I ask PAF you knew by 1985 that Indians are going for ie 3 different types of 4th gen platforms with the potential of it being 4,5 gen platform. If you think Mirage 3s and 5s can become 4th Gen didn't you think 4th Gen have a potential to become 4.5 Gen. So a blunder here and this is the point where we lost the the technological edge over IAF. So PAF platform edge was lost around 1985-88.Pakistan knew a little bit about Pressler amendment around 1985-86 so PAF should've taken that into account mirages were there since mid 1970s so someone should've had a plan B.
1990s
Well no major development on Indian side except IAF started to evaluate and started to hop that Su30s will come to them they didn't have money but they did have a plan that whenever they have money they will get them and they also kept getting more mirage 2000s and Mig29s not a lot but little by little. On the other hand what did PAF do? They didn't know at the time that WOT will start and if Pakistan will ever get those F16s. What did PAF do nothing but gather up more and more of 1960s junk and fix the punctures on those F16s. I question PAF why just why didn't you think about any other platform in the year 1991 when you knew no more F16s will come and it will be ridiculous prices and hard work to get spare parts for F16s from third country who knows that you need them desperately? What was PAF thinking will we always take China into account and prepare for half of Indian Airforce? All we got was upgraded mig21s called f7s in 1988 and sadly we will get another batch of them in 1999/2000s when Indians were getting ready to take the delivery of Su30s. Why just why no other platform from some other country was not selected? France kept giving us spares for Mirages throughout 1990s why we didn't go for mirage 2000s. Were they thinking that 40 odd F16s and some 3.5 gen junk will be able to take on the whole of IAF fleet? I say if they did have a plan B in early 1990s about a 4th Gen platform then during Musharrafs early days we couldve seen them. If we introduced at least one new 4th gen platform other than f16s in early 1990s we could've working on them instead of wasting money on those stupid upgrades which a 4th gen was offering anyways. So this is where they messed up and we lost more ground. If we had lets say 30 odd mirage 2000s through out 1990s we could've accelerated the program during Musharaff and by know if we had 80 odd mirage 2000s. We could've gone for a new Air superiority platform limited in number just as it could've been the case with Mirage 2000s. And today we would be sitting on mix of Air superiority platform, mirage 2000s, we did have f16s so we wouldve had those and we would still be working on JF17 or even something better.
So at the end PAF is trying to catch up and i hope if they are doing it silently then the better do it fast. Merely great history wont work this time because now things are looking different and we want them to stop this love affair with F16 and warning them about their new love affair with JF17. They don't have much time from how things are going.Start thinking about stopping the whole of IAF fleet rather than thinnking that they will save some for China. Only this urgency in decision making and thought process can bring us to the level of Second to none in region.I ask you if today Saudis offer Pakistan $5 billion Will PAF wait for the Govt to tell the like hey guys we got 5 Billion do you want some or PAF will take the initiative and show up to get the money for a new platform that they already have tested and were just waiting for money.
So my friend in order to get what you require to do your job at the top level you don't wait for handouts. You also don't over throw Govt. Current Army Chief is a great example he knows what was needed to get the job done so he forced the Govt without over throwing the Govt. This thing is the leadership and leading from front.PAF is expected to do the same in dealing with govt regarding funds. A normal Pakistani doesnt know that PAF is being forced to be pitted against Technological advance enemy. They still think Angels will turn their EF SULA into some kind of super natural aircarft or the know JF17 is somehow is answer to every aircraft out there.
Now regarding JF17 yes good fighter but definitely not the one which can change the whole technological edge and number scenario. Secondly, now that we are in the business of selling it and need to market therefore we are forced to say that even JF17s shit wont stink. So stop with this public mandate and govt process and public eyes opening some day. PAF crews go through hard schooling and training thats money spent there we don't want that money to go down the drain because those in charge were reluctant to speak up about putting those boys in suicide machines(and i mean against enemy more in number and advance in technology). So think about saving us money and lives that way rather than waiting for a handout from croupt Govts is what we ask of them.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

I hope that you may recall @Viper0011. posted a few months or a year ago that mentioned that the approval for the remaining 18 F16's was expiring---and the paf needs to move forward fast---.

Well they did not in a timely manner----. If they had---there would have been no issues.

I would have asked AVM that how come the JF17 is superior and the J10B / C is inferior----where the JF17 is designed to take on the indian air force and the J10 series designed to take on the americans---.

That simply don't make sense---.

Next I would ask---there was a 3 years cushion provided by india over MMRCA selection---why was in not used to procure the J10's and fix the issues.

Thirdly---many a members here brag that they will have turkey help them with electronics on the F16---if they could do that on the F16's---then why could they not build for the J10's!

Thank you MK. Sorry, I was out on vacation and enjoying life, while I was banned from the PDF. Good times, I actually enjoyed life in the past few weeks

1) The F-16's are still available. NS needs to come out here one more time and meet with the republican leadership. This is the election year so it may not be worth it, but next year may be a good time. 18 more -16's would be released if good diplomacy is done and Pakistan shows majority of $$$$ for payment through her own funds.

NS would come out here, would offer people like Trump (and others) a couple of tax free business opportunities like how India does it, and it should all go fine. Good salesmanship is all it takes to connect with anyone and any nation. Plus, he's liked in Washington so it should be all good. I personally think a follow up order should already have been established for 18 more -16's with majority funding coming from Pakistan at the time of delivery. At the least, for 24 used ones as an alternative. The used ones would come on cash (40% of the price), so no opposition to that obviously and these can quickly add a big punch to the PAF within the next 12 months. But the PAF has delayed this. Timing is everything!!

2) The JFT will mature overtime and I suspect that JFT block III would be about 90% of the -16 block 52 (but with an AESA). So knowing that, it makes sense to mature that model up. I don't see a war with India as long as a Civilian government remains in power inside Pakistan. So the wait is worth it.

3) There was a time to acquire the FC-20, back when the JFT block I was going through engine and other issues around 2011-2012. Now the platform works and is being modernized. In the next 2 years, this platform might even start to produce single engine stealthy JFT's. So at this time, for a cash strapped air-force like the PAF, adding the FC-20 would be an overhead and will prove out to be useless as the JFT block II will be 90% comparable to the FC-20 (capability wise, and with additional weight carrying ability). So why introduce a new single engine platform at this time?

4) Instead of FC-20, the SU-35 or the J-11D / J-16 (and later some J-31) would make a lot more sense. Starting 2019, you won't have funding issues as a couple of billions of dollars will be available to any military arm of the Pakistani military at a short notice due to economic growth and financial stability. The current growth cycle, and everything else is clearly pointing to all things meaning some big $$ signs coming to Pakistan!!

5) If I was in the PAF's strategy, I'd do my best to get J-31's design details and pay extra to create a JFT block III or IV variant based on J-31's stealthy tech. In that process, If I have to buy 24-36 of the J-31's, I would. This would set the PAF for the future, totally on her own. You could technically build 75% to everything (one day) internally for your jets. Supplement local jets with the -16 for now (and another option in the future), the PAF should be all set.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Viper0011.

Good to see you back----. There is absolutely no doubt that the F16 is one of the finest aircraft in the industry.

You are right about the JF17 and where it is headed. As for the J10C---it is the least expensive option available---that is why I stated that---if the SU35---J11---J16 are available---then I would rather have them than the J10----.

It is just like a conversation---I say why don't you get J10---and the other guy says we can get the J16 or the SU35's---then I would---okay then what is holding you back.

Here is my beef over the issue----paf does not have a fall back option---if it has J10C's or SU35's or J16's---even 2 sqdrn's in inventory---all the talk about the F16's sanctions would dissipate into thin air and that is what the Paf has failed to acknowledge and act upon.

You know---it is just like a cop----he has a side arm---there is one in his ankle holster and maybe one in his back. He is not relying only on his side arm. That is all my issue with this aircraft.

Then the paf can go ahead and get another 30-40 or 50 used ones and upgrade them to the blk52 standards---. My ideal number would be around 150 F16's----.

 

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011.

Good to see you back----. There is absolutely no doubt that the F16 is one of the finest aircraft in the industry.

You are right about the JF17 and where it is headed. As for the J10C---it is the least expensive option available---that is why I stated that---if the SU35---J11---J16 are available---then I would rather have them than the J10----.

It is just like a conversation---I say why don't you get J10---and the other guy says we can get the J16 or the SU35's---then I would---okay then what is holding you back.

Here is my beef over the issue----paf does not have a fall back option---if it has J10C's or SU35's or J16's---even 2 sqdrn's in inventory---all the talk about the F16's sanctions would dissipate into thin air and that is what the Paf has failed to acknowledge and act upon.

You know---it is just like a cop----he has a side arm---there is one in his ankle holster and maybe one in his back. He is not relying only on his side arm. That is all my issue with this aircraft.

Then the paf can go ahead and get another 30-40 or 50 used ones and upgrade them to the blk52 standards---. My ideal number would be around 150 F16's----.

I agree with your post. But I think the number 1 reason is the funding till now. Second, I really think the PAF believes in the JFT block II and on wards very strongly. So they are holding off. I know there have been talks ongoing with Russia on SU-35, which the Chinese have also acquired too. And the relations with the Russians weren't this tight before. So in addition to the $$ and the JFT issues being top 2, the third one may be that they were waiting on the Chinese to advance its Flankers to the level of the Russians (SU-30 MKK, etc or SU-34). And now that there is the option opened directly from the Russians on SU-35, this would obviously take precedence over getting Chinese flankers (specially since the Chinese are getting these from the Russians too, which means these are more modern compared to where Chinese aviation industry is today). So this all makes sense.

The year 2019 would show you a clear picture of where PAF is at in terms of numbers of -16's and JFT block I till III, and some other option (and hopefully, a stealthy JFT variant under development or testing by then).