Defence & Diplomacy: Pakistan's Acquisition of F-16s

[hussain0216]

It's a money issue

JF17 is developing into a better plane then we hoped, it will form the basis of our airforce and PAF will try to expand its multi role capabilities.

F16 is a superb plane our pilots know it like the back of their hands, we have all support facilities in place with highly trained support staff, our pilots are top notch and have 30 years of developing flying and practicing attack/defence strategy's

We have some issues with the reliability of the USA, but Paf feels with a build up of spare parts and Pakistani and Turkish knowledge of the aircraft the benefits of flying a plane we are experts at outweigh the risks we will use this plane during war time come what may

The J10 is a good plane and whilst it gives us some advantages over the F16s ultimately it will take us a decade plus to not only induct but to train the pilots, staff, engineers etc and all 3 planes are similar multi role types

The money we would have spent on buying and inducting the J10 would have harmed the JF17 programme and the planes progress would be greatly curtailed

It would also reduce our funds for a future plane J31 etc

This way we have developed the JF17 as a effective multi role fighter, we can induct without too much fuss F 16s and have the pilots and support staff to get them up and running and we can save the funds for a possible heavy jet or Chinese/ Turkish 5th gen.


Paf plan makes sense

 

[Paksanity]

Sir with utmost respect i would disagree if i may?
Let there be no doubt that Paf is very professional and well accomplished training wise. Therefore it is criminal to put such good pilots against an enemy who have total technological advantage over such brave men. Paf is doing fantastic job in operation on the western border against an enemy with no air power/defense. On the eastern front however things are different. I would like someone to write a piece in Pakistani newspaper asking our air and ground strategic think tanks and the questions along the lines stated below..
Sir we understand that India is in dire need of doing something to show the world little bit of their muscle and they will never take this chance against China but definitely a short quick knock out punch and then back against pakistan. It will prove to world that they are real power in a region. Wether they will succeed or not thats a different story but India will not wage a full invasion of Pakistan for long period because it will bring the Nukes in business. Modern history tell us that air dominance is very important in short swift war. So the question is are we going to defend from our borders and a ground counter offense only? Wouldn't it make sense that if India does try any such action Paf equipped with 450 plus 4th and 4,5 gen fighter take the fight to the enemy inside enemy territory and annihilate the front line bases and achieving total air dominance before ground forces launch counter offensive.( I would like the aircraft number to more close to 600 so that India will never dream about taking any such adventure).Having 500 plus front line fighters mean less work for ground forces. India will use maybe 65% of their air fleet for the start now thats atleast 400 plus aircraft. Imagine if they know that PAF have 600 plus aircraft they will never ever dare. We wont look good doing a preemptive strike in case because of our Kargil history so that means we start behind. If our air dominance fighters are engaging IAF between 400km deep in their territory(neither f16 nor jf17 can do that) while our single engine aircraft wreck hovac along the front lines. It forces Indian ground forces to fight with totally no air cover that means we fight on Indian territory.
Imagine if we had 60 odd more aircrafts in east Pakistan mayb just mayb things could've been different.90000 ground troops surrendered imagine if they did have more air support things could've been prolonged enough and you never know.
If Pakistan tell the world that hey guys i am going to have a big air fleet so that even if things go south between Pakistan and India we can prolong the war and it averts the nuclear risk and i think no one but India will complain.
In regards to $$ for air fleet well the thing is Paf is suppose to be our front line of defense that means first to meet the enemy and if the strategic heads cant get the $$ out of a corrupt Govt then these so called Strategic heads need to leave because they don't understand the importance of providing security of the people. Pakistani people already suffer with so many problems such as no electricity, high prices,no jobs, no investment in education, no investment in future. So if these PAF HEADS CANT GET THE MONEY OUT THESE POLITICIANS WHO SPEND THIS MONEY ON USELESS THINGS AND CORRUPTION THEN I AM SORRY TO SAY THEY NEED TO LEAVE AND LET COMPETENT PEOPLE COME AND TAKE THEIR PLACE OUR FRONT LINE OF DEFENSE SHOULD NOT BE IMMATURE AND TIMID TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES. No more talk about traning of our boys we have no doubt about there traning their dedication and the strength but we question you who put the life of such brave men and security of the nation at risk by being too timid and taking the back seat. PAF needs to lead from front and just JF17 and F16s wont do the job until 5th gen comes. We need a third fighter and we need it now no more time wasting.
If we have big airfleet then we wont need tactical nuclear weapons in short war therfore saving 1000000s of Pakistani lives as well.
I need an answer from members here would you have 1 million ground troops with 300 odd f16s and jf17s or 500000 with 100 Su35s and 400 jf 17s and F16s? i think maintaining 500000 troops for whole year is equal to having additional 200 aircraft. Having big airforce means enemy will not try anything stupid therfore you wont have to deploy huge land forces.

PAF is a state institution and works subordinated to Government of Pakistan whether corrupt or otherwise. Government gains legitimacy from mandate it receives from people of Pakistan. Whether that mandate is true or fabricated is none of Air Force's business. Power to change government lies with people of Pakistan and not the Air Force. Vote in better people, grow the economy and work honestly. All departments of state thus will have money for their needs,including Air Force. Till then we can all build castles in the sky as much as we want. Meanwhile defence forces will continue to do whatever they can manage in meager resources.

Know one thing; defense of state is collective responsibility of entire nation. If larger society is not doing its part, other components of security will always struggle. If we keep going like this, it will be difficult to sustain current Air Force let alone expand it to higher numbers and better aircraft.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

Pakistan signed a contract in 2006 for 36 J10's---to procure at the time of their chosing.

You already told me that. But you won't be able to customize the J-10 without the open architecture system.

The J10 tone by the AVM is the same tone that paf heirarchy had when Musharraf canc elled the Saab ereiye order and got the chinese awacs---.

Paf was mad that the chinse equipment was not upto the par---they were proven wrong---.

Those Chinese Aewcs are obsolete compared to Erieye. They are not even AESA.

 

[MastanKhan]

You sir need a job,retired life isn't working out for you,the grass you have been smoking is turning your brain into a shrub,what you write doesn't make sense,if you had been so qualified then we would have been watching you in that program not Air marshal Shahid Lateef (pioneer f 16 pilot not just of PAF but of the world).
This is the only problem i have with Arm Chair Generals.......;---I was reading a magazine probably 1 year ago it stated " A man becomes a critic when he cannot be an artist, the same way that a man becomes an informer when he cannot be a soldier." The first line really fits on you sire.

Hi,

Thank you very much for your comments---and a very warm welcome to the board----.

I am not a critic----there is a big difference between me and a critic---a critic only criticizes---he has no solutions---like HASAN NISAR is a critic---he would criticize the daylights out of you---but he has no solutions for your problems.

I----on the other hand discuss an issue----with solutions---how to address the problem and how to proceed. I also talk about historic backgrounds and references and their relationship to the issues.

About 9 years ago---on this board---I stated---very reservedly---that it would take 8---10 years for integration of the JF 17---. Truthfully---I really really wanted to say between 10---15 years time period---but I realized---that I would be blown away by criticism.

And even the 8-10 years time period that I mentioned those many years ago created so much anger and animosity and fury amongst the members and me---so who is right in the end----???? Your good old dad.

I mean to say---the super studs over here were taking about 1 year and 2 years---and I would say----WTF---!

This is just one example---. You kids need to learn and understand to listen----and not to what the standard " yessir " talk is----but to the talk of dissent as well---listen to what is being said---and not what you want to hear.

Do you think that it is so simple and easy to stand up to all you guys without any substance and credence but your bravado---and to compete with others who are knowledgeable and very competent.

Just remember one thing---my information does not hurt you---other than your ego and emotions---. Your weakness is due to be cheated out by the Paf and not by me---.

Shahid Latif is a great guy---he should have been the air chief---but for the U S---.

Let me give you an anecdote---when a person starts towing the lines given by the state blindly---it is neither for the welfare of the person or for the state.

 

[MastanKhan]

You already told me that. But you won't be able to customize the J-10 without the open architecture system.



Those Chinese Aewcs are obsolete compared to Erieye. They are not even AESA.

Hi,

First of all---the chinese package for the J10C is no joke---and neither are the weapons---.

Regardless of what anyone says---this aircraft is designed to take on the american aircraft---so---it does not have 3rd rate equipment---.

Now if the paf has some issues with the equipment----it already had enough time to find the cure and solutiuons.

No---the chinese aircraft are not obsolete---.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

PAF is a state institution and works subordinated to Government of Pakistan whether corrupt or otherwise. Government gains legitimacy from mandate it receives from people of Pakistan. Whether that mandate is true or fabricated is none of Air Force's business. Power to change government lies with people of Pakistan and not the Air Force. Vote in better people, grow the economy and work honestly. All departments of state thus will have money for their needs,including Air Force. Till then we can all build castles in the sky as much as we want. Meanwhile defence forces will continue to do whatever they can manage in meager resources.

Know one thing; defense of state is collective responsibility of entire nation. If larger society is not doing its part, other components of security will always struggle. If we keep going like this, it will be difficult to sustain current Air Force let alone expand it to higher numbers and better aircraft.

Sir let me tell you the reality of the state. Ever since Musharaff left and the democratically elected Gove came to power right up until Zara e Azb more than 50000 pakistani people lost their lives while our armed forces kept looking at the state. Armed forces take a oath which clearly asks them to protect Pakistan first and then the rest follows. If Air Force is so out of sorts and can't have their opnion heard then at least it should be brought to public so at least public know what's going on. Let it be known to public that requirement to defend the country is such and such and we are not given what's required. If public is not informed about the real situation how would they be able to have their say. Do you think a common Pakistani or our politicians know the core difference between 3rd generation and 4th generation aircraft. I'm sure there are few journalists out there who can bring this to media and debate can be started and then public can put pressure. If PAF keeps telling the country that thunders and f16s are answer to everything or keep ranting about "oh we don't have money" without clearly saying the "we need such and such aircraft which is required and we have asked the govt and this is there response and therefore we are STUCK with what we have." Please use the word STUCK more often so that public may know that PAF is not happy. It's not so difficult.
Look the reality is when ever we had democratically elected Govt PAF went downhill. During 90s era no dictator came to power and we didn't get any good aircraft. Musharaff came we got more f16s and jf 17 came to fleet as an addition. So it's on PAF to do something and let's not keep fixing the puntures.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

your politicain are never shrewd especially when they have business interests in india! as for mastan, i think he is a irrelevant trying to become a relevant by saying strange things, he's like pdf's version of katie hopkins. [you should know who she is] a

the business interests in India by sherif family is purely for money and a safeguard. out of fear or animosity towards Pakistan army. this family has chosen the enemy of its enemy as its friend and would taunt GHQ .knowing well that its business interests are safe due to its hostilities towards the army. they get elected as well through hook or crook so we deserve them.
Katie Hokins is a hotie and I will take her out any night if she can spare some space in their diary.

 

[Dalit]

I believe that PAF is on the right track by inducting more JF-17s. These are the cost-effective backbone fighters of the PAF. Especially the third generation JF-17 is going to add much needed punch to the line up. The JF-17 is a blessing because it is not sanction prone and we have the ability to produce this fighter on our own shores. Its capabilities have grown manifold throughout the years and the JF-17 has been transformed into a different beast altogether.

Having said that, PAF is still in need of another premium fighter. The PAF believes that the F-16 is their premium fighter and to a certain extent it might be. No doubt, this fighter offers premium features at an affordable price tag. Although, it also lacks in certain areas and we need to acknowledge this. The F-16 isn't a Su-35 or J-10C. That is just a fact.

We need to wait for the Indians who themselves are indecisive and unable to reach a deal. Whether we go for a 4.5 or a 5th gen fighter is the only solution. There is no need for hasty decisions and we need to observe.

 

[Blue Marlin]

the business interests in India by sherif family is purely for money and a safeguard. out of fear or animosity towards Pakistan army. this family has chosen the enemy of its enemy as its friend and would taunt GHQ .knowing well that its business interests are safe due to its hostilities towards the army. they get elected as well through hook or crook so we deserve them.
Katie Hokins is a hotie and I will take her out any night if she can spare some space in their diary.

well i dont buy it. a business man and the pm of a huge debt ridden country. not to mention puppet to the saudis and some ME countries. how much did that qatari deal cost you $15 billion in 15 years? and for how much lng? no offence here lad but i think that pakistan is one of those countries that performs better under a millitary rule rather than a than a diplomatic one, in the 80's you guys were one of the fastest growing countries in the world at 8% growth pa. now your at 4.5%, sure energy shortages cost you about 1-2 % and a huge amount of the money is black money and not body gives a sh*t about the county but bi*ch at the government, and hardly anyone pays taxes, then they wonder why they are in such a mess in the first place. it's like smoking then getting angry you got lung cancer .why am i going on about your economy? the guy in the video said india's defence budget up 27% as the economy improved. sure this dont happen overnight, but the target for no energy shortages is 2017 right?

as for your taste in women?? i can tell your more interesting in t*ts and a*s, than brains. with brains come beauty.
katie hopkins really? that's desperate i assume your married right?

 

[Maarkhoor]

well i dont buy it. a business man and the pm of a huge debt ridden country. not to mention puppet to the saudis and some ME countries. how much did that qatari deal cost you $15 billion in 15 years? and for how much lng? no offence here lad but i think that pakistan is one of those countries that performs better under a millitary rule rather than a than a diplomatic one, in the 80's you guys were one of the fastest growing countries in the world at 8% growth pa. now your at 4.5%, sure energy shortages cost you about 1-2 % and a huge amount of the money is black money and not body gives a sh*t about the county but bi*ch at the government, and hardly anyone pays taxes, then they wonder why they are in such a mess in the first place. it's like smoking then getting angry you got lung cancer .why am i going on about your economy? the guy in the video said india's defence budget up 27% as the economy improved. sure this dont happen overnight, but the target for no energy shortages is 2017 right?

as for your taste in women?? i can tell your more interesting in t*ts and a*s, than brains. with brains come beauty.
katie hopkins really? that's desperate i assume your married right?

Why a British so much worries about Pakistan if that obsession comes from an Indian then i can understand.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

well i dont buy it. a business man and the pm of a huge debt ridden country. not to mention puppet to the saudis and some ME countries. how much did that qatari deal cost you $15 billion in 15 years? and for how much lng? no offence here lad but i think that pakistan is one of those countries that performs better under a millitary rule rather than a than a diplomatic one, in the 80's you guys were one of the fastest growing countries in the world at 8% growth pa. now your at 4.5%, sure energy shortages cost you about 1-2 % and a huge amount of the money is black money and not body gives a sh*t about the county but bi*ch at the government, and hardly anyone pays taxes, then they wonder why they are in such a mess in the first place. it's like smoking then getting angry you got lung cancer .why am i going on about your economy? the guy in the video said india's defence budget up 27% as the economy improved. sure this dont happen overnight, but the target for no energy shortages is 2017 right?

as for your taste in women?? i can tell your more interesting in t*ts and a*s, than brains. with brains come beauty.
katie hopkins really? that's desperate i assume your married right?

affirmative . agreed and confirmed

 

[Maarkhoor]

glad we reached an accord


its my job/research project. defence studies and strategies and fp. i chose your country as it's one of more interesting ones, that and i liked it when i went there

No its u r obsession...
Tu Laakh chupay parday mien aye rooh-e-yazeedi...
Uryaan teri tasveer ko hum kertey rahien gey....

An Indian can hide behind flags but can't hide his / her hatred and obsession.

 

[mourning sage]

No its u r obsession...
Tu Laakh chupay parday mien aye rooh-e-yazeedi...
Uryaan teri tasveer ko hum kertey rahien gey....

An Indian can hide behind flags but can't hide his / her hatred and obsession.

You know for once stop declaring who is what. If his views are different from yours, does that make him an indian!? This psychology has gotten us nowhere. Live my friend and let others live.

 

[Maarkhoor]

why is an arab interested in pakistan for? you may be from pakistan but why are you in the uae, got sick of you own country that you had to leave it. and of all countries you go to the uae. @Irfan Baloch there's something wrong with this one.

I am working in UAE and my location flag is showing UAE but my Country flag always will be Pakistan. No need to hide my true identity...May be identity crises u r suffering.

You know for once stop declaring who is what. If his views are different from yours, does that make him an indian!? This psychology has gotten us nowhere. Live my friend and let others live.

He is jumping like headless chicken on each and every Pakistan thread and shamelessly only pointing about negative things about Pakistan and Pakistani people. Where on Indian threads praising Tejas and all the other stuff...I don't have any problem with this attitude all the Indians are same but at least we should know the real identity or country of affiliation..Why he want to deceive Pakistani members.

@mourning sage
And please don't jump in the middle since you are no one to tell me what should i do and what not.

 

[Maarkhoor]

but WHY are you in the uae??
well if you call me indian, then i have the right to call you a bangladeshi, and that is what i will call from now on until you get it into your head that your obsessed and it needs to stop. besides why do you have a pakistani flag? bangladesh came to the world over 40 years ago. you can come out of your cave now, the wars over and now change your flag.

Don't you see my Country flag only location flag is showing U.A.E...don't play dumb...Me out of this and call me what you like it won't effect me....Girgit