Defence & Diplomacy: Pakistan's Acquisition of F-16s

[araz]

Hi,

It is of no offence---but it is sad to see that the young ones are so blind.

They have earned their wings to fly aircraft---but have failed in getting aircraft in a timely manner.

This is a failure of the corrupt leadership which has made money for itself while destroying this country. The PAF boys have pleaded to no avail. As long as there is no money there is no product. This has been the dilemma of the armed forces all along.
A

 

[Mentee]

Can I ask what is the purpose of the chap you have quoted? spreads More confusion than answers questions!!!

he has done more than enough-----------and plz behave while qouting the most senior member-------fanboys of musalah afvaaj wont understand what his presence means to this very forum-----

 

[Path-Finder]

he has done more than enough-----------and plz behave while qouting the most senior member-------fanboys of musalah afvaaj wont understand what his presence means to this very forum-----

I didn't ask you! so please keep out of it!

 

[Blue Marlin]

basically in 2008 they ordered 36 blk 52's but they ordered 18 and 18 options. 8 are being exercised and 10 more will be taken later

 

[Mentee]

I didn't ask you! so please keep out of it!

you asked for it, Peace

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You young kids don't realize that your parents were young at one time---and they also had their idols that they worshiped---and they would also not accept anything stated against those that they worshiped.


So---some of us---can see thru the veil of deception that the air force has put up---better than the others---.

And what are we saying---that 25 years have gone by and nothing of substance to counter the opposition---.

You kids are happy with the 'lowest' performance level---and that is a shame---.

The problem is that when you are satisfied with the lowest level of performance---the person performing the job thinks that he is doing very good---and thus he brings the performance level a little lower---because it is human nature to make excuses and get away with what you can---.

So---you need someone to light a fire under your tail.

The Paf is in a lackadaisical state of affairs---it is running around without any checks and balances---. It has no one to answer to---it has no one that can question it deeds---.

So---those who favor this status of the air force---they are neither the friends of the Paf---nor wholly and totally sincere to the nation.

I remember reading a story in reader's digest some 45 years ago----an american general is testing out the new jeep vehicle for the army on a test track----the jeep manufacturer is bragging that the vehicle is very stable and can take on every obstacle in stride----at that the general got mad and stated---" no that is not the case---the obstacle is not challenging enough "---.

They invited him back after a few days----on the test drive---the jeep rolled over---the general smacked his head on the roll bar---and was bleeding---the vehicle was rolled back on its wheels and started and was drivable---the generals stated that now he is satisfied with the test.

So---set higher standards---and ask for more---and when you get more---then ask for more---and when you reach that pleateau---then ask for more---you will be surprised that how much you have to offer---.

That is what the problem is over here---there is no one asking the air force for more.

 

[Blue Marlin]

good catch @cloud4000.
some good points out of that

• the new 8 f16's are from a deal in 2008 and they will order 10 more (18 options, 8 taken 10 left)
• the jf-16 is following a similar program that of the f16 where its upgraded in stages/blocks
• no intention to buy any more 4th gen fighters and will be looking at 5th gen fighters
• india plays an aggressive doctrine whilst pakistan is defensive or counter offensive at best
• india has destabilized some neighbouring like sri lanka and are playing dirty in nepal.

 

[araz]

good catch @cloud4000.
some good points out of that

• the new 8 f16's are from a deal in 2008 and they will order 10 more (18 options, 8 taken 10 left)
• the jf-16 is following a similar program that of the f16 where its upgraded in stages/blocks
• no intention to buy any more 4th gen fighters and will be looking at 5th gen fighters
• india plays an aggressive doctrine whilst pakistan is defensive or counter offensive at best
• india has destabilized some neighbouring like sri lanka and are playing dirty in nepal.

A very simplistic assessment by the AVMs. The fact remains that if it were the rest of the 36 which have already been approved by the Congress then there would be no need to notify it again. I think what he wanted to say and it should be clearified is that it was always anticipated that we will buy 36 so this is already a part of PAF acquisition cycle.
JFT vs F16s was interesting and reveals that PAF has really modelled it after the 16s and its development is on a similar pattern. The point is are we going to see a heavier JFT ALA Block Cand D or not.
Indian tactics are known and not even worthy of discussion.
The last point puts to rest all the rumours regarding the SU35 and J10B. AVM Lateef was in fact a bit critical of J10 which was quite interesting. Whehter this was just bravado or based on assessment is something I dont know. I would have loved to have been there asking the questions though for I can think of a few that might have caused a stir. Personally I would still go out on a limb and say I would love to see the SU35 in PAF service in small numbers (2 squadrons) before we go for a 5th generation fighter but finances might be a huge issue.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

A very simplistic assessment by the AVMs. The fact remains that if it were the rest of the 36 which have already been approved by the Congress then there would be no need to notify it again. I think what he wanted to say and it should be clearified is that it was always anticipated that we will buy 36 so this is already a part of PAF acquisition cycle.
JFT vs F16s was interesting and reveals that PAF has really modelled it after the 16s and its development is on a similar pattern. The point is are we going to see a heavier JFT ALA Block Cand D or not.
Indian tactics are known and not even worthy of discussion.
The last point puts to rest all the rumours regarding the SU35 and J10B. AVM Lateef was in fact a bit critical of J10 which was quite interesting. Whehter this was just bravado or based on assessment is something I dont know. I would have loved to have been there asking the questions though for I can think of a few that might have caused a stir. Personally I would still go out on a limb and say I would love to see the SU35 in PAF service in small numbers (2 squadrons) before we go for a 5th generation fighter but finances might be a huge issue.
A

Hi,

I hope that you may recall @Viper0011. posted a few months or a year ago that mentioned that the approval for the remaining 18 F16's was expiring---and the paf needs to move forward fast---.

Well they did not in a timely manner----. If they had---there would have been no issues.

I would have asked AVM that how come the JF17 is superior and the J10B / C is inferior----where the JF17 is designed to take on the indian air force and the J10 series designed to take on the americans---.

That simply don't make sense---.

Next I would ask---there was a 3 years cushion provided by india over MMRCA selection---why was in not used to procure the J10's and fix the issues.

Thirdly---many a members here brag that they will have turkey help them with electronics on the F16---if they could do that on the F16's---then why could they not build for the J10's!

 

[randomradio]

At 17:00, AM Lateef says what I have been saying here since quite sometime now. The Rafale deal for 36 is merely the first tranche.

I don't understand why the Pakistanis are surprised about the hue and cry India is making. It is part of our foreign policy to come in the way of any deal Pakistan wants to strike, and if not stop it, at least delay it for as long as possible.

LCA Tejas has not absorbed billions of dollars. Hundreds of millions yes, but it is yet to cross the billion mark. Yes, Tejas has seen the participation of dozens of labs across India. But JF-17 has seen the same across China, even if Pak doesn't have that many labs.

As for the JF-17 vs J-10 topic, I think he's referring to the open architecture system of the JF-17 which the J-10 cannot compete with until an export model is made.

The most important point, during the entire discussion there was not one word of who we are still arming up against. So the two gentlemen are portraying Pakistan as a victim of Indian 'hegemony.'

Thirdly---many a members here brag that they will have turkey help them with electronics on the F16---if they could do that on the F16's---then why could they not build for the J10's!

I suppose the PLAAF wouldn't allow the transfer of proprietary information to a country like Turkey. For that, the J-10 will have to switch to an open architecture bus interface system that allows communication with Western networks. The JF-17 does not face this problem.

That's probably why the J-10 has not been seen in international air shows. An export capable J-10 was yet to be developed at the time. And that's likely also a big reason why PAF had not made the decision to purchase it.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,

I hope that you may recall @Viper0011. posted a few months or a year ago that mentioned that the approval for the remaining 18 F16's was expiring---and the paf needs to move forward fast---.

Well they did not in a timely manner----. If they had---there would have been no issues.

I would have asked AVM that how come the JF17 is superior and the J10B / C is inferior----where the JF17 is designed to take on the indian air force and the J10 series designed to take on the americans---.

That simply don't make sense---.

Next I would ask---there was a 3 years cushion provided by india over MMRCA selection---why was in not used to procure the J10's and fix the issues.

Thirdly---many a members here brag that they will have turkey help them with electronics on the F16---if they could do that on the F16's---then why could they not build for the J10's!

• what are you even talking about? j10's to takes on the americans and the jf-17 to take on india?
• ok so you want the j10 huh... firstly make sure you sell enough cars to cough up $1.4 billion. and thats not the end of it. maintenance, spare parts, servicing, updates, weapons, training for pliots and ground crew. and the new tooling for maintenance. thats another good billion at least. and ooh dont forget reliable engines too. we can thank god that you were not in the air-force. and you act as if they have all of the money in the world. buy j10 in the 3 year gap.

wasting money is what your intending paf to do? forget the 4th gen stuff and go for the 5th gen fighters. have you seen the new 2nd j31 prototype? its looks like the f22 raptor! or go turkey. or by that time if the economy improves drastically then go for a mixture of the 2 and that would mean your nearly self sufficient and your only in need of engines thats all.

A very simplistic assessment by the AVMs. The fact remains that if it were the rest of the 36 which have already been approved by the Congress then there would be no need to notify it again. I think what he wanted to say and it should be clearified is that it was always anticipated that we will buy 36 so this is already a part of PAF acquisition cycle.
JFT vs F16s was interesting and reveals that PAF has really modelled it after the 16s and its development is on a similar pattern. The point is are we going to see a heavier JFT ALA Block Cand D or not.
Indian tactics are known and not even worthy of discussion.
The last point puts to rest all the rumours regarding the SU35 and J10B. AVM Lateef was in fact a bit critical of J10 which was quite interesting. Whehter this was just bravado or based on assessment is something I dont know. I would have loved to have been there asking the questions though for I can think of a few that might have caused a stir. Personally I would still go out on a limb and say I would love to see the SU35 in PAF service in small numbers (2 squadrons) before we go for a 5th generation fighter but finances might be a huge issue.
A

well yes araz, rest assured there's 18 new f16's are on they way. please dont go into the the j10 debacle and of all people but you im surprised you mentioned the su-35 too. i can't believe you fell for the russains trolling india. refer to my post which i quoted mastankahn regarding the 5th gen fighters. whats your opinion?

 

[MastanKhan]

That's probably why the J-10 has not been seen in international air shows. An export capable J-10 was yet to be developed at the time. And that's likely also a big reason why PAF had not made the decision to purchase it.

Hi,

Pakistan signed a contract in 2006 for 36 J10's---to procure at the time of their chosing.

The J10 tone by the AVM is the same tone that paf heirarchy had when Musharraf canc elled the Saab ereiye order and got the chinese awacs---.

Paf was mad that the chinse equipment was not upto the par---they were proven wrong---.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You mean pull out a fighter pilot and replace him with a car dealer to talk about fighter jets? - Its also called idiocy.

I fully agree with him. diplomatically dealing with India doesn't need gentlemen but shrewd and cunning salesmen mentality to ensure a win. lol

recall? Indians used to brag that we will bring a day soon that Pakistan wont even be able to buy a screw from the west without our approval and now they got egg on the face. the reaction of Indians has not left anything from imagination. hahaha

cheap shot them, sucker punch them on every opportunity because they never give you any chance.

 

[Blue Marlin]

I fully agree with him. diplomatically dealing with India doesn't need gentlemen but shrewd and cunning salesmen mentality to ensure a win. lol

recall? Indians used to brag that we will bring a day soon that Pakistan wont even be able to buy a screw from the west without our approval and now they got egg on the face. the reaction of Indians has not left anything from imagination. hahaha

cheap shot them, sucker punch them on every opportunity because they never give you any chance.

your politicain are never shrewd especially when they have business interests in india! this is when intelligence agencies move in and go the magic. they dont care about business but they are doing what they are told. as far as i think you guys have india under control.

i think pakistan would prefer india buying american kit as it contains "naughtys" in it. but european kit does not have that. but the french have realised that they [india] does not want russain kit anymore nor does it want americain kit so that leaves them with either european [typhoon] or france. now they are just milking them dry. pakistan is in the position where once they[india] begin eventually begin inducting the rafale pakistan would have firmly chosen it 5th gen fighter or a little bit later. as for mastan, i think he is a irrelevant trying to become a relevant by saying strange things, he's like pdf's version of katie hopkins. [you should know who she is] a

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

No offense MK, but you are just playing the know all jerk here, lets be honest. You deal cars, that is what you know best. Leave this business to those who have earned their wings in the job.



No offense MK, but you are just playing the know all jerk here, lets be honest. You deal cars, that is what you know best. Leave this business to those who have earned their wings in the job.

Sir with utmost respect i would disagree if i may?
Let there be no doubt that Paf is very professional and well accomplished training wise. Therefore it is criminal to put such good pilots against an enemy who have total technological advantage over such brave men. Paf is doing fantastic job in operation on the western border against an enemy with no air power/defense. On the eastern front however things are different. I would like someone to write a piece in Pakistani newspaper asking our air and ground strategic think tanks and the questions along the lines stated below..
Sir we understand that India is in dire need of doing something to show the world little bit of their muscle and they will never take this chance against China but definitely a short quick knock out punch and then back against pakistan. It will prove to world that they are real power in a region. Wether they will succeed or not thats a different story but India will not wage a full invasion of Pakistan for long period because it will bring the Nukes in business. Modern history tell us that air dominance is very important in short swift war. So the question is are we going to defend from our borders and a ground counter offense only? Wouldn't it make sense that if India does try any such action Paf equipped with 450 plus 4th and 4,5 gen fighter take the fight to the enemy inside enemy territory and annihilate the front line bases and achieving total air dominance before ground forces launch counter offensive.( I would like the aircraft number to more close to 600 so that India will never dream about taking any such adventure).Having 500 plus front line fighters mean less work for ground forces. India will use maybe 65% of their air fleet for the start now thats atleast 400 plus aircraft. Imagine if they know that PAF have 600 plus aircraft they will never ever dare. We wont look good doing a preemptive strike in case because of our Kargil history so that means we start behind. If our air dominance fighters are engaging IAF between 400km deep in their territory(neither f16 nor jf17 can do that) while our single engine aircraft wreck hovac along the front lines. It forces Indian ground forces to fight with totally no air cover that means we fight on Indian territory.
Imagine if we had 60 odd more aircrafts in east Pakistan mayb just mayb things could've been different.90000 ground troops surrendered imagine if they did have more air support things could've been prolonged enough and you never know.
If Pakistan tell the world that hey guys i am going to have a big air fleet so that even if things go south between Pakistan and India we can prolong the war and it averts the nuclear risk and i think no one but India will complain.
In regards to $$ for air fleet well the thing is Paf is suppose to be our front line of defense that means first to meet the enemy and if the strategic heads cant get the $$ out of a corrupt Govt then these so called Strategic heads need to leave because they don't understand the importance of providing security of the people. Pakistani people already suffer with so many problems such as no electricity, high prices,no jobs, no investment in education, no investment in future. So if these PAF HEADS CANT GET THE MONEY OUT THESE POLITICIANS WHO SPEND THIS MONEY ON USELESS THINGS AND CORRUPTION THEN I AM SORRY TO SAY THEY NEED TO LEAVE AND LET COMPETENT PEOPLE COME AND TAKE THEIR PLACE OUR FRONT LINE OF DEFENSE SHOULD NOT BE IMMATURE AND TIMID TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES. No more talk about traning of our boys we have no doubt about there traning their dedication and the strength but we question you who put the life of such brave men and security of the nation at risk by being too timid and taking the back seat. PAF needs to lead from front and just JF17 and F16s wont do the job until 5th gen comes. We need a third fighter and we need it now no more time wasting.
If we have big airfleet then we wont need tactical nuclear weapons in short war therfore saving 1000000s of Pakistani lives as well.
I need an answer from members here would you have 1 million ground troops with 300 odd f16s and jf17s or 500000 with 100 Su35s and 400 jf 17s and F16s? i think maintaining 500000 troops for whole year is equal to having additional 200 aircraft. Having big airforce means enemy will not try anything stupid therfore you wont have to deploy huge land forces.