Decline of Islamic Science

[ayesha.a]

Mongol were certainly a destructive force. No doubt about that.

But they can not be blamed for something that did not exist already. If there was no Mongol invasion, the only difference will be in history books and geopolitics. Not in sciences.

That's not really true - Baghdad was the center of learning in the middle east in those times, and the destruction of Baghdad, the burning of libraries, the massacring of architects and craftsmen and sceintists and philosophers all brought the so called islamic golden age to a grinding halt.

The "House of Wisdom" was turned to ashes.

From wikipedia:

House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During the reign of al-Ma'mun, astronomical observatories were set up, and the House was an unrivaled center for the study of humanities and for science in medieval Islam, including mathematics, astronomy, medicine, alchemy and chemistry, zoology, and geography and cartography. Drawing on Greek, Indian and Persian texts, the scholars accumulated a great collection of world knowledge, and built on it through their own discoveries. By the middle of the ninth century, the House of Wisdom was the largest repository of books in the world.[3]

It was destroyed in the sack of the city following the Mongol Siege of Baghdad (1258).

Contrary to your assertion, there was a lot of scientific learning and knowledge accumulated by Persians, Arabs, Indians, and even by ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians etc. The scientific method was not codified and nearly perfected as it is today, but rigorous investigations were done by many people at many times.

Note - I am not disputing the fact that Europe and the rest of the west are at the forefront of Science today, and that they have been so, for the past 400 years. That is indisputably true. I'm only countering your characterization that there was no Science done at all before 16th century Europe.

Yes, it is indeed the case. But by COMPARISON, things were much better under Christianity. And this allowed sustained progress.

In which period? During the dark ages? I don't think so. I don't have much knowledge about Arab or Persian society at those times, but Europe was a horrible place with priests and popes and bishops ruling a reign of terror. The Spanish inquisition, and all other such atrocities were commonplace.

It was only after the divorce of religion and state, that real progress began in the sciences.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Soft or hard does not matter. What matters is progress happened in domain of church and not under Islamic establishment. At the end who makes progress wins.

Which revolutions you are talking about? Did they discover atom? Did they discover elemental system of chemistry? Much myths have been made about "advances" of Muslim scientists of that era. But the truth is, it is not worth much. Even if they had done nothing, the world would not have missed them. All they were doing is translating and borrowing from earlier Greeks and edit it abit. Whether in astronomy or in medicine or else where.

The systemic analysis of nature and its laws were done by non-Muslims in Europe. Whether in pre-Islamic period or after Islam.



Yes, it is indeed the case. But by COMPARISON, things were much better under Christianity. And this allowed sustained progress.

you are Danishmand right?
show some Danish and tell me what Iranians did? I understand that you are willing to dismiss the work of Muslim Alchemists, Physicians and Mathematicians purely on the bases that they "borrowed" from the west.
I wont be that generous in dismissing the fact that Muslims were performing eye surgeries when Indeed the church was having people incarcerated for uttering heretical "nonsense" by the way these are not my words this is the commentary by the western historians.

replicating and translating shows smartness and is the fist step to innovations and discoveries. I wont dismiss it just like that because it is done by Arabs

you see, in Iran you got civilian and military relics from the 60s and 70s and they are replicated repainted and paraded for the feel good factor in Iran, I appreciate that, it shows ambition even though even I find it comical (re Qaher 313)

 

[Daneshmand]

That's not really true - Baghdad was the center of learning in the middle east in those times, and the destruction of Baghdad, the burning of libraries, the massacring of architects and craftsmen and sceintists and philosophers all brought the so called islamic golden age to a grinding halt.

The "House of Wisdom" was turned to ashes.

From wikipedia:

House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Contrary to your assertion, there was a lot of scientific learning and knowledge accumulated by Persians, Arabs, Indians, and even by ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians etc. The scientific method was not codified and nearly perfected as it is today, but rigorous investigations were done by many people at many times.

Note - I am not disputing the fact that Europe and the rest of the west are at the forefront of Science today, and that they have been so, for the past 400 years. That is indisputably true. I'm only countering your characterization that there was no Science done at all before 16th century Europe.


In which period? During the dark ages? I don't think so. I don't have much knowledge about Arab or Persian society at those times, but Europe was a horrible place with priests and popes and bishops ruling a reign of terror. The Spanish inquisition, and all other such atrocities were commonplace.

It was only after the divorce of religion and state, that real progress began in the sciences.

Contrary to your belief, science was created for the first time in Greece. Rest of the places were running on fumes.

After Greeks again the Europe picked up where Greeks had left.

Inbetween there was a lull, a void and what we call dark ages because, Europe had stopped. Nothing of much value was added in this period. Whether by Muslims or by Chinese or Japanese or by Aztec or Inca or anyone else. Nothing that if they had not produced it, the world would have missed today.

This is the difference.

Creating myths of "Golden Islamic" or "Golden Hindu" etc etc period is another reason why things can not move forward in these societies.

you are Danishmand right?
show some Danish and tell me what Iranians did? I understand that you are willing to dismiss the work of Muslim Alchemists, Physicians and Mathematicians purely on the bases that they "borrowed" from the west.
I wont be that generous in dismissing the fact that Muslims were performing eye surgeries when Indeed the church was having people incarcerated for uttering heretical "nonsense" by the way these are not my words this is the commentary by the western historians.

replicating and translating shows smartness and is the fist step to innovations and discoveries. I wont dismiss it just like that because it is done by Arabs

you see, in Iran you got civilian and military relics from the 60s and 70s and they are replicated repainted and paraded for the feel good factor in Iran, I appreciate that, it shows ambition even though even I find it comical (re Qaher 313)

Too rush a comment. I expected more from you. Go and read the entire thread and come back to put forward your question.

As for your specific question above, Iranians did nothing.

Iran does not have any scientific tradition. No more than Pakistan does.

Muslim performance in sciences and philosophy is and has been pathetic to put it mildly. Making excuses and trying to advertise a few oddities, can fool the general public but not kinds like me.

you see, in Iran you got civilian and military relics from the 60s and 70s and they are replicated repainted and paraded for the feel good factor in Iran, I appreciate that, it shows ambition even though even I find it comical (re Qaher 313)

That is trolling.

I thought we were having a serious discussion here, until this you wrote.

Apologize.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Didn't pope use to fatwasize Christian scientists in the middle ages and in the reniassence era? Weren't there some great achievements of Muslim scientists, which you are trying to down play? What is the meaning of your argument "sketch distance of those scientists from Mekkah"? Are only Mekkans are Muslims or does Islam says that Muslims are only those who belong to Mekkah and Medina?

Christian Mullahs like their followers in Islam, split into many "sects".

Yes some sects were opposed to scientists.
But then many more were pro-science.

For example Lunar (moon) mapping was standardized by a Jesuit priest. Apollo landings were based on the map renderings originally proposed and setup by the that guy.

In facts jesuit priests are very well known for their support of scientific learning.

Even Pope was a great supporter of artists and painters. including inventor and painters like Michalangelo.

Islamic Mullahs and Ayatullahs on the other hand were not.

Still European science too was far away from Vetican (mostly in Britan, France, and Germany and further north).

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

Mongol were certainly a destructive force. No doubt about that.

But they can not be blamed for something that did not exist already. If there was no Mongol invasion, the only difference will be in history books and geopolitics. Not in sciences.

China too did not have any scientific tradition either. Much like the rest of Asia and Africa and pre-colonial America and Oceania.

Yes, there was art and supernaturals and military conquests. There was religion and some philosophy. But not science.

Science as we know it, is purely a European endeavor. Even largely today. Trying to say otherwise is pure BS and a big lie.

Science as we understand it today is a European invention but whos to say that the Chinese, Arabs or other great civilizations destroyed by the Mongols could not have developed their own form of science? With wealth and stability comes the arts and learning and progress.
Humanity progresses by learning from each other and science is not a European monopoly.

The mongols were the scourge of humanity. It is a good thing that they are reduced to their sorry state today and squeezed and subjued by the people their ancestors tormented.

 

[FaujHistorian]

That's not really true - Baghdad was the center of learning in the middle east in those times, and the destruction of Baghdad, the burning of libraries, the massacring of architects and craftsmen and sceintists and philosophers all brought the so called islamic golden age to a grinding halt.

The "House of Wisdom" was turned to ashes.

From wikipedia:

House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Oh bhai jaan

House of wisdom was active only for 50 years or less and was home to less than 5 scientists. Biggest of them all was Alkhawarizmi. But this poor chap was kicked out from there and he died in Afghanistan.

Please go beyond the basic propaganda for a little.

Thank you

 

[ayesha.a]

Contrary to your belief, science was created for the first time in Greece. Rest of the places were running on fumes.

After Greeks again the Europe picked up where Greeks had left.

As I explained in an earlier post, the practice of Science today is very different from the practice in ancient Greece. The Greek scholars believed only in logic and reason, and were disdainful of real world observations. Experimentation, data collection etc was never done.

But yes, the enlightenment scholars of Europe derived inspiration from the values of ancient greeks.

However, I still maintain that your assertion that there was no scientific activity whatsoever is simply not true. If it was, there would be no astronomical observatories in India and Persia, no treatises on math and logic like those of Bhaskara or Aryabhatta in India, no medicines and medical practices of the Ayurvedic tradition. There would be no grand temples or mosques built, if Vastu-shastra (and its equivalents in other places) did not exist as a rudimentary scientific branch of study. The 'Meenakshi temple' and other wondrous architecture would not be possible without a lot of knowledge about strength of materials, and other civil engineering knowledge. There is a reason why many accomplishments of the 10th century AD were not possible in the 10th century BC.

I agree with the last part of your post, that it is silly to talk about "golden ages" or talk about islamic or hindu or christian science. That is precisely why I said "so called" islamic golden period. I never make any such characterizations myself. And yes, science as practiced today developed mostly in the west, there is no doubt about that.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ibn e Sina was a Hafiz but analyzed, criticized and studied Aristotle extensively. Ibn e Khaldun was a Hafiz yet talks about the science of logic in Al Muqaddimah regularly referring to the Ancient Greeks/Aristotle (I have already put the link to Al Muqaddimah in a previous post). Surely as men raised in Madrassas, with religious eductional backgrounds they shouldn't have been reading the philosophical works of Pagans? Yet they did this. The Abbasiya Khalifas, the Amir e Momineen of the Ummah heavily patronized the Mu'tazila school of thought which emphasized rationality and logic in faith (Mu`tazila - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.

Bamxa bhai,

please no slight of hand. Ibn e Sina was not linked to Mu`tazila. There is a huge gap intellectual and geographical in this paragraph of yours.

This is why I say, please do a bit less of lapaita

To be perfectly honest and I say this wanting to be as respectful as possible but on the contrary you need to do some homework. Baghdad was the heart of the Islamic world. It is where the Caliph sat. It is where the Islamic army was based and it is also where the Bayt al Hikma was. Attending this educational institute were men like Al Khwarizmi (father of Algebra), Al Kindi (argued for synthesis between Greek philosophy and Islam), A Sindhi named Ibn Ali who introduced the decimal fractions to the Islamic world etc. These scientists/philisophers were not living on the "fringes" of the Muslim world. On the contrary they were living at the heart of the Islamic world.

Oh bhai jaan

House of wisdom was active only for less than 50 years and was home to less than 5 scientists. Biggest of them all was Alkhawarizmi. But this poor chap was kicked out from there and he died in Afghanistan.

Please go beyond the basic propaganda for a little.

Thank you

 

[ayesha.a]

"Islamic science" ?!

WTH is Islamic science?! Putting religion and science into the same sentence is already nonsense enough...

They mean the practice of science in islamic regions. In principle, I agree that it is ridiculous to attach religious or regional or nationalistic epithets to science, which by definition is objective.

 

[flamer84]

In which period? During the dark ages? I don't think so. I don't have much knowledge about Arab or Persian society at those times, but Europe was a horrible place with priests and popes and bishops ruling a reign of terror. The Spanish inquisition, and all other such atrocities were commonplace.

It was only after the divorce of religion and state, that real progress began in the sciences.

Christianity in those times is not only Western Europe.Many tend to forget Byzantium a place where art and knowledge was not persecuted by the Church.Knowledge was also spurred when Byzantium fell to Western knights in the 13th century and plundered the city and by craftsmen fleeing the Turks after 1453.

 

[MarkovChain]

He is right, but there was one more factor, a final blow - the Mongol invasions, and the complete destruction of Baghdad. Science, arts, literature, almost every constructive human activity declined due to that.

Actually, muslim scientists existed well beyond 13th century but the empires themselves became hyper radicalized and looked down upon science.
Istanbul observatory of Taqi ad-Din - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The observatory did not survive to advance the development of astronomy in the Muslim world. Within months of the observatory's completion, a comet with an enormous tail appeared in the sky and Sultan Murad III demanded a prognostication about it from his astronomer. "Working day and night without food and rest" Taqi ad-Din studied the comet and came up with the prediction that it was "an indication of well-being and splendor," and would mean a "conquest of Persia". Unfortunately, instead of well-being a devastating plague followed in some parts of the empire, and several important persons died.[2] Taqi ad-Din was able to carry on his observations for a few more years but eventually opponents of the observatory and prognostication from the heavens prevailed and the observatory was destroyed in 1580.[1] Other sources give the "rise of a clerical faction," which opposed or at least was indifferent to science,[3] and specifically to "the recommendation of the Chief Mufti" of the Ottomans, as the explanation for the destruction of the observatory.[4]

 

[flamer84]

Still European science too was far away from Vetican (mostly in Britan, France, and Germany and further north).

Italy was a center of art and knowledge in the 15th-16th centuries.It doesn't get much closer to the Vatican than Italy.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Christian Mullahs like their followers in Islam, split into many "sects".

Yes some sects were opposed to scientists.
But then many more were pro-science.

For example Lunar (moon) mapping was standardized by a Jesuit priest. Apollo landings were based on the map renderings originally proposed and setup by the that guy.

In facts jesuit priests are very well known for their support of scientific learning.

Even Pope was a great supporter of artists and painters. including inventor and painters like Michalangelo.

Islamic Mullahs and Ayatullahs on the other hand were not.

Still European science too was far away from Vetican (mostly in Britan, France, and Germany and further north).

the thread has taken a wrong turn where everyone is now apologising what what little Muslims have to show for science to our Critic from Iran. our siege weapons were a legend and so were the use of use of fiery chemicals in the warfare (which attracts the best of minds, military applications lead the way in science)

 

[The SC]

Contrary to your belief, science was created for the first time in Greece. Rest of the places were running on fumes.

After Greeks again the Europe picked up where Greeks had left.

Inbetween there was a lull, a void and what we call dark ages because, Europe had stopped. Nothing of much value was added in this period. Whether by Muslims or by Chinese or Japanese or by Aztec or Inca or anyone else. Nothing that if they had not produced it, the world would have missed today.

This is the difference.

Creating myths of "Golden Islamic" or "Golden Hindu" etc etc period is another reason why things can not move forward in these societies..

Mesopotamia had science, and Pharaonic Egypt had very advanced sciences carved in the Pyramids as testimonies. In my quest about civilizations I have found out that the Greeks have borrowed most of the sciences from the Egyptians (See the "Rosetta stone"), although Western historians state that Western civilization started with the Greeks, they are right when talking about Western civilization but not the whole civilization.
The Greeks were to the Egyptian civilization what the Muslims were to all previous Eastern civilizations including the Greek one.
It is historically proven without any doubt nor contest that their translations, improvements and innovations constitute the bases of today's sciences.

Ancient Egypt: the impact of Ancient Egypt on Greek Philosophy
ANCIENT EGYPT : The impact of Ancient Egypt on Greek philosophy : Memphite & Theban thought

Egypt: origin of the Greek culture
"For centuries, scholars have identified the Greek culture as the source of the western civilization. But what if the Greek culture itself was a legacy – a colony – of the ancient Egyptians?" Philip Coppens
The same veil of ignorance is maintained when it comes to philosophy. Both Plato and Pythagoras, identified as icons of Greek philosophy, stated that they and other great Greek philosophers had studied and learned that knowledge in Egypt. Many had studied many years at Egyptian schools, to return to Greece as the “first philosophers”.

Egypt: origin of the Greek culture

 

[FaujHistorian]

.....our siege weapons were a legend and so were the use of use of fiery chemicals in the warfare (which attracts the best of minds, military applications lead the way in science)

Our?

Irfan Bhai jaan,

Could you quote a battle in Lahore, dilli, lucknow that documented "siege weapons" that were a "legendary"?

specific wars I mean!

Thank you