Decline of Islamic Science

[doppelganger]

my posts drip with common sense, not with 40 college degrees from iisc ( bangalore ) or harvard.

I just saw your common sense when you claimed Iran to be a backward unscientific culture and civilization before Islam came in and "emancipated" them.

You really are Islamically blinkered my friend. Read more. Non Islamic sources would be nice.

 

[Indian Patriot]

there have been many irani scientists since islam, why not before??

Who said there were no iranian scientists pre-Islam? LOL!!! You people are so blinded by emotions that you are blind to reality. Every ancient culture had science and Iran is one of world's oldest civilisations. Xerxes was not a shia muslim but he was a well known emperor.

For the love of whatever you believe is holy please do not talk like science and civilisation did not exist before Islam.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian @MastanKhan @Icewolf Please don't get hung up on the title. Pay attention to the content if you don't want to miss the whole point of my post.

What you are trying to say in this thread is regressive, and backwards attempt of analysis that is laced with pathetic religious references focused only on a small part of the evolution in scientific fields.

The real effort should be to get 100% plugged into USA's scientific institutions and culture.

There is not much left to learn from Spain, Syria, and Iraqi science in 2015 AD, except that we should not do what they are or were doing. That's all.

peace

 

[Irfan Baloch]

And yet the supposedly 'inventors' of the numerical ..........?

sorry I had to remove your "off-topic" post the reporter doesn't disagree with your commentary but argues this is wrong place for that

 

[Kambojaric]

What you are trying to say in this thread is regressive, and backwards attempt of analysis that is laced with pathetic religious references focused only on a small part of the evolution in scientific fields.

The real effort should be to get 100% plugged into USA's scientific institutions and culture.

There is not much left to learn from Spain, Syria, and Iraqi science in 2015 AD, except that we should not do what they are or were doing. That's all.

peace

I think the point we are trying to get to is to not make the same mistakes that earlier Muslims made in relation to their understanding of Islam.. A similarity between "Golden Age" Muslims and the modern day Muslim is the importance of Islam in our respective societies. However since the late Medieval Age, the Muslim world has produced no scientists of note. Why this change? What can we learn from this? How did our understanding of Islam change which subsequently affected how we saw secular education and science? These are all relevant questions for Muslims today and extremely imperative to answer considering that if you look at news headlines of Islamic countries today they are dominated by ISIS, attacks on church's, Boko Haram, blasphemy law's etc etc. In contrast we have only produced one Nobel Price winner in physics and we all know what happened to him.
What was the relative open-mindedness that the earlier Muslims possessed which allowed Islamic societies to flourish in terms of science and education but which in the Post-Ghazali Islam gradually declined and were dominated by the Western world? Maybe the OP could have been worded better but I most certainly agree with the issues it raises as they are valid ones which need answering.

 

[Metanoia]

@syedali73 The Mayans etc. were a culture and people while Islam is a religion. So you can say Science in Arab lands, Persian Arts/Sciences or Mughal Arts and Science etc.
__________________________________________________________________________________


Anyways....the primary reasons for decline in Science+Art+Philosophy in Middle-Eastern countries and countries like Pakistan/Afghanistan is because of increased theology, dogmatism and fundamentalism. All these factors have killed the culture of tolerance and free-thinking. There is no philosophical approach to answers any more.....and there are no more answers because everyone apparently knows the "absolute-truth".

All these fundamentalist, theological and dogmatic lands focus on "prophecies" of how their glory based on the power of the sword and blood of the jew is just around the corner.

Summary: Willful-Ignorance

 

[FaujHistorian]

I think the point we are trying to get to is to not make the same mistakes that earlier Muslims made in relation to their understanding of Islam.. .

Bhai Jaan,

I love history. So you do not have to convince me to go back in time and look at something.

But please let me give you a simple example of a buddy of mine from high school. Let's assume his name is Arshad Chowdhary

1. Arshad Choudhary's grand father was neurosurgeon
2. His Dad was a famous cardiologist
3. Sadly Arshad chowdhary is a loser, and does drugs now, and lives in the basement of his father's house

The question we all may ask, what is the reason of "decline" of a guy named Arshad?

Well @RiazHaq bhai may respond by writing a book to answer this fantastic question.
The first 20 chapters of this highly acclaimed book will talk about the glorious past of Arshad Chowdhary
These chapters will say, how great the grand father was
and how great the father was
and how both greats meaning the grand father and the father brought new toolls and tech into their fields.

And then
and then


The last chapter with 2 pages will say why Arshad Chowdhary is a looser.

What would you (@Bamxa) suggest Riaz bhai should write in this chapter?

Any suggestions?


p.s. I hope you underrstand that "decline" happened in just one generation. That is the generation of Arshad when he refused to work hard towards med school.

p.p.s Arashad did go to mosque and say 5 prayers when he was in high school, and even then he had started doing drugs. That means he was and is a Muslim. but Islam has nothing to do when it comes to his decline. It was the lack of hard work and lack of work ethic.

 

[RiazHaq]

What you are trying to say in this thread is regressive, and backwards attempt of analysis that is laced with pathetic religious references focused only on a small part of the evolution in scientific fields.

The real effort should be to get 100% plugged into USA's scientific institutions and culture.

There is not much left to learn from Spain, Syria, and Iraqi science in 2015 AD, except that we should not do what they are or were doing. That's all.

peace

This thread is as "regressive and backward" as "100% plugged into USA" American Neil deGrasse Tyson's analysis it is based on.

The point my post is making is the same as that of Neil deGrasse Tyson: Americans (and by extension others, including Muslims) can and must learn from the rise and fall of Islamic civilization of 800-1100AD. Tyson particularly refers to the damaging effects of significant attempts in the United States to reject Evolution and Climate Science based on dogma.

God help you if you fail to comprehend this.

 

[FaujHistorian]

This thread is as "regressive and backward" as "100% plugged into USA" American Neil deGrasse Tyson's analysis it is based on.

The point my post is making is the same as that of Neil deGrasse Tyson: Americans (and by extension others, including Muslims) can and must learn from the rise and fall of Islamic civilization of 800-1100AD. Tyson particularly refers to the damaging effects of significant attempts in the United States to reject Evolution and Climate Science based on dogma.

God help you if you fail to comprehend this.

BTW any reasons for the decline of "Arshad Chowdhary"?

As you very well know, Dr. Tyson is not giving any true analysis of science in the Middle East and North Africa (that you a called by mistake "Islamic science").

Dr. Tyson instead warned Americans to be NOT emulate Middle Easterners of TODAY.

And I do not think your post concluded that.

If you had posted your conclusion from the get go that Pakistanis should not follow today's traditions of Middle East and North Africa, there was no argument.

But that is clearly not the case in your first post.



p.s. no need to make it person. I respect your stature and your experience. But we are not discussing you or I.

....
What was the relative open-mindedness that the earlier Muslims possessed which allowed Islamic societies to flourish in terms of science and education .

One main reasson?

geographical and intellectual distance from Makkah Madina.

Seriously!

If you make a list of all Middle Eastern scientists from 800AD-1000AD, you will find that they mostly existed 100s if not 1000s of kilometers from Makkah aka religious center.

Because pretty much every major religion is anti-Science.

No conspiracy. Just the fundamental difference in world views.

Religions and more importantly religious authorities tend to use past traditions to explain this world.

Scientists on the other hand must challenge the basis all the time.

This is why Makkah, Madina and even Jerusalem were never known for producing cutting edge scientists. Just hand and neck cutting/chopping mUllahs.

Hope you see this.

Thank you.

 

[syedali73]

sorry I had to remove your "off-topic" post the reporter doesn't disagree with your commentary but argues this is wrong place for that

No need for sorry, you are Badshah aadmi, can do whatever you see fit. However, I'll suggest you to read post#48. Thanks.

Decline of Islamic Science | Page 4

 

[Secur]

@syedali73

What would we mean by Islamic science, mate? Whats so religious about it?

 

[syedali73]

@syedali73

What would we mean by Islamic science, mate? Whats so religious about it?

It is a wrong term that has been erroneously used in the literature. Did I condone the use of this term?

 

[Secur]

It is a wrong term that has been erroneously used in the literature. Did I condone the use of this term?

No, just asking. Because I don't understand the relevance of religion with science, the creator of this universe grants knowledge of its creations and opens up the secrets to everyone who seeks it. Science is no one's mistress is said for a reason- not to mention that "those" inventors and discoverers unlike today's Muslims were open minded and preffered reason over religious dogma.

 

[Kambojaric]

One main reasson?

geographical and intellectual distance from Makkah Madina.

Seriously!

If you make a list of all Middle Eastern scientists from 800AD-1000AD, you will find that they mostly existed 100s if not 1000s of kilometers from Makkah aka religious center.

Because pretty much every major religion is anti-Science.

No conspiracy. Just the fundamental difference in world views.

Religions and more importantly religious authorities tend to use past traditions to explain this world.

Scientists on the other hand must challenge the basis all the time.

This is why Makkah, Madina and even Jerusalem were never known for producing cutting edge scientists. Just hand and neck cutting/chopping mUllahs.

Hope you see this.

Thank you.

Religions are there to be understood by their followers. If the followers are dogmatists then they will interpret their religion as a dogmatic one. If the followers are pragmatic and rational they will emphasize the points in Quran emphasizing education and learning. Some of the first words of Jibril to the Prophet were "read, read, read". Its entirely up to humans of their present age how they wish to use and interpret their religion. As such I wouldnt blame religion's but rather how their supposed followers choose to interpret that religion.

With regards to Mecca or Medina not making any kind of real scientific contribution I think that too goes back to the difference between rural and urban dwellers. Nomads and people from small poor towns will have little time or resources to spend on setting up academic institutions, gathering books and setting up libraries etc. This is something urban dwellers with vast amount of resources do which explains why some of the bigger cities in the Islamic world produced some of the greatest scientists of their era i.e. Cordoba, Baghdad. Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem were only important because of their religious value. Socio-Economically these cities were just as insignificant as Muscat or Benghazi.

The important point for us modern day Muslims however is to learn how the early urban Muslims integrated Islam with pragmatism. Rather than shutting out any Non-Islamic influence, Medieval Islamic philosophers readily accepted, scrutinized and analyzed ancient Greek texts. During my medieval philisophy I learnt from my professor that Thomas Aquinas, Sigir of Brabant and some of the other early Aristotelians of Medieval Europe were inspired and influenced by Ibn Rushd's commentary on Aristotle's work. The guy even features in the "school of athens" by Raphael (http://mv.vatican.va/1_CommonFiles/z-patrons/Restorations/Restorations_01.jpg). The point is not to dwell in this glory and say oh we are so awesome we gave Europe Aristotle. The important point is to understand how is it that men like Ibn Rushd emerged in that previous Muslim world when in today's Muslim world it would be next to impossible. For a man to suggest that there are two truths, one philosophical/metaphysical and one religious he would today probably be booked under blashpemy laws and be waiting in the execution queue. We wont have another "Golden Age" till we become more tolerant and less narrow minded.

 

[Daneshmand]

Haq's Musings: Rise and Fall of Islamic Civilization: Why Do Stars Have Arabic Names?

Where did star names like Ain ( عين), Betelgeuse (إبط الجوزاء ) and Cursa ( الكرسي) come from? Who named Californium and Berkelium elements of the periodic table? Famous American scientist Dr.Neil deGrasse Tyson answered these and other questions in some recent video presentations.

Neil deGrasse Tyson is an American astrophysicist, cosmologist, author, and science communicator, according to Wikipedia. Since 1996, he has been the Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the Rose Center for Earth and Space in New York City.

What Dr. Tyson describes as "naming rights" simply means that those who discover new things get to name them. Californians got the naming rights to some of the elements of the periodic table while the Arabs got to name vast majority of the stars in the Cosmos. In modern western astronomy, most of the accepted star names are Arabic, a few are Greek and some are of unknown origin.


Alhazen 965-1040 AD
Continuing on the naming rights theme, Dr. Tyson also describes the Islamic origins of Arabic numerals, Algebra and algorithm as products of the Islamic Golden Age of Science in 800 to 1100 AD.


The lesson Dr. Tyson draws from the rise and fall of of Muslims is as follows: Islamic civilization remained dominant in sciences and mathematics as long as Muslims practiced Ijtihad to ask questions and find answers to questions. What led to theirdecline was Taqlid, the unquestioning faith in Revelation.

Dr. Tyson credits the great Muslim philosopher Alhazen (Abū ʿAlī al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham 965-1040 AD) with inventing the modern scientific method. Alhazen questioned everything, especially the things everyone took for granted, says Dr. Tyson. Alhazen's work was lavishly funded by the Muslim Caliphs. All of it changed when Imam Al Ghazali, or Algazel, a highly influential Islamic scholar of his time, succeeded in persuading Muslims to accept Taqlid that triggered rapid decline of the Islamic world.

Dr. Tyson has used the example of the great Islamic Civilization's decline to warn Americans against repeating it. He has particularly targeted those in America who denounce Darwin's theory of evolution or reject the validity of climate science.

Here are three important video presentations made by Dr. Tyson on the subject:

Related Links:

Haq's Musings

Muslims Have Few Nobel Prizes

Obama Speaks to the Muslim World
Lost Discoveries by Dick Teresi
Physics of Christianity by Frank Tipler
What is Not Taught in School

How Islamic Inventors Changed the World

Jinnah's Pakistan Booms Amidst Doom and Gloom


Haq's Musings: Rise and Fall of Islamic Civilization: Why Do Stars Have Arabic Names?

Too much compressed air in your post!

Muslims never had any scientific tradition. Not atleast what we call science today.

There were a few odd genuine Muslim "scientists" who lived many centuries ago like Khwarizmi. But the contributions of these also were not so great to try to capitalize on in 21st century.

Do not try to create something that never existed. It won't stick.

As you can see around yourself, Muslims are at their most advanced stage NOW and HERE. Because of efforts of non-Muslims.

I would not have had any issue if you had written your post in a fantasy mode since you are allowed to have fantasies. What you are not allowed is to pass lies as historical facts.