[DEBATE]Our Ex-Chief of Staff:"... Pakistan doesn't have a national army."

[MastanKhan]

Compulsion always results in a few dissidents and that's simply human nature. Despite being a voluntary army, it is a highly desirable organisation to which people love to join and serve to safeguard their country and fight for it and get martyred. I meet a lot of people from Iran, Sweden, Israel, Spore etc where there is the compulsory military service rule for male citizens and most of them are not happy with it and they do it because they have to do it while I always wanted to join any of the armed forces especially the airforce as to keep up with our family traditions and serve my country but due to certain physical constraints I couldn't but my younger brother is in military service, my cousins are so part of me is there....that's the dedication and wish for martyrdom of the volunteers.

Hi,

What compulsory military service does to you is to bring some kind of discipline in the life that is lacking in every day civilian life.

Ex military people are on the average more professional---take their job more seriously---and stay disciplined most of the time.

You are a sick indian hiding behind Turkish flags trying to insinuate that Pakistan Army is actually Punjab army and start an ethnic divide.

@mods @Oscar @waz @WAJsal

please close this troll thread attacking Pakistan and Pakistan army and ban this individual for starting a baseless thread.

Hi,

It is good to TAKE HEAT---it is good for the soul---it makes you resilient---it makes you understand the mindset of the opponent.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

What compulsory military service does to you is to bring some kind of discipline in the life that is lacking in every day civilian life.

Ex military people are on the average more professional---take their job more seriously---and stay disciplined most of the time.

Agreed

 

[SQ8]

@waz @Oscar
Sir/s we have excellent brotherly relation with our Turk brothers even on this forum So kindly regulate / moderate those subjects which could be became cause of rifts between the two nations even on this forum.

I request you to Kindly delete or block this thread.

There is no rift. He is actually right on the spot. You cannot shut off all views because you disagree or find them offensive.


There is a reason for the biased composition of the Pakistan Army and that has to do with both British policies prior to partition and the distribution of wealth.

In addition, the Turk are less divided on Ethnic lines than Pakistan is. Where the Turk have a national identity and conform to it; Pakistanis are desperately rushing from one definition to the next to try and find one.

 

[hassamun]

Hi brothers and sisters of the brotherly nation Pakistan!

This is a debate, so not necessarily a news subject. Our ex-chief of the general staff literally just said (he is right now speaking live on TV, talking about all the developments around the region including the coup, Syria intervention, ISIS and counter-terrorism in general) and he said (NOT quote!):


-The matter of national army is too important. When I was the chief and head of ground forces also, I've personally worked on this to increase this matter as much as possible. Our vision was an army made by everyone from Edirne to Hakkari. When I checked the results of conscripts, I was shocked to see there is no joining from Hakkari. As you see, the education level of that city is pretty low. So I've instructed the regional commanders to open courses to increase the level of participation in education and thus increase the participation to the army from that city. This kind of phenomenon is proven to be a very important matter. Look at Syria, yet alone having a national army, they don't even have an army to begin with. Look at Iraq, there is Barzani in the north of the country.. Kurdish Peshmerga under Barzani is in the north, in the other sides of the country there are shia and sunni elements. And to get real, those elements would not even fight for other territories of their own country. We have seen it occuring with our own eyes there, Iraqi soldiers running away from enemies because they thought it was not their fight. That is not a national army. We look at Iran, they don't even have one army! It is so funny, they have two armies instead and they both operate dependently on separate entities. Can we really say this a national army? Another weird fact is that the guards there does not even serve the government nor the president. They serve the religious leader of the country.. All these armies are very dangerous armies. Armies that are not national armies are very dangerous. Then we look at Afghanistan.. There is barely any government there yet alone an army. And look at Pakistan.. I mean.. It is very saddening for us of course, after all they are our brother nation.. but the same phenomenon is also presence in Pakistan too. I've traveled everywhere, seen and inspected all these armies myself. You travel to the north of Pakistan.. And you see that the army there is made up by people living in those regions. You cannot call that a national army...


Essentially he made this kind of statements along with all other things. The debate I was curious to talk about is...


Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank!

Dear Soul,

First of all, thank you for sharing with us this vital information and I must say that your thirst for knowledge is commendable. The Turkish General's Facts were incorrect and I will explain below...

Pakistan, like other South Asian Countries for example India, has Military and Paramilitary Forces.

The Military as we know are the Army, Navy and Air Force. (Self Explanatory)

Paramilitary Forces are semi-militarized which safeguard a nation's interests. In Pakistan, the Paramilitary Forces can be divided into three categories, performing three distinct roles: Firstly the armed security forces, secondly a reserve force, and thirdly the Maritime Security Agency. They were at first, conceived by the British in South Asia.
Some of these forces have local recruitment as they shall know best how to deal with their own people. Examples include Gilgit Baltistan Scouts (Founded in 1889) are Recruited mostly from the Gilgit Baltistan Region in the North of Pakistan, Frontier Corps (Founded in 1878) are Recruited mostly from the KPK and Baluchistan Provinces of Pakistan, etc... Another difference is that Paramilitary Forces are mostly under the Ministry of Interior, not the Armed Forces or the Army...Normally the designated Heads of such Forces are serving Military Officers...

Hope this information helps. Please do not hesitate to ask any further questions that you may have...

Note: To my fellow Pakistani friends who are showing negativity and conspiracies with regards to Soul's post, Please grow up...

 

[I.R.A]

I wish there was 4-6 years compulsory military service for all the pakistani male adults---.

Sir, if it's only discipline that we are interested in then I think cadet college type full time boarding schools should suffice?

Making everyone a fauji wouldn't help in many areas.

 

[ThE-ShOwStOpPeR]

There is no rift. He is actually right on the spot. You cannot shut off all views because you disagree or find them offensive.


There is a reason for the biased composition of the Pakistan Army and that has to do with both British policies prior to partition and the distribution of wealth.

In addition, the Turk are less divided on Ethnic lines than Pakistan is. Where the Turk have a national identity and conform to it; Pakistanis are desperately rushing from one definition to the next to try and find one.

Sir, if it's only discipline that we are interested in then I think cadet college type full time boarding schools should suffice?

Making everyone a fauji wouldn't help in many areas.

Sir if there is only discipline that we are interested in? then cadet college training would suffice but military training would't help us in many fields.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir if there is only discipline that we are interested in? then cadet college training would suffice but military training would't help us in many fields.

Hi,

Cadet college won't do it---. When you become a professional---inducted into the military---things change drastically.

 

[ThE-ShOwStOpPeR]

Hi,

Cadet college won't do it---. When you become a professional---inducted into the military---things change drastically.

I just corrected the above post not my views but thanks for the reply.

 

[I.R.A]

Hi,

Cadet college won't do it---. When you become a professional---inducted into the military---things change drastically.

5 to 6 years of compulsory military service for a doctor, engineer, lawyer, scientist, accountant, and bureaucrat etc. would reduce his service life in areas he excels in ..........

 

[MastanKhan]

5 to 6 years of compulsory military service for a doctor, engineer, lawyer, scientist, accountant, and bureaucrat etc. would reduce his service life in areas he excels in ..........

No---he won't---. The discipline of military life will make him a better and more productive civilian

 

[I.R.A]

No---he won't---. The discipline of military life will make him a better and more productive civilian

Sir g I strongly disagree ............... discipline has little to do with productivity compared to honesty, motivation, challenging environment that promotes out of the box thinking, opportunities to make decisions, working environment with lesser restrictions in place like dress code etc. Military style environment deteriorates a civilian’s ability to perform at his best. If discipline only could sell JF-17 the sales would have been sky high.

 

[GenerallyKhan]

Hi,

What compulsory military service does to you is to bring some kind of discipline in the life that is lacking in every day civilian life.

Ex military people are on the average more professional---take their job more seriously---and stay disciplined most of the time.

I recall Pakistan used to have some sort of a military service program, compulsory or voluntary I don't remember. It was abolished in late 90s. Usually, one would graduate from high school and spend 1-6 month and receive very basic training and a few drills. Nothing too fancy.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

And look at Pakistan.. I mean.. It is very saddening for us of course, after all they are our brother nation.. but the same phenomenon is also presence in Pakistan too. I've traveled everywhere, seen and inspected all these armies myself. You travel to the north of Pakistan.. And you see that the army there is made up by people living in those regions. You cannot call that a national army...


Essentially he made this kind of statements along with all other things. The debate I was curious to talk about is...


Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank!

this comment is misinformed or misunderstood. Pakistan army is the most nationalised army possible. as for the Northern areas .. it is just common sense that people of that region will make a bigger portion of a force specially raised to defend the northern areas of Pakistan. there is no confusion. there is unify of command and control. the personale from general pool of the military from soliders and officers are also part of these regional forces like FC, FF, NLI etc . the bigger participation of locals in a border / regional force is similar to his drive to encourage Hakkari people mentioned in his comments.

@Irfan Baloch @Xeric @fatman @Horus @menticore @Dazzler these r the guys who can tell u the real composition and structural thinking of our Armed Forces, or if possible can point u towards relevant threads.

However do know one thing that as of now and for past 15 years we had been fighting wars in our north western areas where terrain is very rugged and mountainous. Hence people from north which is itself mountainous r in army formations deployed in those areas but if u go to our armored corps, or forces deployed in east and south east, u will find local people. Especially paramilitary forces like Rangers etc.

yes that is true

the quoted guy contradicts himself by saying on one hand that he encouraged Hakkaris and in the second he questions the larger portion of northern area people in our NLI for example..

all our forces and its branches have the people from every ethnicity. Punjab regiment for example is NOT just made up of Punjabi soldiers and officers but has people from ALL ethnicity and same is the case with other branches.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

He should rather focus on his own army and rogue elements who tried to stage a coupe instead of the most professional army in the world which is praised even by its enemies and critics for its discipline and professionalism.

No harsh attitude towards Turks, bro.....

 

[Arsalan]

Hi brothers and sisters of the brotherly nation Pakistan!

This is a debate, so not necessarily a news subject. Our ex-chief of the general staff literally just said (he is right now speaking live on TV, talking about all the developments around the region including the coup, Syria intervention, ISIS and counter-terrorism in general) and he said (NOT quote!):


-The matter of national army is too important. When I was the chief and head of ground forces also, I've personally worked on this to increase this matter as much as possible. Our vision was an army made by everyone from Edirne to Hakkari. When I checked the results of conscripts, I was shocked to see there is no joining from Hakkari. As you see, the education level of that city is pretty low. So I've instructed the regional commanders to open courses to increase the level of participation in education and thus increase the participation to the army from that city. This kind of phenomenon is proven to be a very important matter. Look at Syria, yet alone having a national army, they don't even have an army to begin with. Look at Iraq, there is Barzani in the north of the country.. Kurdish Peshmerga under Barzani is in the north, in the other sides of the country there are shia and sunni elements. And to get real, those elements would not even fight for other territories of their own country. We have seen it occurring with our own eyes there, Iraqi soldiers running away from enemies because they thought it was not their fight. That is not a national army. We look at Iran, they don't even have one army! It is so funny, they have two armies instead and they both operate dependently on separate entities. Can we really say this a national army? Another weird fact is that the guards there does not even serve the government nor the president. They serve the religious leader of the country.. All these armies are very dangerous armies. Armies that are not national armies are very dangerous. Then we look at Afghanistan.. There is barely any government there yet alone an army. And look at Pakistan.. I mean.. It is very saddening for us of course, after all they are our brother nation.. but the same phenomenon is also presence in Pakistan too. I've traveled everywhere, seen and inspected all these armies myself. You travel to the north of Pakistan.. And you see that the army there is made up by people living in those regions. You cannot call that a national army...


Essentially he made this kind of statements along with all other things. The debate I was curious to talk about is...


Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank!

Thanks for sharing this. However i am afraid that the General is wrong. I am not sure about the other countries that he mentioned but i am sure he is wrong about Pakistan. Also the reference that he gave " Go to north and the army there is made up of people from north" is an indication of where he actually mixed things up. In north we have lot of paramilitary units and Levi working there. They are made up of the locals and he clearly misunderstood/mixed things with that. Otherwise all of the country, all regions have adequate representation in the army and people are serving/posted not based on where they come from. If that is what he calls a nation army then ours is one.

@waz @Oscar
Sir/s we have excellent brotherly relation with our Turk brothers even on this forum So kindly regulate / moderate those subjects which could be became cause of rifts between the two nations even on this forum.

I request you to Kindly delete or block this thread.

No need really. I hope sensible members are here and everyone will understand what the confusion was. It is good to get such things ouut and i will thank @Soul for bringing this up. I hope it is clear now where the mistake was made.