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[DEBATE]Our Ex-Chief of Staff:"... Pakistan doesn't have a national army."

It seems to me he is totally unaware of the Pakistan region, her culture, Army structure and most importantly tribal regions and their values and culture.............he could have search on Wikipedia before to give such comments......if didn't have information :p:
 
this comment is misinformed or misunderstood. Pakistan army is the most nationalised army possible. as for the Northern areas .. it is just common sense that people of that region will make a bigger portion of a force specially raised to defend the northern areas of Pakistan. there is no confusion. there is unify of command and control. the personale from general pool of the military from soliders and officers are also part of these regional forces like FC, FF, NLI etc . the bigger participation of locals in a border / regional force is similar to his drive to encourage Hakkari people mentioned in his comments.


yes that is true

the quoted guy contradicts himself by saying on one hand that he encouraged Hakkaris and in the second he questions the larger portion of northern area people in our NLI for example..

all our forces and its branches have the people from every ethnicity. Punjab regiment for example is NOT just made up of Punjabi soldiers and officers but has people from ALL ethnicity and same is the case with other branches.
yes my father served in FF while we r Kashmiris from AJK. Gen Raheel Sharif is a punjabi rajput but served in FF. And ur dear friend Irfan Baloch is an example too Who is a Balochi but served in -- regiment.:whistle:
 
Hi brothers and sisters of the brotherly nation Pakistan!

This is a debate, so not necessarily a news subject. Our ex-chief of the general staff literally just said (he is right now speaking live on TV, talking about all the developments around the region including the coup, Syria intervention, ISIS and counter-terrorism in general) and he said (NOT quote!):


-The matter of national army is too important. When I was the chief and head of ground forces also, I've personally worked on this to increase this matter as much as possible. Our vision was an army made by everyone from Edirne to Hakkari. When I checked the results of conscripts, I was shocked to see there is no joining from Hakkari. As you see, the education level of that city is pretty low. So I've instructed the regional commanders to open courses to increase the level of participation in education and thus increase the participation to the army from that city. This kind of phenomenon is proven to be a very important matter. Look at Syria, yet alone having a national army, they don't even have an army to begin with. Look at Iraq, there is Barzani in the north of the country.. Kurdish Peshmerga under Barzani is in the north, in the other sides of the country there are shia and sunni elements. And to get real, those elements would not even fight for other territories of their own country. We have seen it occuring with our own eyes there, Iraqi soldiers running away from enemies because they thought it was not their fight. That is not a national army. We look at Iran, they don't even have one army! It is so funny, they have two armies instead and they both operate dependently on separate entities. Can we really say this a national army? Another weird fact is that the guards there does not even serve the government nor the president. They serve the religious leader of the country.. All these armies are very dangerous armies. Armies that are not national armies are very dangerous. Then we look at Afghanistan.. There is barely any government there yet alone an army. And look at Pakistan.. I mean.. It is very saddening for us of course, after all they are our brother nation.. but the same phenomenon is also presence in Pakistan too. I've traveled everywhere, seen and inspected all these armies myself. You travel to the north of Pakistan.. And you see that the army there is made up by people living in those regions. You cannot call that a national army...


Essentially he made this kind of statements along with all other things. The debate I was curious to talk about is...


Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank!


No Pak army regiment has more than 50% troops from the same ethnicity even the regiments based on provinces ..


In the North we have Paramilitary units like the Frontier Corps which are mostly composed of soldiers from the same region and every provincial based Paramilitaries recruits locally but again even those are not exclusively composed of locals.

We have several paramilitary units for different provinces & territories.

While our Army is a purely national one ..
 
No harsh attitude towards Turks, bro.....

He is an individual and I'm treating him like that and we have difference of opinion among Pakistanis too and even with our family members, so as long as I don't use any bad words, I think it is fine :). I even agree with him to some extent but perhaps the timing of his statement is not really suitable, I mean a few weeks ago we were discussing the failed coup attempt in Turkey. That does not mean Turkey does not have a powerful, well trained and a professional army but it showed a big rift within its rank which is a serious thing. Pak army has faced multiple issues and situations and I know opinion were divided on certain issues like in the initial phase of war on terror etc but it never amounted to cause a major rift in its ranks. An army is all about its discipline...more than the weapons and training.
I don't think that should affect Pak-Turkish friendship so don't worry man everything is fine :)
 
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The Turkish army consists of compulsory military training for all able bodied males - so the national army. But, I think the Pak army is professional and voluntary, and its units are based on provincial level as designed during the British rule. So, the difference should be quite obvious. The current government is working on a more professional army based on merit and thorough recruitment process. Moreover, they're planning to shorten the military service period for common folks..

Even provincial regiments like Panjab or Frontier Force Piffers aren't allowed to have more than 50% troops from the same ethnic background.. Every regiment is mixed.


Paramilitary units are mostly composed of locals but other ethnic groups aren't bared from recruitment either.

Their officers again come from the Army on deputation and are from different ethnic groups.

He must be Talking about " Northern Light Infantry". and it's a fact if you would visit a specific region or province you would surely see most people of that same Region like General is talking about Northern Region. So what if the Army men is from North or south Region the important thing is he is "Pakistani" and he is well Trained and well Equipped. i would consider it as Stupid Argument "Sorry".
Cizh0MIWgAAc_1a.jpg

@Soul. @HAKIKAT


GB population makes leas than 7-10% of entire Pak population yet compared to their population they are over represented.


The above unit is from Northern Light Infantry regiment that was honoured and merged with Pakistan army because of the valor and gallantry shown by its men.

NLIs 10TH NLI "HAIDRAN" Unit is also Pak army's highest decorated unit ...
These guys we're paramilitary just 1.5 decades back.

Hi brothers and sisters of the brotherly nation Pakistan!

This is a debate, so not necessarily a news subject. Our ex-chief of the general staff literally just said (he is right now speaking live on TV, talking about all the developments around the region including the coup, Syria intervention, ISIS and counter-terrorism in general) and he said (NOT quote!):


-The matter of national army is too important. When I was the chief and head of ground forces also, I've personally worked on this to increase this matter as much as possible. Our vision was an army made by everyone from Edirne to Hakkari. When I checked the results of conscripts, I was shocked to see there is no joining from Hakkari. As you see, the education level of that city is pretty low. So I've instructed the regional commanders to open courses to increase the level of participation in education and thus increase the participation to the army from that city. This kind of phenomenon is proven to be a very important matter. Look at Syria, yet alone having a national army, they don't even have an army to begin with. Look at Iraq, there is Barzani in the north of the country.. Kurdish Peshmerga under Barzani is in the north, in the other sides of the country there are shia and sunni elements. And to get real, those elements would not even fight for other territories of their own country. We have seen it occuring with our own eyes there, Iraqi soldiers running away from enemies because they thought it was not their fight. That is not a national army. We look at Iran, they don't even have one army! It is so funny, they have two armies instead and they both operate dependently on separate entities. Can we really say this a national army? Another weird fact is that the guards there does not even serve the government nor the president. They serve the religious leader of the country.. All these armies are very dangerous armies. Armies that are not national armies are very dangerous. Then we look at Afghanistan.. There is barely any government there yet alone an army. And look at Pakistan.. I mean.. It is very saddening for us of course, after all they are our brother nation.. but the same phenomenon is also presence in Pakistan too. I've traveled everywhere, seen and inspected all these armies myself. You travel to the north of Pakistan.. And you see that the army there is made up by people living in those regions. You cannot call that a national army...


Essentially he made this kind of statements along with all other things. The debate I was curious to talk about is...


Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank!

He probably was talking about FC KPK;


Example of FC :


Major Jawad Khan Changezi Shaheed .. He was the officer who was martyred after the afghans started firing at Torkham Border:

image.jpeg


He was Hazara .. Most of his Men were Pashtun;

image.jpeg


Old uniform of FC KPK;

image.jpeg



FC KPK is a paramilitary and its recruits are mostly from the same province although recruitment from other provinces is not bared ..

It's just one of our regional paramilitary units numbering almost quarter of a million soldiers.

Pakistan's army is a national army through and through. There was internal debate once about the dominance of Punjab province in the Army as most of our soldiers, officers, and generals come from this province--however, in 2009, Pakistan Army announced a policy of wider integration--and since then, all regions of Pakistan are contributing in the construction of Pakistan Army more proportionally.

There were terrorist militias in our tribal region, but those regions have been completely taken over by our military assault and these terrorist organizations have been completely destroyed and are now seeing shelter in Afghanistan.

Regarding Northern region having army made up of locals---I don't know what he meant by it. May be some units in Azad Kashmir (which isn't our "province" but under our control---but has its own parliament etc) were local units made up of locals which gave the general this impression.

But rest assured, Pakistan Army is a national Army and is a unified force covering every inch of Pakistan.

Azad Kashmir Regiment was a seperate force till the 70s.. It was a "Kashmiri" army rather than part of PA.

It was merged into the PA as Honor due to its performance in war.
 
Thanks for sharing this. However i am afraid that the General is wrong. I am not sure about the other countries that he mentioned but i am sure he is wrong about Pakistan. Also the reference that he gave " Go to north and the army there is made up of people from north" is an indication of where he actually mixed things up. In north we have lot of paramilitary units and Levi working there. They are made up of the locals and he clearly misunderstood/mixed things with that. Otherwise all of the country, all regions have adequate representation in the army and people are serving/posted not based on where they come from. If that is what he calls a nation army then ours is one.


No need really. I hope sensible members are here and everyone will understand what the confusion was. It is good to get such things ouut and i will thank @Soul for bringing this up. I hope it is clear now where the mistake was made.
@Arsalan @Irfan Baloch i guess the possible explanation could be that as of now especially in past 10 years we have made turks train with our most battle hardened forces which r these days obviously our forces from north like AJK regiment, NLI, FC, FF etc.......Just to give u an example that the last exercise with turks was in G-B in high altitude warfare front with NLI.
 
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Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank!
Pakistani nation as a whole is a nation built around a political two nations theory, once the theory started to sound obsolete in post Pakistan's creation, the theory was revigorized by introducing India as the key rival to this two nations theory. This ideological hardening picked up in 80s when a more radical version of the same theory was applied on Russia to make use of Jihadi resources deployed in Afghanistan. Army, being closely allied to the theory professes her as not only the defender of geographical but also ideological boundries of Pakistan. Pakistan's ethnic diversity needed to be bounded somehow. Its just like you try to make a Merc work by using parts of ford, fiat, volksvagon and toyota. Pakistan needed some recipe which would make such arrangements work and the recipie chosen was that of Religion as nationalism. So Pakistan army turned into "Pak army". Pakistan's dynamics have been driven by religion so much that the national identity has been dependent upon the religious identity of the folks. By the virtue of ethnic diversity, Pakistan can not have a national army like Turky,Germany,France etc because racial homogenization is impossible to achieve which would give way to nationalistic identity so the only alternative albeit a risky one is the use of religious identity to achieve this harmony.
 
This is a debate, so not necessarily a news subject. Our ex-chief of the general staff literally just said (he is right now speaking live on TV, talking about all the developments around the region including the coup, Syria intervention, ISIS and counter-terrorism in general) and he said (NOT quote!):


-The matter of national army is too important. When I was the chief and head of ground forces also, I've personally worked on this to increase this matter as much as possible. Our vision was an army made by everyone from Edirne to Hakkari. When I checked the results of conscripts, I was shocked to see there is no joining from Hakkari. As you see, the education level of that city is pretty low. So I've instructed the regional commanders to open courses to increase the level of participation in education and thus increase the participation to the army from that city. This kind of phenomenon is proven to be a very important matter. Look at Syria, yet alone having a national army, they don't even have an army to begin with. Look at Iraq, there is Barzani in the north of the country.. Kurdish Peshmerga under Barzani is in the north, in the other sides of the country there are shia and sunni elements. And to get real, those elements would not even fight for other territories of their own country. We have seen it occuring with our own eyes there, Iraqi soldiers running away from enemies because they thought it was not their fight. That is not a national army. We look at Iran, they don't even have one army! It is so funny, they have two armies instead and they both operate dependently on separate entities. Can we really say this a national army? Another weird fact is that the guards there does not even serve the government nor the president. They serve the religious leader of the country.. All these armies are very dangerous armies. Armies that are not national armies are very dangerous. Then we look at Afghanistan.. There is barely any government there yet alone an army. And look at Pakistan.. I mean.. It is very saddening for us of course, after all they are our brother nation.. but the same phenomenon is also presence in Pakistan too. I've traveled everywhere, seen and inspected all these armies myself. You travel to the north of Pakistan.. And you see that the army there is made up by people living in those regions. You cannot call that a national army...


Essentially he made this kind of statements along with all other things. The debate I was curious to talk about is...


Is this real? Does Pakistan really not have a national army? I thought we organized the Pak-Army so thought the systems there would be parallel to those we have in our own army. That sounded very strange for us.

I am looking forward to learn more on this subject!


Thank![/QUOTE]

In the olden days to spread hatred, some people use to call Pakistan Army" Punjabi army" this thread is basically doing the same, but with a little twist.

This thread has no source and we have no way of knowing what the ex-chief exactly did or didn't say and in what context. This thread falls into the category of spreading hatred and nothing more
 
May you please elaborate a bit more on NATIONAL ARMY,. How do you define a national Army ?
 
butt in Pakistan .... its possible... are ARMY not do this

i just say this thing

ہماری قوم میں دو طرح کے لوگ ہیں
١ شوکین جنھیں بوٹ کھانے کا شوق ہے اور
٢ پالیشیے جنہیں بوٹ پالش کرنے کا شوق ہے
 
ہماری قوم میں دو طرح کے لوگ ہیں
١ شوکین جنھیں بوٹ کھانے کا شوق ہے اور
٢ پالیشیے جنہیں بوٹ پالش کرنے کا شوق ہے
 
butt in Pakistan .... its possible... are ARMY not do this

i just say this thing

ہماری قوم میں دو طرح کے لوگ ہیں
١ شوکین جنھیں بوٹ کھانے کا شوق ہے اور
٢ پالیشیے جنہیں بوٹ پالش کرنے کا شوق ہے
What has this got to do with the Army???
 
@Arsalan @Irfan Baloch i guess the possible explanation could be that as of now especially in past 10 years we have made turks train with our most battle hardened forces which r these days obviously our forces from north like AJK regiment, NLI, FC, FF etc.......Just to give u an example that the last exercise with turks was in G-B in high altitude warfare front with NLI.
Na dear the explanation is the same as given earlier. He is mixing some other groups with army. Plus it may also be a case that he saw those FC and NLI troops more often and thus this assumption. Again, that is like comparing these groups with the main army units and there composition.
 

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