Debate between Pak-Army Soldier & Taliban & Pakistan's WoT

[iPhone]

Two wrongs do not make a right. Even if TTP is WRONG/Terrorist, it doesnt mean we (army) bomb them too, and let america do the same and keep supporting uncle sam for $$$$..

if TTP kills innocent people. Army kills innocent people.
TTP is foreign funded (i highly doubt it), Pakistan Army is foreign funded too ($$$)
TTP says its fighting for Islam, Pakistan Army says its fighting for Pakistan
TTP fights America too, Pakistan Army kisses their feet
TTP bombed mosques, Pakistan Army bombed mosques...
TTP lies... Pakistan Army lies...

I just dont get it.. People who oppose TTP, why do they support the Army?

are you stupid or something? ttp has dilibertly sent it's mad bombers into public to death and destruction. You know what forget it, you are what are, you wont change.

 

[niazifighter]

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. You will buy the info that further strengthen your belief and I will buy that strengthens mine.



Which goes against your argument that the Army does not allow journalists to report from FATA.



I will happily right a description but I must remind you that you did not post the video you had mentioned either.
Description:*Taliban "Naat"(self praising song) plays in the background* A talib on a motorcycle drives through a deserted bazzar as the man behind him films, he takes a turn and suddenly the shot is cut and resumes but the guy in front has changed and so have many of the surrounding structures, the market is now filled with destroyed cars and the façade of the market is considerably damaged*Voice in the background: This Tangkhata Bazaar was targeted by the heavy artillery of Pakistan Army, there are over 300 dead and many more injured, businesses have been destroyed in the the Army's euphoria of power and people have no means of earning their bread, the Taliban shall avenge the people of Bajaur, God-willing* . They drive through the destroyed bazzar which is completely deserted and take care to focus on all the destroyed cars. There is debris strewn across the road and suddenly the shot is cut again. The shot resumes and the the old guy is back as they leave the bazzar. The Shot is cut again and resumes on an open road where a decomposed body of an FC soldier is lying on the road. The riders dismount the bike and kick the dead body*Dogs, the guy in front says*, they turn it over by kicking it and the one with the camera says: God has disfigured the murtad's face, he now reflects the evil he has committed and now resembles the devil with whom his soul pledged loyalty. Our people remain fresh for eternity, even after death because they are shaheed and God himself protects their bodies from decay, their bodies smell of the flowers of heaven who's garlands the angels put around their necks as they pay their respect to them. *Other Guy: Subhan Allah*.

The scene from the market was cut from an Afghan Taliban film which showed the result of an ISAF air strike that accidentally hit the bazaar which was situated in Kunnar. We saw the original film as well and copies were given of both videos to journalists as well. Truth is that there are no Artillery batteries around Tangkhatta the damage does not match the ballistic profile of an artillery strike. A large crater and damage to the surrounding structures is not Artillery damage.

Is that a good enough description for you ?



The whole point of a covert operation is to complete the op covertly, which means maintaining complete secrecy.
I don't see where you are taking this but it seems like a desperate attempt at derailing the discussion as it is in no way in context of this entire exchange.



You are welcome to provide an alternate version of the story, with facts.



Pockets of resistance still remain, that's the thing about an insurgency it just doesn't end after the parties agree to halt hostilities like in a conventional war. The Taliban still have small concentrations that operate in those areas and when need be, their positions are targeted by the air force.



Already addressed.



Source that shows that the PAF bombed a POPULATED area.



This leverage is allowed to the Intelligence agencies by the constitution and the government. The ISI is operating within it's defined parameters. Remember when the court insisted and Sufi Mohammad was produced before the KPK HC, the convoy was ambushed and two of Sufi Mohammad's commanders were killed to stop them from giving testimony against the Taliban. The attackers also tried to take Sufi Mohammad but fortunately the Police was able to resist the attackers. That's why terror suspects are not produced before the court, at least not declared to.



The information helps protect innocents from all sorts of damage. So necessary means are used to extract the information.



That would be a very poor way to prove your point. They are two separate entities with divergent interests and concerns.
As for the use of torture, that is a global Modus Operandi when all else fails. It's not the first step in intel extraction, it is the last.
First is temptation, then intimidation, then deprivation and then if all else fails comes torture.
Usually however, subjects break at step 2.


A military tribunal and a military commission were established within the first week of the Parade Lane Incident to find out what went wrong, who was involved and bring the guilty to justice.



I can't say but are you saying that her husband isn't a good enough source ?
They were his children too that the woman took into the mouth of the devil along with herself, I would think he would be most concerned out of all relevant parties.



The murder was too crude, if you said the Bhutto brothers were killed by the agencies, I might have believed you but Saleem Shahzad's murder was too crude. And can you give me a single reason to believe that he WAS killed by the agencies ?

firstly i agree you believe on your whim i on mine

journalists.........i said independent journalist if you know one then please let me know....hayat khan was one

description...............good now post the video so your argument is supported by proof..........or only provide the video title so i can find it one jihadi forums i tried but of no use e.g ummat, jundullah, al sahab.

original video taliban............any link....ok please provide the name of media outlet which released the video there are two official afghan taliban channel alemarah and manba al jihad.... unless i see the video i cannot testify your claims..

covert op.......i am derailing debate???? i questioned why army lied you said because of secrecy then i said ok if it was a covert operation a joint one then why america didn't kept secrecy??? no answer from you,so who is derailing???
i again question why america didn't kept it secret?? what was the cooperation then??? solve the anomaly...

already addressed......how??? my question is simple...you yourself said drone target leadership in populated area so same can be said of ttp was ttp leadership targeted??? if yes then what about collateral damage?

sources........here are

here is another video which shows laddha bazar and an electric pole which refers to a populated area probably someplace in "kunar"

leverage..........refer the law please???.....constitution clause please..............my question which you dodged expertly was why supreme court orders in case of marriot suspects were defied???sufi mohammand commanders are irrelevant,sufi mohamand is in peshawar jail take him to court and make him testify against talibans whats the problem?? this time i want answer no ramblings.....

isi and cia.............different interests..........both are committed to fight against terror and both cooperate extensively..
unfortunately torture is the first step in interrogation when it comes to isi and pakistani forces

tribunal................where are the findings...........i think two years are enough or we have to wait and wait and wait..................

dr afia................you didn't answer my question about numerous reports of afia capture from karachi in 2003 and isi role are they all false??????
i agree she was al qaeda operative but did she deserve the treatment meted out to her??? very sad i decry both cia and isi for the violation
why should i believe her former husband and not her sister and mother reasons??????????????

saleem shehzad..............
my answer......hahahahaha
i can only laugh but with one reason...

hayat khan..........make my story??????? just one question why journalists like saleem shehzad and hayat khan are killed whom reports in some way benefit talibans on the other hand journalists who rants against talibans are not even touched....

 

[StandForInsaf]

firstly i agree you believe on your whim i on mine

journalists.........i said independent journalist if you know one then please let me know....hayat khan was one

description...............good now post the video so your argument is supported by proof..........or only provide the video title so i can find it one jihadi forums i tried but of no use e.g ummat, jundullah, al sahab.

original video taliban............any link....ok please provide the name of media outlet which released the video there are two official afghan taliban channel alemarah and manba al jihad.... unless i see the video i cannot testify your claims..

covert op.......i am derailing debate???? i questioned why army lied you said because of secrecy then i said ok if it was a covert operation a joint one then why america didn't kept secrecy??? no answer from you,so who is derailing???
i again question why america didn't kept it secret?? what was the cooperation then??? solve the anomaly...

already addressed......how??? my question is simple...you yourself said drone target leadership in populated area so same can be said of ttp was ttp leadership targeted??? if yes then what about collateral damage?

sources........here are

here is another video which shows laddha bazar and an electric pole which refers to a populated area probably someplace in "kunar"

leverage..........refer the law please???.....constitution clause please..............my question which you dodged expertly was why supreme court orders in case of marriot suspects were defied???sufi mohammand commanders are irrelevant,sufi mohamand is in peshawar jail take him to court and make him testify against talibans whats the problem?? this time i want answer no ramblings.....

isi and cia.............different interests..........both are committed to fight against terror and both cooperate extensively..
unfortunately torture is the first step in interrogation when it comes to isi and pakistani forces

tribunal................where are the findings...........i think two years are enough or we have to wait and wait and wait..................

dr afia................you didn't answer my question about numerous reports of afia capture from karachi in 2003 and isi role are they all false??????
i agree she was al qaeda operative but did she deserve the treatment meted out to her??? very sad i decry both cia and isi for the violation
why should i believe her former husband and not her sister and mother reasons??????????????

saleem shehzad..............
my answer......hahahahaha
i can only laugh but with one reason...

hayat khan..........make my story??????? just one question why journalists like saleem shehzad and hayat khan are killed whom reports in some way benefit talibans on the other hand journalists who rants against talibans are not even touched....

Few words from this terrorist supporters videos .

"Bachay Kahan jatay hain school?"
"school nahi wo to school nahi jata , school to fauj nay gara daye"
"ye to ab madrassa jaye ga"

You gona be kiding me .... every one knows who is against school
Madrassa jaye ga ? kyoun bahi zabardasti hai kya bacho ka modern education par koye haq nahi ?

Police wala ko bhaga dya parada parta tha this is epic stupidity. Lame excuse to hide crime against law order enforcement agency.

Well done PAK ARMY cleared TTP dogs from swat.

 

[rameez ahmed]

We Pakistanis stand united against any threat from these Dogs of Hellfire . . Islam never allows armed aggression and rebellion against the muslims and its elected Government (no matter how corrupt the government is) . . . . Islam favors and orders to bring change through peaceful means and not like these TTP Kharjies who are killing innocents without any justification . . . .

These so called Spreaders of Islam are infact the one about whom Holy Prophet (SA) have stated that these Kharjites are dogs of Hellfire. . Further he said that the one who kill them will get great rewards, and the one who is martyred by these Kharjites are the best of the Martyrs. . .

So I salute my Armed Forces and Pray that they kill each and every Kharji who is spreading terror in the name of Islam and not surrendering to the armed forces and is not making Tauba from ALLAH . . . . AMEEN. . .

Islam and Pakistan ZINDABAAAD

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Niaz thanks for the post, which helps give a lot of insights into the nature and tactics of the enemy.....

a huge part of any war -- conventional or unconventional (insurgency type) --- deception always plays a substantial role.

 

[niazifighter]

Few words from this terrorist supporters videos .

"Bachay Kahan jatay hain school?"
"school nahi wo to school nahi jata , school to fauj nay gara daye"
"ye to ab madrassa jaye ga"

You gona be kiding me .... every one knows who is against school
Madrassa jaye ga ? kyoun bahi zabardasti hai kya bacho ka modern education par koye haq nahi ?

Police wala ko bhaga dya parada parta tha this is epic stupidity. Lame excuse to hide crime against law order enforcement agency.

Well done PAK ARMY cleared TTP dogs from swat.

its a video made by saleem shehzad which was posted to make point about saleem shehzad murder. taliban supporter............well thats exactly what i want to say a journalist who's reports usually support talibans is killed so ISI is automatically under suspicion

words from video............its your opinion i respect but why lie to nation just admit talibs bombed schools because they were used as shelter for army

 

[niazifighter]

We Pakistanis stand united against any threat from these Dogs of Hellfire . . Islam never allows armed aggression and rebellion against the muslims and its elected Government (no matter how corrupt the government is) . . . . Islam favors and orders to bring change through peaceful means and not like these TTP Kharjies who are killing innocents without any justification . . . .

These so called Spreaders of Islam are infact the one about whom Holy Prophet (SA) have stated that these Kharjites are dogs of Hellfire. . Further he said that the one who kill them will get great rewards, and the one who is martyred by these Kharjites are the best of the Martyrs. . .

So I salute my Armed Forces and Pray that they kill each and every Kharji who is spreading terror in the name of Islam and not surrendering to the armed forces and is not making Tauba from ALLAH . . . . AMEEN. . .

Islam and Pakistan ZINDABAAAD

don,t you think imam hussein r.a launched armed rebellion against islamic government now don't say yazeed was not elected non-democratic way if this is the reason then is it islamic to rebel against saudi king or jordanian king?????????????

kharjis.............i think you are being fooled because kharjis are obsolete now taliban resemble them in some aspects just like taliban staunch enemies like you resemble murjias which is a sect cursed eternally according to hadith....so are you people murjias???? study all meticulous details about the subject then make opinion

 

[StandForInsaf]

its a video made by saleem shehzad which was posted to make point about saleem shehzad murder. taliban supporter............well thats exactly what i want to say a journalist who's reports usually support talibans is killed so ISI is automatically under suspicion

words from video............its your opinion i respect but why lie to nation just admit talibs bombed schools because they were used as shelter for army

what the heck yar , i will never support mass murders , who are a kinda mumbo jumbo , what talibs these savages murder innocent civilian of my country , they are against my country , constitution , law , army , democracy , judiciary ,freedom ,educaton , they call us pakistanis infidals and always rdy to kill us, they treat women like animal , the thing they accept is just bullet.. why should i respect them , open your eyes...............

ye kutay hain kutay rahin gay.

Pakistan Zindabad.

 

[niazifighter]

what the heck yar , i will never support mass murders , who are a kinda mumbo jumbo , what talibs these savages murder innocent civilian of my country , they are against my country , constitution , law , army , democracy , judiciary ,freedom ,educaton , they call us pakistanis infidals and always rdy to kill us, they treat women like animal , the thing they accept is just bullet.. why should i respect them , open your eyes...............

ye kutay hain kutay rahin gay.

Pakistan Zindabad.

same way i would not accept army savages brutally murdering saleem shehzad and hayat khan, bombing population especially madrassahs and mosques, conducting drone attacks on own population, whisking away own countrymen with a callous disregard of human rights
sorry i cant use foul language but i can say ttp and army no difference

 

[StandForInsaf]

same way i would not accept army savages brutally murdering saleem shehzad and hayat khan, bombing population especially madrassahs and mosques, conducting drone attacks on own population, whisking away own countrymen with a callous disregard of human rights
sorry i cant use foul language but i can say ttp and army no difference

False and fake allegations on defenders of Pakistan , you are living safe in Lahore as per your profile location because of army defending it from all internal and external threats ,

and if you feel some thing army has done wrong go to courts if you cant do it then just shut up...

PaK Army Zindabad.
Pakistan Zindabad.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

For Gods' sake do not equate what is being done by Taliban and it supporters or the misled cause as the same thing Imam Hussain r.a. did fourteen hundred years ago. It was a political struggle, a struggle for the right to lead (Provided we take out the sectarian angle). The bottom line was that an armed conflict was being avoided by the decendants of our Prophet PBUH. The battle was pushed on them.

Are the Talibs waging a political struggle by mass murder and beheadings? Underminig an islamic state against it enemies by eliminating its war fighting capabilties? There is a state and there is a process to protest and prosecute people. Use it. Be part of the main stream and bring change from within -- not the way it is being done by killing your own people by the dozen just to make a point. By undermning your own state and threatening the very existance of Pakistan.

We can all differ and we do, with the way things are being run. But than there is way to change things, otherwise chaos and mayham will reign. We can all have our own armed gangs and millitias. That was the way 1400 years ago. There is no Jihad today. Islam is a thriving and vibrant religion. There is no "Khatra" to islam -- it is not a religion that was concieived by a mortal that will capitulate in the face of extreme onslaught by it detractors due to fundamental flaws in it. It is here to stay till eternity and beyond.

I ask those who are blindly following the Taliban --what is the best way to weaken the religion? implode it from within?

THE BIGGEST CONSPIRACY AGAINST ISLAM IS TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA. THE ATTEMPT TO TAKE AWAY OUR NUCLEAR ASSETS IS THROUGH AL QAEDA - THIS WHOLE SETUP IS A BRILLIANT MOVE BY THOSE WHO ARE FUNDAMENTALLY OPPOSED TO ISLAM, PAKISTAN, & OUR NUCLEAR CAPABILITY.

Where are the Talibans getting their support from??????? The arms and ammo, the training, the intel. It is a CIA, Mossad, and RAW run operation. The most basic and well tried tactics, divide and rule!!!! Why UAE is not targeted by any activtiy of Al-Qaeda --even when it is declared as one of the most morally corrupt Muslim Regime in Arabia and pro West??? The largest funding of the so called fanatics is from there. Get out of this dillusion of waging a war for Allah.

Talib and their supporters are suckers, being sucked in by the oldest ploy in the book!!!

 

[salmakh84]

For Gods' sake do not equate what is being done by Taliban and it supporters or the misled cause as the same thing Imam Hussain r.a. did fourteen hundred years ago. It was a political struggle, a struggle for the right to lead (Provided we take out the sectarian angle). The bottom line was that an armed conflict was being avoided by the decendants of our Prophet PBUH. The battle was pushed on them.

Are the Talibs waging a political struggle by mass murder and beheadings? Underminig an islamic state against it enemies by eliminating its war fighting capabilties? There is a state and there is a process to protest and prosecute people. Use it. Be part of the main stream and bring change from within -- not the way it is being done by killing your own people by the dozen just to make a point. By undermning your own state and threatening the very existance of Pakistan.

We can all differ and we do, with the way things are being run. But than there is way to change things, otherwise chaos and mayham will reign. We can all have our own armed gangs and millitias. That was the way 1400 years ago. There is no Jihad today. Islam is a thriving and vibrant religion. There is no "Khatra" to islam -- it is not a religion that was concieived by a mortal that will capitulate in the face of extreme onslaught by it detractors due to fundamental flaws in it. It is here to stay till eternity and beyond.

I ask those who are blindly following the Taliban --what is the best way to weaken the religion? implode it from within?

THE BIGGEST CONSPIRACY AGAINST ISLAM IS TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA. THE ATTEMPT TO TAKE AWAY OUR NUCLEAR ASSETS IS THROUGH AL QAEDA - THIS WHOLE SETUP IS A BRILLIANT MOVE BY THOSE WHO ARE FUNDAMENTALLY OPPOSED TO ISLAM, PAKISTAN, & OUR NUCLEAR CAPABILITY.

Where are the Talibans getting their support from??????? The arms and ammo, the training, the intel. It is a CIA, Mossad, and RAW run operation. The most basic and well tried tactics, divide and rule!!!! Why UAE is not targeted by any activtiy of Al-Qaeda --even when it is declared as one of the most morally corrupt Muslim Regime in Arabia and pro West??? The largest funding of the so called fanatics is from there. Get out of this dillusion of waging a war for Allah.

Talib and their supporters are suckers, being sucked in by the oldest ploy in the book!!!

Yes genius, you have it all figured out. Where are you sitting? Afghanistan is getting bombed by taliban? Palestinians are killed by taliban? Iraqis? The WAR has been brought to THEM. They are defending/counter attacking.

We first bombed afghanistan and waziristan... then they started bombing us.

They get weapons from china/russia/america/pakistan's etc black market. money from supporters who BELIEVE IN JIHAD AGAINST THE crusaders and their allies.

And its better than being "sucked in by the oldest ploy in the book rather than be american allies.". Seriously, you still cant digest the fact that PAKISTAN is the SECOND BIGGEST US AID receiver AFTER ISRAEL? How much money did taliban get, compared to Pakistan? Please, facts. Come out of your bubble.

 

[Icarus]

Yes genius, you have it all figured out. Where are you sitting? Afghanistan is getting bombed by taliban? Palestinians are killed by taliban? Iraqis? The WAR has been brought to THEM. They are defending/counter attacking.

We first bombed afghanistan and waziristan... then they started bombing us.

They get weapons from china/russia/america/pakistan's etc black market. money from supporters who BELIEVE IN JIHAD AGAINST THE crusaders and their allies.

And its better than being "sucked in by the oldest ploy in the book rather than be american allies.". Seriously, you still cant digest the fact that PAKISTAN is the SECOND BIGGEST US AID receiver AFTER ISRAEL? How much money did taliban get, compared to Pakistan? Please, facts. Come out of your bubble.

1) I have complete sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
2) The attack on Iraq was unjust and did more to destabilize it than to stabilize it.
3) We never bombed Afghanistan.
4) We never bomber Waziristan, first suicide attack happened in 2002, first 500 pounder landed in late Waziristan in 2009. And the Wazirs were supportive of PA in removing the TTP from their lands that is why the Bhittani, Mehsud and Wazir Lashkars fought alonside the PA during the entire operation and even now they man security checkpoints along with the PA.
5) They get money from dirty oil sheikhs who sell their oil to the powers and then send a fraction of their billions of dollars to the Taliban to propagate their Salafi ideology through violence and murder. They are hypocrites.
6) Pakistan got only US$ 12 Billion from the US in the last decade whereas over US$ 38 Billion go every year in rehabilitating Afghanistan. US$ 50 Billion is the CIA's annual budget. Just putting things in perspective for you.

 

[salmakh84]

1) I have complete sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
2) The attack on Iraq was unjust and did more to destabilize it than to stabilize it.
3) We never bombed Afghanistan.
4) We never bomber Waziristan, first suicide attack happened in 2002, first 500 pounder landed in late Waziristan in 2009. And the Wazirs were supportive of PA in removing the TTP from their lands that is why the Bhittani, Mehsud and Wazir Lashkars fought alonside the PA during the entire operation and even now they man security checkpoints along with the PA.
5) They get money from dirty oil sheikhs who sell their oil to the powers and then send a fraction of their billions of dollars to the Taliban to propagate their Salafi ideology through violence and murder. They are hypocrites.
6) Pakistan got only US$ 12 Billion from the US in the last decade whereas over US$ 38 Billion go every year in rehabilitating Afghanistan. US$ 50 Billion is the CIA's annual budget. Just putting things in perspective for you.

Your point 3. Ok. We gave them fuel, bases and supplies to BOMB afghanistan, NO?
4.) Please get your facts straight. Google. Mushy started operations way back.. FCs and PA mans the checkpoints. They are under constant threat. Some areas, the locals support them under "aman lashkars" (who take money from our army)
5.) Taliban are deobandi. Arabs are salafis. They are together because of jihad. But most arabs are corrupt, yes. American allies. (esp UAE, Saudi kings etc)
6.) Only 12$billion. Only. Lols..
the money for afghanistan.. its used for Bombs and F-16s and JDAMS and DRONES and hiring SPIES for drones etc.. They are not cheap. They also include the pay of US Soldiers.

So, ok, for a second lets assume Talibs are CIA/RAW/Mossad agents.. WHY does PA support American WoT then? Only 12 billion

 

[Irfan Baloch]

So, ok, for a second lets assume Talibs are CIA/RAW/Mossad agents.. WHY does PA support American WoT then? Only 12 billion

what are your suggestions instead?

re 12 billion with a smiley are suggesting its too much for the lives lost and the loss to the economy?