Dear Americans We DON'T hate your "Freedoms".

[MilSpec]

Is it in your national interest to have killed thousand of Sikhs in the 80's, then hundred of thousands of Muslims and Christians by terrorist organizations like RSS, Shiv Sena, BJP who happen to be in gov't or hold the media and gov't close to them??? And nothing comes out in the news or bare minimum comes out??? Why is it that I have NEVER seen ONE Indian person condemn the terrorism related acts done by their own Hindu brethren but if there was a Muslim or Christian doing it, you'll be painting an Indian flag on every single post? Why don't you guys condemn Hindu terrorism when your own gov't accepted multiple times you have fundamental Hindu terrorist training camps in the country?????? I'd love to see for ONCE an Indian condemning the Hindu terrorism. You ask others to do so....why is it different for you? A terrorist is a terrorist. No exceptions!!

Plain as always Off topic Garbage on a thread discussing America and pakistan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KRAIT]

Is it in your national interest to have killed thousand of Sikhs in the 80's, then hundred of thousands of Muslims and Christians by terrorist organizations like RSS, Shiv Sena, BJP who happen to be in gov't or hold the media and gov't close to them??? And nothing comes out in the news or bare minimum comes out??? Why is it that I have NEVER seen ONE Indian person condemn the terrorism related acts done by their own Hindu brethren but if there was a Muslim or Christian doing it, you'll be painting an Indian flag on every single post? Why don't you guys condemn Hindu terrorism when your own gov't accepted multiple times you have fundamental Hindu terrorist training camps in the country?????? I'd love to see for ONCE an Indian condemning the Hindu terrorism. You ask others to do so....why is it different for you? A terrorist is a terrorist. No exceptions!!

Didn't I tell you ? You can post the links of previous posts you made. You say same thing over and over again.

If you are too lazy to think something new and type, why don't do simple copy paste.

ANd BTW topic is not India.


@muse Kindly read post # 12

http://www.defence.pk/forums/americ...s-we-dont-hate-your-freedoms.html#post3843133


BTW US president said Myanmar to stop violence against Rohingyan Muslims too. Hope you notice that. Except Turkey, no Muslim nation come to their rescue or help.

Why blame US which do something for Muslim nations while even being Muslim nation yourself, you didn't do anything for Muslims of Myanmar, Syria. Bangladesh didn't even give refuge to those Muslims.

65 Syrian dead bodies are found yesterday with their hands tied back. Its Genocide. Had it been happened in India, entire Pakistan would have been shouting out loud.US want to intervene. Russia and China don't want it. Why are Pakistan and other Islamic countries silent ?

Should we really blame US for crimes against Muslim. Iran-Iraq war was between Muslim nations. Why didn't people talk of religion then ? US is just doing what is best for its interest just like India, Pakistan or any other country do.

 

[haviZsultan]

I have a lot of Muslim and Hindu friends (besides my local friends) so I hear all about this stuff. Honestly, these guys are happy and proud to be in the US and don't ever want to go back. They tell me all the time that the only thing back home (where they came from) is their family and culture. There isn't any freedom, respect of human life and team work as a nation. It's individualism, force by the rich and higher class elites and a total disrespect for the humanity. I know someone told me from India and also from Pakistan that if you spoke against certain political parties, they'll kill you. In India, they might burn your house with you and your family in it. Has happened hundreds of thousands of times in India to Muslims and Christians alike.

Muslims have fake ego in my opinion. The MAIN focus they should have right now, is EDUCATION and INDUSTRY. That'll setup a moderate base for people to learn new things, understand and expand their horizons and be able to communicate in a 'civil' manner. When you go to a Madrassa or a Mandar based school, you may learn the language to worship....but you'll be rigid with your imagination and communication. In fact, too focused on religion in a way that you become a 'loner', you might flip and move towards being harsh with your feelings, reality and religion. Thus, the forceful fundamental views that your mind justifies as 'God's Order' vs. common sense based 'this isn't right'. Education helps all that. It gives you different avenues to keep your life busy, have goals in life, a better financial future for you and your kids (the biggest stress for many), etc, etc. The feeling of well being backed up by education overtakes the strong feelings and views and softens it. Unfortunately, the Muslim world's been behind in education. The amount of scholars they produce (PHD's , Researchers, etc) is a bare minimum and even the majority of the capable comes from the ones who went to the West. Muslim counties have oil and so many things. College education should be a must and potentially free or cheaper for everyone. Nations need to take a stance on getting education, not just follow silly politicians with crazy money making agendas for themselves!!! So wake up my friends. It is 2013!!! Help guide children and adults you know and give them the idea of education if you know anyone without it. Light spreads fast and you reading this, may be the one to spread it

I typed something racist on the internet along the lines of Jews vs Muslims etc purposely and came across this:

o In USA alone, 5,758 universities
o In India alone, 8,407 universities
o Not one university in the entire Islamic World features in the Top 500
Ranking Universities of the World
o Literacy in the Christian World 90%
o Literacy in the Muslim World 40%
o 15 Christian majority-countries, literacy rate 100%
o Muslim majority – countries , None
o 98% in Christian countries completed primary
o Only 50% in Muslim countries completed primary.
o 40% in Christian countries attended university
o In Muslim countries a dismal 2% attended..
o Muslim majority countries have 230 scientists per one million Muslims
o The USA has 5000 per million
o The Christian world 1000 technicians per million.
o Entire Arab World only 50 technicians per million.
o Muslim World spends on research/developmen t 0.2% of GDP
o Christian World spends 5 % of GDP

So basically what we are seeing is of our own making. Muslims are beggars and will forever be dominated by the west. In this faujhistorian is right. We should look more critically at what it is that we have done that is useful to the world at large.

 

[Wright]

I typed something racist on the internet along the lines of Jews vs Muslims etc purposely and came across this:

o In USA alone, 5,758 universities
o In India alone, 8,407 universities
o Not one university in the entire Islamic World features in the Top 500
Ranking Universities of the World
o Literacy in the Christian World 90%
o Literacy in the Muslim World 40%
o 15 Christian majority-countries, literacy rate 100%
o Muslim majority – countries , None
o 98% in Christian countries completed primary
o Only 50% in Muslim countries completed primary.
o 40% in Christian countries attended university
o In Muslim countries a dismal 2% attended..
o Muslim majority countries have 230 scientists per one million Muslims
o The USA has 5000 per million
o The Christian world 1000 technicians per million.
o Entire Arab World only 50 technicians per million.
o Muslim World spends on research/developmen t 0.2% of GDP
o Christian World spends 5 % of GDP

So basically what we are seeing is of our own making. Muslims are beggars and will forever be dominated by the west. In this faujhistorian is right. We should look more critically at what it is that we have done that is useful to the world at large.

Your inclusion of Arabs is wrongly making the figures look better. The Gulf Arabs are on par with the developed world in many aspects. Its Pakistan, Bengladesh, Somalia that lower the statistics.

I could wager most of the muslim R&D spending is done by the Gulf Arab and perhaps Iran.

 

[haviZsultan]

Your inclusion of Arabs is wrongly making the figures look better. The Gulf Arabs are on par with the developed world in many aspects. Its Pakistan, Bengladesh, Somalia that lower the statistics.

I could wager most of the muslim R&D spending is done by the Gulf Arab and perhaps Iran.

In research field arabs are behind other Muslim nations. Where I found this the purpose was specifically to show that Muslims are behind so they did not include some other nations that had better ratios. It is still far behind the west. Furthermore the west is referred to as Christian which is not true. Other than a number of neo-cons who do not recognize how incorrect their policies have been- especially foreign policy most westerners are secular and try hard not to look down their noses at others. I don't know which camp you belong to.

Btw Pakistan has a .46% (of course still very low) and Iran .79%. Malaysia and Brunei may have the highest but I tried to find figures on the net but failed.

 

[FaujHistorian]

......
o Literacy in the Christian World 90%
o Literacy in the Muslim World 40%
.........

So basically what we are seeing is of our own making. Muslims are beggars and will forever be dominated by the west. In this faujhistorian is right. We should look more critically at what it is that we have done that is useful to the world at large.

Thanks for a adding my name in the "acceptable" commentators. Thank you.



Coming back to the topic,


With due respect, even though statistics "sound" right, they are misleading because they take only one control variable aka religion and build an argument.

However in human development, there are multiple "control" variables that drive progress and prosperity.

One such control variable predates Christianity, and definitely Islam.

Islam is just 1400+ years old
while Christianity is 2000+ yeas old

Still these periods are small slice of human history.

So if Islam or Christianity are not the control variables or at least not the main one, then you may ask, what is (or what are)?


Well my friend the biggest control variable is "local culture".

If the culture is enlightened, the region progresses.

If the culture is primitive, tribal, the region goes down the toilet.


If you try to make similar observations, you will see the following


1. African and South American regions are relatively tribal, so they are hell holes of poverty even when they are Christians

2. BIMARU states in India are relatively tribal, so they are hell holes of poverty and backwardness even when they are Hindus/Indians


the same thing is true about Muslim dominated regions.


Regions that are more tribal, are backwards. The regions that are relatively civilized are progressing.

Afghanistan and Somalia and Yemen etc. are all 99% tribal and thus they are backwards $hit holes.

Iran, Malaysia, Turkey are relatively less tribal, so the are much better on development indices.

Gulf Arabs have tried to get rid of tribal Beduin culture, so they are progressing, but many other Arab countries have failed to do so and that's why they are doing badly on development indices.


BDesh has tried very hard to rid itself from tribal culture, so they are progressing better.


Pakistan was on path to development and prosperity back in 60s, and then Arabn and Irani And Afghanistani inspired barbarism, and tribalism came over us, and we started our steap slide down the hell hole of lawlessness and poverty and other tribal diseases.


So I hope by reviewing these examples, you all can see that triablism takes you down, while civilized behavior improves your lot.

What happened in the last 40 years is that Islam has been hijacked by tribal Mullahs and Ayatullahs, and thus anyone following such regressive- Islam (which in reality is barbaric tribalism) is on path of death and destruction.


Therefore please focus on culture and not religion. And we all will figure how to pull up 200 million strong massive and HUGE country like Pakistan, and put it on path of progress and development.



peace

 

[FaujHistorian]

Mr you are giving wrong History Mr Arabs when remain attached to Islam they were progressing they gave lot of modern sciences to world and west including chemistry surgery Algebra Geography medicine and other things Sir but slowly they got involved in all the evils which Islam prohibited and we start loosing the ground and end point was world war two and in modern saudi arabi somethings are of Islam but not full so first read Islam before coming up with crap

OK. If Arabs+Islam was a winning combo as per your assertion, then explain

Why

the center of Islam Makkah Medina has see ZERO science and algebra and chemistry for the last 1400 years.


Please.

 

[Zarvan]

OK. If Arabs+Islam was a winning combo as per your assertion, then explain

Why

the center of Islam Makkah Medina has see ZERO science and algebra and chemistry for the last 1400 years.


Please.

Sir this dumbest questions shows you capacity Sir Muslims don't live in Makkah and Madinah only and that place was mostly used for religious scineces but Arabs over all progressed a lot in sciences and after HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW Islam and next 600 years it was Muslims who were leading the knowledge of science sir no other nation than after that as we started turning away from Islam got involved in evils of singing dancing some also alcohal and many other evils we started becoming weaker and final blow came in World WAR 2 but touts of Kufr are to obsessed with their master USA **** that is why they can't other things

 

[Audio]

Turkey

Turkey: Creationists Want to Airbrush Darwin Out of Evolutionary Picture

challenge some of Darwin’s core concepts

The molecules and everything cannot randomly come together. … This theory disturbs me so much!

These are not random things; a creator had to put all these things in order

Critics believe that Turkey’s governing Justice and Development Party (AKP), which has Islamist roots, was the real organizational force behind the meeting

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan declared that "all children will be brought up as good Muslims."

I find the last one hilarious. They gonna be good Muslims which won't know anything. Best of luck to secular Turks.

 

[Viper0011.]

Your inclusion of Arabs is wrongly making the figures look better. The Gulf Arabs are on par with the developed world in many aspects. Its Pakistan, Bengladesh, Somalia that lower the statistics.

I could wager most of the muslim R&D spending is done by the Gulf Arab and perhaps Iran.

I disagree with that. Let's take a look at the Arab world....give me top ten innovations that came out of Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc, etc????? Yes, Arabs have a ton of money but from a needle to a 747 jet, everything is imported. There is bare minimum that they manufacture. There's been focus on that lately (Specially Saudi Arabia focusing on creating Industrial Complexes for foreign businesses due to almost no cost of oil and gas) and similarly, some countries making their own licensed vehicles and basic tech. But, nothing important or 'significant' comes out of that region. Interesting part is, the Muslim countries overall produce roughly about 60% of World's RAW materials (like raw Oil, Gas, Minerals, Petroleum products) BUT they aren't the ones making real profit out of it. It's the west that refines the RAW material, uses technology and other engineering protocols to turn the basic material into actual Products and makes the real big margin on that. So that tells you what's going on.
In fact, from an R&D's standpoint, now there is some activity there. Turkey and Pakistan have been one the largest Military R&D houses (even with Pakistan's poor economic situation). Malaysia and Indonesia have been focusing on Semi Conductor, Chip-set / Electronics manufacturing (which is now the key in everything, including a bulb, to your car's brakes, sensors, building homes to jets). I don't think any Arab country comes close to Malaysia when it comes to electronics and microprocessor based engineering. But outside of these few countries.....the rest is just out there doing nothing.

The real issue that you guys face today is this: where do you want to see yourselves in next 10 - 50 years?? and how can you leverage the US and help that it can provide? In many Islamic countries, the US is seen as the mother of all problems (even with ALL of its generous outpouring of billions of $$ to help with different projects globally, specifically in the Muslim world). But 'we hate America' rant doesn't stop.
In Muslim world, a common man believes that their downfall or their problems are all caused by the US. BUT, you fail to understand that your rulers or kings or presidents, or governments are corrupt. They don't want to build top line universities for their people, they don't want to provide significant benefits to people, allow them towards modern society, some of them even use the religious imaams to spread the wrong version of the religion to control the population. But if you connect with the US like any other, see India, Israel, China, Turkey, Malaysia, etc, you'll get great economic and educational benefits out of the US. For that, the Islamic world needs tolerance, honest leadership and education. ALL that, if your government's responsibility. Talent needs grooming, not suppression!! When you groom your youth to be prosper in life, more tolerant and modern......that's what would then create educated, well balanced, modern and economically strong nations.

 

[muse]

Well Ok, blame US. But lets look at few things.

1. When Saddam was using chemical weapons on Iran and his own people, no one said anything. Of course Security Council kept silent but why rest of the nations were silent ?

2. When Taliban was oppressing Afghan people, why other nations remained silent ?

3. When Muslims were murdered in Genocide, wasn't it US who came to rescue in Central Europe ?

4. When Rohingya Muslims were persecuted, only Turkey helped them, Obama told Myanmar its enough. Where were other nations ?

5. All cry for Palestinians, what other nations did for them except giving them weapons ?

6. When US helped to counter Soviet Forces and ensured freedom of Afghanistan and also of Pakistan, why you guys considered them as your allies ?

I can go on and on, I admit US has killed more innocent civilians in its War against Terror. but does anyone see that why other countries allowed Terrorism to flourish at the first place. Wasn't it Taliban who gave asylum to Osama ? If it wasn't for support to terrorists by many nations and Taliban, US won't have attacked Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan at the first place.

Terrorist elements were nurtured by other countries too and Mujhaheedins were raise by US too, but US paid the price and waged War against Terror, now when these terrorists came back to bite your a$$, you all blame US for that.

US is among those nations whose govt. and people give billions as Humanitarian aid for combating various ills. Bill Gates gave millions to India to combat AIDS (well the reason is considered different).

I know US has killed many people but why other countries fail to see at their own faults. Didn't you supported extremists, terrorist elements to flourish on your own soil and backyard to use them as proxies ?

Don't blame US alone. All are responsible. Get over with your Victim Mentality. Your hands are colored Red with blood of all these innocent people. We Indians accepted what we got when LTTE backfired at us. We agree our govt. oppressed people that led to internal insurgencies.

Isn't US looking out for its national interest, same way you looked at yours ?

Good Taliban, bad Taliban, haven't we learned the lessons from the past.

Lets become self-critical rather than creating one Boogeyman to run away from taking responsibility of death of millions of people.

KRAIT:

This is an excellent post but also a surprising post:

You say the world was silent when Saddam was using chemical weapons - you choose not mention that it was US and the Wahabi who got Saddam to attack Iran in the first place? You also forget the search for the mythical WMD, was the world silent then as well and how did that play ?

Talib were never oppressing "the Afghan people" they most certainly were oppressive to the Hazara - And you will note that only three countries recognized the Talib regime, Pakistan, SA and UAE, other countries, particularly Muslim majority countries withheld recognition.

Do some research, in particular how and why Pakistan issued passports to thousands of "Burmese" in SA.

Krait, it's important to be conscious of a variety of narratives - in the US and among those now think the sun rises in the US, it has become de rigeur that all negatives accrue to Muslims and positives to US - you highlight what you now call terrorists, such as the evil Haqqani

To your point about victim mentality and being self critical, should this not be directed at our US friends?? Or will differently rules continue to apply to them (being "exceptional" and all that?)

 

[KRAIT]

@muse

I know sir that when Iraq attacked Iran and even used Chemical weapons on its own people, US was behind them. Even they didn't supply the weapons Iran paid before hand before Islamic revolution. They wanted to remove Ayatollah Khomenie. He was against their NATIONAL Interest.

Also, they raise Taliban and left when the region, their NATIONAL Interest was saved. And Taliban was supported by whom later for their own national interest ? A nation formed on Islam.

Pakistan issued passports but didn't raise the issue at UN like it raised for Kashmiri Muslims, organize a collective action against Myanmar , KSA didn't. As there was no National Interest of these nations.

Again my point is National Interest. US do it for its Interest. So does other nations.

Sir, do you know China gives support to oppressive regimes in Africa for oil and other resources and ignores Human Rights Violation. National interest again.

China gives support to North Korea where people are eating their own children and digging graves for dead bodies. Isn't it doing it for protecting its National Interest.

In Syria, 78 people are found yesterday with their hands tied back, China and Russia not doing anything and not allowing West to intervene. For its National Interest.

Sir, I did my research and My Point is while single out US. Is it only US doing so ?

Thing is people only blame US for everything, but its the US who also had done for many oppressed people and highest amount of charity.

I don't like US for many things. I condemn what they did in Iraq and what happened in Iraq.

As for Conscious, hope you can imagine my obvious point I would have made but don't want to.

Conclusion - Every nation tries to protect its National Interest.

 

[muse]

Pursuit of national interest is understood by all - those countries that can marshal and command greater resources can better or more successfully pursue those interests -- You know, I know you do, the observation that "the US globalized the world, but not itself" -- see, the pursuit of interests of the scope of those pursued by the, must have the "buy in" of a number of other countries, in particular, the buy in of populations most effected by it -- Anything controversial yet?? Ok, lets move on

Don't take my word for it, read McCrystal and see what he says hampers US policy - if it not the perception of US and US policies, then I'll eat a bug or something -- See, this buy in we are talking about, it's a direct result of Globalization and the social network revolution and above all, of the emergence of diverse narratives -- look even here, we will quote Express and Dawn and in my case Hindu, far more than NYT - Why? What is going on?

Our US friends, need to some introspection and a self critical approach, they are of course welcome to keep this "they hate us" notion, but of course that is not producing results that further US interests - unless US interests are to isolate the US?????

When you say, lets not just blame he US, yes, that's not just reasonable, it' absolutely right. This thread is what? Dear Americans we don't hate your Freedoms" -- think about that title, some idiot actually made it a national narrative that entire peoples are ticked off at them because they hate "freedoms"????? Then they got work, turning US the US into a torturer, the US unaccountable dark sites, the US!!

 

[FaujHistorian]

......
In Muslim world, a common man believes that their downfall or their problems are all caused by the US......

My dear dear poster.

I agree with the overall jist of your post. Who can disagree in their right mind anyways?

Just wanted to add a couple of comments:

1. Common man in pretty much the whole of South America believes that the source of all their problems is the "Yankee" or the USA. And they are not Muslim in any way.

So religion could not be the sole basis of anti-USA hatred.

Instead the root of this hatred lies with "Marxism".

Yes Marxism binds many from different religions like Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Bhudists, Shintuists or animists in a common anti-USA stance.

Marxism is what brings Hugo Chavez and Ahmedenijat together even when they profess Catholicism and Shia-ism respectively.


2. There is no Muslim world. Muslims do not live on another planet that we call that backward planet as "Muslim world". We may use the term "Muslim countries" or "Muslim dominated region", but for cryin out loud, do not spread the false terms like Muslim world, because it gives a terrible notion of lumping every Abdullah, Zayed, and Bakar who have nothing in common accept that many in those countries profess to a religion.

People in the West are secular in their view, and that has brought immense benefits for them.

Then why the same Western intellectuals turn around and use

absolutely false religious terms such as "Muslim world". it just boggles my mind. Just makes me wonder why?


Thank you.


p.s. This is no way a critique of your post, rather an "addendum" and clarifications.

 

[arbit]

Dear Americans We DON'T hate your "Freedoms", we hate the "freedom" OFF life you inflict on others.

Sir, not to be frivolous but by the time i logged on to this thread it was discussed to death by our own ubiquitious @KRAIT and other informed members. So i will refrain from posting the usual arguments.

By the way, you do realize that if cameras were available earlier when islamic plunderers were doing what they do best the result would have been much more disturbing than what you have posted above.
Mongols would have not fared better either.
Even the documented proofs of japanese invasion of china and the treatment meted out to chinese is quite grim ( and thats an understatement)

The fact remains where ever there are combatants and killing is done as a matter of duty by motivated men it eliminates the compunctions associated with the act and the result is blatant disregard of human life. Which is what you have tried to portray and is probably the point of your post. But it does nothing else than to foster needless hatred against USA whch has already harmed your country enough.

Lastly if you would look closer you will find worse examples of islamists beheading innocents even your own soldiers and posting videos online, so exactly what was the point of your starting a troll thread is beyond me.
Perhaps one of the others can start a thread wth a similar title. " Dear Muslims, we don't hate your religion" . Would like to watch the trollfest on that one.

No offence intended above.