DCN/Amaris Can Still Win PN...for Frigates.

[MenOfHonor]

French DCNS Mistral Class LHD (Force Projection/Amphibious Assault/Command and Control Ship)

Mistral has the capability to be use as a helicopter carrier with its 6 helicopter landing spots and the capacity to accomodate 16 heavy or 35 light helicopters. The flight deck of each ship is approximately 6,400 square metres (69,000 sq ft).

The Mistral is also an efficient commandement and control center. with a 850-square-metre (9,100 sq ft) command centre which can host up to 150 personnel. Information from the ship's sensors is centralised in the SENIT system (Système d’Exploitation Navale des Informations Tactiques, "System for Naval Usage of Tactical Information"), a derivative of the US Navy's Naval Tactical Data System (NTDS). SENIT 9 is based around Thales' tri-dimensional MRR3D-NG Multi Role Radar, which operations on the C band and incorporates IFF capabilities. SENIT 9 also be connected to NATO data exchange formats through Link 11, Link 16 and Link 22.

As of 2008, the two Mistral class ships were armed with two Simbad launchers for Mistral missiles, two Brenda Mauser 30 mm/70 guns, and four 12.7 mm M2-HB Browning machine guns.

With its powerful communications system, its fully redundant equipment and excellent maneuvering capabilities, it plays a pivotal role in the deployment of peacekeepers, in deterrence or the projection of naval power. Mistral class ships can accommodate up to 450 soldiers, although this can be doubled for short-term deployments. The 2,650-square-metre (28,500 sq ft) vehicle hangar can carry a 40-strong Leclerc tank battalion, or a 13-strong Leclerc tank company and 46 other vehicles. By comparison, Foudre class ships can carry up to 100 vehicles, including 22 AMX-30 tanks in the significantly smaller 1,000-square-metre (11,000 sq ft) deck. The 885-square-metre (9,530 sq ft) well deck can accommodate four landing craft. The ships are capable of operating two LCAC hovercraft, and although the French Navy appears to have no intention of purchasing any LCACs, this capability improves the class' ability to interoperate with the United States Marine Corps and the Royal Navy. The LCACs can make landfall on 70% of the coastlines of the world; conventional landing craft can only make landfall on 30%, as they are limited to sand beaches or swamps. The DGA is contemplating modernisation of the landing craft fleet with 59-tonne landing crafts (EDA, Engins de débarquement amphibies).

Mistral can also be used as a Hospital ship. Each ship carries a NATO Role 3 medical facility, comparable to the hospital of a 25,000-inhabitant city. Any pathology can be treated aboard, including complex issues like neurosurgery, though the use of a SYRACUSE-based telemedicine system.

The hospital provides 20 rooms. There are two surgery blocks with 7 intensive care beds, and a radiology room fitted with a scanner. Capacity is 69 beds, including 50 for intensive care, but it can be extended to 120 beds by installing a mobile medical facility in the helicopter hangar.

Type:landing platform helicopter
Displacement:16,500 tons (empty)
21,300 tons (full load)
32,300 tons (with ballasts)
Length:199 metres (650 ft)
Beam:32 metres (100 ft)
Draught:6.3 metres (21 ft)
Installed power:3 Wärtsilä diesels-alternators 16 V32 (6,2 MW) + 1 Wärtsilä Vasaa auxiliary diesel-alternator 18V200 (3 MW)
Propulsion:2 Mermaïd electric motors (2 × 7 MW), 2 5-bladed propellers
Speed:18.8 knots (35 km/h)
Range:10,800 kilometres (5,800 nmi) at 18 knots (33 km/h)
19,800 kilometres (10,700 nmi) at 15 knots (28 km/h)
Boats and landing craft carried:4 CTM (chaland de transport de matériel)
alternatively, 2 LCAC (Landing Craft, Air Cushion)
Capacity:59 vehicles (including 13 Leclerc tanks) or a 40-strong Leclerc tank battalion
Troops:900 (short duration)
450 (long durations)
150 (serving as operational headquaters)
Complement:20 officers, 80 petty officers, 60 quarter-masters
Sensors and processing systems:DRBN-38A Decca Bridgemaster E250 navigation radar
MRR3D-NG air/surface sentry radar
2 optronic fire control systems
Armament:2 x Simbad systems
2 x 30 mm Breda-Mauser guns
4 x 12.7 mm M2-HB Browning machine guns
Aircraft carried:16 heavy or 35 light helicopters
Aviation facilities:6 helicopter landing spots

Export

Since 1997, and particularly since the Euronaval 2007, the Mistral type has been promoted for export. The "BPC family" comprises the BPC 140 (13,500 tonnes), the BPC 160 (16,700 tonnes) and the BPC 250 (24,542 tonnes, 214.5 metres (704 ft) long). The BPC 250 was the design from which the final Mistral class design was derived: the reduction in length and other modifications were a price-saving exercise.

According to the DGA, the South African Navy, the Deutsche Marine, the Canadian Forces Maritime Command, the Royal Malaysian Navy, and the Swedish Navy might show an interest in the ships. The Indian Navy has also expressed interest in the design of the Mistral type. Brazil and Turkey could in time consider purchasing BPCs. Algeria is also considering the purchase of two BPCs.

PN should atleast aquire 1 FREMM multi purpose as a command ship...

 

[Super Falcon]

well navy is taking so much time i dont know what is the probleum with them

 

[MZUBAIR]

F-22 is already purchased, I dont think PN will go for that

 

[Super Falcon]

oh so buy 4 ships wont be enough sir we are less in ships indian 8 ships for our one ship no match pn for IN

 

[Quwa]

I posted this thread with regards to the DCN FM400 medium-displacement (3500~4000ton) multi-mission frigate. It was designed specifically for the export-market, and will not be as costly as the FREMM. Nonetheless, FM 400 can potentially come with a robust package, including Exocet MM40, Aster 15 SAAM, MU-90, etc...all this for a rate of $350~400mn per boat I'd expect.

It would've likely been an attractive idea a couple years back, but now Pakistan has other options in China (Type-054A), Turkey (TF-100) and Germany (MEKO Delta). Though its clear that Chinese and Turkish builders will be much preferred over the French and Germans for frigates. For example, Pakistan signed an MoU/accord with Turkey over naval research-development and production, as well as reportedly committed itself to the MILGEM corvette. We also know about the F-22P program with China, so its clear that investment is being put into acquiring Chinese and Turkish shipbuilding technology.

PN needs a medium-displacement multi-mission frigate to form the mainstay of its fleet. I'd have them start investing in the Turkish TF-100 and related weapon-systems (such as VL SAM of 25~30km; lightweight ASW torpedo; long-range AShM; PDMS). Granted the TF-100 may not be available until 2025~2030 or so, but we have more immediate requirements to meet. For example, by up-shifting the frigate requirement for another 10 or 15 years, we can sanction more funding for SSKs - notably the U-214 and Andrasta mini-SSK.

We can gradually build "up-wards" by strengthening coastal defence capability through additional stealthy FACs (such as MRTP-33), perhaps acquire some larger variants similar to Visby or OPVs. Then focus on corvettes such as the MILGEM...and once the basic brown and green water capabilities are firm, we can begin inducting a 3000~3500 general frigate (TF-100) and heavier AAW FFG...as well as further increase SSK fleet. Final aspect would be to acquire more projective or blue water assets such as LST, LPDs, a hospital ship, and maybe SSGN.

 

[fatman17]

oh so buy 4 ships wont be enough sir we are less in ships indian 8 ships for our one ship no match pn for IN

SF, understand one thing, we can not match india ship for ship, a/c for a/c and tank for tank.

 

[IndianRobo]

SF, understand one thing, we can not match india ship for ship, a/c for a/c and tank for tank.

Sir, You can Match It for sure, If Pakistan navy Encourages Indigenous Ship Building In Pakistan.... And Pakistan Must Look into Building Destroyers , If Iam not Wrong Pakistan Navy does not Operate Destroyers is it?

 

[Patriot]

SF, understand one thing, we can not match india ship for ship, a/c for a/c and tank for tank.

I think these acquisitions will be effected now due to Floods.As our F16 procurement was also hit due to Earthquake.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

8 Upgraded and modified F-22Ps are comming with a displacement of 3600 Tons or more!

I dont think PN will invest in more frigs also due to the floods!

Mark ?

 

[Quwa]

8 Upgraded and modified F-22Ps are comming with a displacement of 3600 Tons or more!

I dont think PN will invest in more frigs also due to the floods!

Mark ?

My understanding is that we're still at 4 F-22P.

As for the floods...true...but I was referring to frigates that would not be acquired for at least another 10-15 years from now, if not longer. Given the flood disaster and post-disaster recovery needs, we won't have a lot to work with in the medium-term. Unless we implement a wide-scale wealth taxation net on the agricultural, industrial & political elites - which would require a very brave government & stern bureaucracy. Realistically, our best bet is foreign aid...unfortunately...

I think, instead of indefinitely postponing frigate acquisitions, we should delay it and invest in small/medium increments over the next decade towards an in-development project. Ideally, we could take a look at the TF-2000 and TF-100, and invest a bit into their development. We can also have our firms participate in the development phase by testing some of the subsystems; conduct studies on integrating suitable sensors, radar, weapons, etc, on PN ships; gradually transfer manufacturing technology to Pakistan, etc.

The hope is that by the time we have a tested design ready for production, we'd have the finances to produce enough of them. If not, we would already have taken a few important steps and induct them slowly anyways. In the end we'd have capable and modern platforms. That's the idea.

For the current short and medium term, we should probably invest in a good number of stealthy FACs such as MRTP-33; additional SSKs - both U214 and Andrasta; replace the Seaking and Alouette III helicopters; new auxiliary-support platforms, etc. This is more or less possible with even a tight budget. As a bridging measure PN can acquire a number of OHPs via EDA and upgrade them with ESSM...or perhaps lease a few ships from China.

On the other hand, it might be a good idea to acquire better air-lift capability in terms of helicopters. Maybe up to 12 CH-47s & 6~12 AW101 in navy/marines? Maybe consider the domestic manufacture of medium-lift utility helicopters (AW139 & 149 for a multiple range of uses, including army-transport, naval shipborne, medical evacuation, emergency relief, SAR, etc).

 

[HAIDER]

Mark we talk about brown water ,while our rival is striving for blue waters. Why we confined ourself in restriction. If the strike comes on us then our enemy has more room to relocated its battle ship, rather we be in defence posture ? .
Second, do you think our navel air fleet is good enough to counter blue water fleets ?, When our adversaries carries long range bombers.
Then only offensive fleet left for Pakistan is its submarine.
How you look on this whole scenario ?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

My understanding is that we're still at 4 F-22P.As for the floods...true...but I was referring to frigates that would not be acquired for at least another 10-15 years from now, if not longer. Given the flood disaster and post-disaster recovery needs, we won't have a lot to work with in the medium-term. Unless we implement a wide-scale wealth taxation net on the agricultural, industrial & political elites - which would require a very brave government & stern bureaucracy. Realistically, our best bet is foreign aid...unfortunately...

I think, instead of indefinitely postponing frigate acquisitions, we should delay it and invest in small/medium increments over the next decade towards an in-development project. Ideally, we could take a look at the TF-2000 and TF-100, and invest a bit into their development. We can also have our firms participate in the development phase by testing some of the subsystems; conduct studies on integrating suitable sensors, radar, weapons, etc, on PN ships; gradually transfer manufacturing technology to Pakistan, etc.

The hope is that by the time we have a tested design ready for production, we'd have the finances to produce enough of them. If not, we would already have taken a few important steps and induct them slowly anyways. In the end we'd have capable and modern platforms. That's the idea.

For the current short and medium term, we should probably invest in a good number of stealthy FACs such as MRTP-33; additional SSKs - both U214 and Andrasta; replace the Seaking and Alouette III helicopters; new auxiliary-support platforms, etc. This is more or less possible with even a tight budget. As a bridging measure PN can acquire a number of OHPs via EDA and upgrade them with ESSM...or perhaps lease a few ships from China.

On the other hand, it might be a good idea to acquire better air-lift capability in terms of helicopters. Maybe up to 12 CH-47s & 6~12 AW101 in navy/marines? Maybe consider the domestic manufacture of medium-lift utility helicopters (AW139 & 149 for a multiple range of uses, including army-transport, naval shipborne, medical evacuation, emergency relief, SAR, etc).

Sir i beg to differ!

Here is a thread about the 4 more advanced F-22P frigz tht makes the total strenght of F-22P to 8!
http://www.google.com.pk/url?q=http...IoADAA&usg=AFQjCNEBZENH5oDMxZYExRu9dIHIoue_IA
http://www.google.com.pk/url?q=http...IoAjAD&usg=AFQjCNFwmT869xOsruEBdyA-Y3r0G7332A

About FACs sir we already have MRTP-33 ?4 if im correct.

And we r already going for 500 ton indigenous FACs or a JV with china.

And the 7 sub deal is still stuck! wat the heck is gop n navy thinkin?
About OPH sir do we have the upgradation plan? i mean a list of stuff we will be upgrading them with?

And wishful thinkin about indegenous helis.... Id buy more Mi-17s they r cheap,carry good load and we r already operating them.
Rather then chinook which is prone to sanctions in future!

 

[Quwa]

Bro...if you recall major deals, they are often finalized in the presence of the MoD and/or chief of forces or high level official. The additional 4 F-22Ps have not been finalized as finalization has not occurred (at least not yet). Even with JF-17s, while PAF wants as many as 250, it only finalized 42~50 thus far...these reports are generally soft until officially signed.

Secondly, we need more MRTP-33s and the 500 ton FAC are not stealthy...they're based on more patrol-oriented designs. And we will definitely see more Mi-17/171s, but we should consider a lighter utility type such as AW139 and later AW149. These lighter types have their advantages and we should push for a standardized platform across all services, military & civil. As for CH-47, the PA already considered it after the 2005 Earthquake, and after this, I think it'll make its acquisition a priority. In addition to contingency and emergency uses, it can form an actual airborne division. Something like the AW101 can take up a similar role in the PN and Marines...i.e. naval airborne.

Mark we talk about brown water ,while our rival is striving for blue waters. Why we confined ourself in restriction. If the strike comes on us then our enemy has more room to relocated its battle ship, rather we be in defence posture ? .
Second, do you think our navel air fleet is good enough to counter blue water fleets ?, When our adversaries carries long range bombers.
Then only offensive fleet left for Pakistan is its submarine.
How you look on this whole scenario ?

We didn't confine ourselves intentionally, its just how things turned out due to an unfortunate series of political and economic events. At this point, our best option may be a gradual build-up from a robust brown water (short-term) to effective green water (10~12 years from now) to starting blue-water/projective expansion (starting 15 or so years from now). In the mean time, we should build up our ability to defend coasts and keep enemy surface ships off our shores, a mix of stealthy FACs, SSKs, and small corvettes (similar to Visby) as well as good air power should be sufficient. As long as our condition is dissimilar to that of say Iraq we should be fine. We can also lease a few frigates from China or upgrade used OHPs to bridge certain gaps (such as AAD), but true change in the form of long-range AAW, proper frigate fleet, larger & well-supported SSK fleet and even SSGN, LPD, LSTs, etc, are all long-long term objectives.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I have no doubt we would be getting 4 more frigz look at the Navy chiefs statements reguarding expanding the F-22P fleet n making them advanced or the possibility of calling the F-23s.

And yes ur right Chinook was on Pak armys list but i would advise em to go the other way! why dont we start our own heli programe?

 

[Sinnerman108]

I posted this thread with regards to the DCN FM400 medium-displacement (3500~4000ton) multi-mission frigate. It was designed specifically for the export-market, and will not be as costly as the FREMM. Nonetheless, FM 400 can potentially come with a robust package, including Exocet MM40, Aster 15 SAAM, MU-90, etc...all this for a rate of $350~400mn per boat I'd expect.

It would've likely been an attractive idea a couple years back, but now Pakistan has other options in China (Type-054A), Turkey (TF-100) and Germany (MEKO Delta). Though its clear that Chinese and Turkish builders will be much preferred over the French and Germans for frigates. For example, Pakistan signed an MoU/accord with Turkey over naval research-development and production, as well as reportedly committed itself to the MILGEM corvette. We also know about the F-22P program with China, so its clear that investment is being put into acquiring Chinese and Turkish shipbuilding technology.

PN needs a medium-displacement multi-mission frigate to form the mainstay of its fleet. I'd have them start investing in the Turkish TF-100 and related weapon-systems (such as VL SAM of 25~30km; lightweight ASW torpedo; long-range AShM; PDMS). Granted the TF-100 may not be available until 2025~2030 or so, but we have more immediate requirements to meet. For example, by up-shifting the frigate requirement for another 10 or 15 years, we can sanction more funding for SSKs - notably the U-214 and Andrasta mini-SSK.

We can gradually build "up-wards" by strengthening coastal defence capability through additional stealthy FACs (such as MRTP-33), perhaps acquire some larger variants similar to Visby or OPVs. Then focus on corvettes such as the MILGEM...and once the basic brown and green water capabilities are firm, we can begin inducting a 3000~3500 general frigate (TF-100) and heavier AAW FFG...as well as further increase SSK fleet. Final aspect would be to acquire more projective or blue water assets such as LST, LPDs, a hospital ship, and maybe SSGN.

Mark, I do not agree with the subject of the thread
there is no "MAY win the deal"
as long as Sir Zardari is here,please change it to most probably.

On a serious note, since we already have an MoU with Turkey; how cool will it be
to buy German, and build these vessels jointly. Pak + Germany + Turkey.