Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[MZUBAIR]

MRCA first post was on 11-23-2005, 10:46 AM.

Its 23rd April 2010..............After almost 5 years.....still not confident wt to buy

 

[nakodo]

MRCA first post was on 11-23-2005, 10:46 AM.

Its 23rd April 2010..............After almost 5 years.....still not confident wt to buy

it is only slightly better than no choice in wt to buy, but it may be difficult to comprehend for people that run their AF like a charity. Donate pliss.

 

[deepakaviator]

MRCA first post was on 11-23-2005, 10:46 AM.

Its 23rd April 2010..............After almost 5 years.....still not confident wt to buy

It's a deal of 200 odd 4.5 generation fighters... so plz refrain...

 

[KEETARP]

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Gripen Nervous About Ferrying Demo Aircraft To India, But Confident Of Repeat Performance In MMRCA Trials

The Indian Air Force evaluation team that was in Europe for phase-3 flight evaluation trials (FETs) of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen Demo was stranded on the continent by the Icelandic ash cloud. Not sure if they're back yet, but they had a fantastic time in Linkoping, Sweden, during the first week of this month when a member of the IAF team became the first non-Swedish pilot to fly the Gripen Demo from the front cockpit. The team had eight flights in the aicraft, and will fly it again next month. The Gripen Demo will touch down in Jamnagar on May 17, after which the IAF will decide the sequence of trials the airplane will be put through.

While the Gripen people are still basking in the rumours and feedback about how well their pair of Gripen-Ds performed during the India phase of the evaluations, the team is palpably nervous about ferrying the Gripen Demo to India. Met up with Gripen's MMRCA campaign head Eddy de la Motte a couple of days ago .He told me, "While we are very confident that the Demo will perform perfectly in what is demanded of it, we hope there are no problems in bringing it to India. We will be hopping it across from Sweden to India. We don't foresee any problems, but it is after all a prototype, and we can't be too careful." The IAF is likely to put the Gripen Demo through the full gamut of trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh, though probably not in that order. In many ways, evaluating the Gripen Demo will be like testing an entirely different airplane, substantively different as it is from the original that flew in India last month.

The first down-select in the MMRCA is scheduled to take place by October this year.

 

[ramu]

Yeh baby ... Gripen it will be ... atleast that is what I hope ...

 

[jha]

Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability



Jane's has reported that Sweden is accelerating plans to fully integrate the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) on the Gripen. Rapid availability of the Meteor is seen as a key capability for export customers. Swedish programme sources have told Jane's that a lot of development work has already been completed with Gripen and that the missile is now functional on the Swedish fighter, with a 'go to war' capability available today.

Meteor is a European collaborative programme between the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Germany. The missile is planned to be the primary BVR air-to-air missile for all the modern European fighter aircraft; Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale.

Saab became involved in the Meteor programme as early as 2003, when Saab Bofors Dynamics was awarded a contract to develop and produce the prototype of the missile. The same year, Saab Aerosystems was awarded a contract for the integration of Meteor on the Gripen. Saab therefore plays a key and prominent role within the Meteor programme.

Gripen is the first and so far only fighter aircraft which has air-launched the Meteor missile. The first Air Launched Demonstration firing took place in 2006.

While the UK is leading the Meteor development programme, all airborne test work to date has used Swedish assets because of a series of delays with other intended test platforms, chiefly the Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has now acknowledged a previously unreported Meteor firing that took place in 2009. An MoD statement to Jane's said the test "was was conducted on 3 June 2009 from a Gripen aircraft against a Mirach subscale target at the Hebrides range. This firing successfully tested the ability of the missile to acquire and track a target at low altitude with a sea clutter background. This was the first trial using the pre-production standard of hardware".

To date six Meteor firings have been acknowledged since May 2006 - all undertaken by Saab Gripens. By the end of 2009 Meteor form-and-fit checks had been made with the Tornado and by February 2010 captive carriage tests with dummy missiles were being flown.

In March 2010 QinetiQ's primary Tornado testbed (ZE203) completed Meteor ejection release trials to prove safe separation with dummy missiles. The first launch of a live missile is expected as early as May.
Meanwhile, Sweden is pressing ahead with its Meteor integration plans and Saab looks set to be the first aircraft manufacturer with a functional, available Meteor capability. Swedish programme officials have told Jane's that the June 2009 guided firing proved a workable integration of the missile with the Gripen is now "in place and more or less operational".

To deliver a complete integration requires further envelope clearance on Gripen's pylon Nos 2 and 3, plus further refinement to radar modes, mission software and cockpit displays. Ideally, this work would be aligned with the Gripen's regular software update schedule and would appear as part of the coming E20 edition. The current E19 edition is fully compatible with the Meteor.

Meteor is claimed to have between three and six times the kinematic performance of any current missile of its type. The firing was carried out from a Saab Gripen aircraft against a MQM-107B ‘Streaker’ high-subsonic subscale aerial target. The missile test firing concludes a series of development firings to prove the overall performance of the missile and its various subsystems in terms of guidance, propulsion, data link and fuse.

The key to Meteor’s outstanding performance is the rocket motor. For the first time a solid fuel ramjet is being used to propel a missile. Already proven in earlier test firings, the unique solid fuel throttleable ducted rocket gives Meteor the ability to maintain high speed all the way to the target aircraft, making evasion virtually pointless.

Approximately five further firings are planned in Sweden to complete the Gripen integration. Programme officials believe that this work could be underlining what has been achieved already. The report states that Swedish programme sources state that all basic requirements to have Meteor functional on Gripen have been met, including launchers, data linking, bus traffic, safe separation.

GRIPEN INDIA: Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability

 

[KEETARP]

Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability



Jane's has reported that Sweden is accelerating plans to fully integrate the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) on the Gripen. Rapid availability of the Meteor is seen as a key capability for export customers. Swedish programme sources have told Jane's that a lot of development work has already been completed with Gripen and that the missile is now functional on the Swedish fighter, with a 'go to war' capability available today.

Meteor is a European collaborative programme between the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Germany. The missile is planned to be the primary BVR air-to-air missile for all the modern European fighter aircraft; Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale.

Saab became involved in the Meteor programme as early as 2003, when Saab Bofors Dynamics was awarded a contract to develop and produce the prototype of the missile. The same year, Saab Aerosystems was awarded a contract for the integration of Meteor on the Gripen. Saab therefore plays a key and prominent role within the Meteor programme.

Gripen is the first and so far only fighter aircraft which has air-launched the Meteor missile. The first Air Launched Demonstration firing took place in 2006.

While the UK is leading the Meteor development programme, all airborne test work to date has used Swedish assets because of a series of delays with other intended test platforms, chiefly the Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has now acknowledged a previously unreported Meteor firing that took place in 2009. An MoD statement to Jane's said the test "was was conducted on 3 June 2009 from a Gripen aircraft against a Mirach subscale target at the Hebrides range. This firing successfully tested the ability of the missile to acquire and track a target at low altitude with a sea clutter background. This was the first trial using the pre-production standard of hardware".

To date six Meteor firings have been acknowledged since May 2006 - all undertaken by Saab Gripens. By the end of 2009 Meteor form-and-fit checks had been made with the Tornado and by February 2010 captive carriage tests with dummy missiles were being flown.

In March 2010 QinetiQ's primary Tornado testbed (ZE203) completed Meteor ejection release trials to prove safe separation with dummy missiles. The first launch of a live missile is expected as early as May.
Meanwhile, Sweden is pressing ahead with its Meteor integration plans and Saab looks set to be the first aircraft manufacturer with a functional, available Meteor capability. Swedish programme officials have told Jane's that the June 2009 guided firing proved a workable integration of the missile with the Gripen is now "in place and more or less operational".

To deliver a complete integration requires further envelope clearance on Gripen's pylon Nos 2 and 3, plus further refinement to radar modes, mission software and cockpit displays. Ideally, this work would be aligned with the Gripen's regular software update schedule and would appear as part of the coming E20 edition. The current E19 edition is fully compatible with the Meteor.

Meteor is claimed to have between three and six times the kinematic performance of any current missile of its type. The firing was carried out from a Saab Gripen aircraft against a MQM-107B ‘Streaker’ high-subsonic subscale aerial target. The missile test firing concludes a series of development firings to prove the overall performance of the missile and its various subsystems in terms of guidance, propulsion, data link and fuse.

The key to Meteor’s outstanding performance is the rocket motor. For the first time a solid fuel ramjet is being used to propel a missile. Already proven in earlier test firings, the unique solid fuel throttleable ducted rocket gives Meteor the ability to maintain high speed all the way to the target aircraft, making evasion virtually pointless.

Approximately five further firings are planned in Sweden to complete the Gripen integration. Programme officials believe that this work could be underlining what has been achieved already. The report states that Swedish programme sources state that all basic requirements to have Meteor functional on Gripen have been met, including launchers, data linking, bus traffic, safe separation.

GRIPEN INDIA: Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability

I hope IAF evaluation team when reaches Sweden after this volcano ash settles down as they are stranded in midway , get to fire METEOR on Gripen . That would be just the final impetus that would seal deal in favour of Swedes.

 

[KEETARP]

F16 Jets: To Buy or Not to Buy | OPEN Magazine

US SETTING THE PITCH FOR MMRCA BY OFFERING JETS VIA FMS TO INDIA DIRECTLY.

At $12 billion, this is the biggest defence deal in the world. Ranged against each other are six of the world’s best fighter aircraft—the Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F-18, Sweden’s Gripen, French Rafale and the European consortium EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon—as the Indian Air Force (IAF) closes in on choosing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft through a global tender. But the US, keen on altering the rules of the game, is pressuring India to forgo the tendering process and instead go in for a single-vendor deal under what it terms a ‘foreign military sale’ (FMS), leaving India to choose only between the F-16 and F-18.

It was in 2008, when bids were first submitted, that the US Defense Secretary Robert Gates had first written to India’s Ministry of Defence, suggesting such a course. Now Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, director of the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, has again written to the Ministry. Significantly, this is the first time that the US has responded to a global tender for an Indian defence deal. And its preference for the FMS route is more than obvious, unlike the Soviets earlier or Russians now, who, despite being India’s largest suppliers through its history, have never insisted on such strings attached.

An FMS would involve a government-to-government agreement on a contract without an open tender, which would ease the transfer of critical technologies, thus hastening the process. The flip side is that it is bound to raise expenses, which would obviate the entire rationale of a global tender which allows for open trials to meet the IAF’s requirements. Apart from restricting choices, such a deal would also let the US dictate a set of other terms, under a maintenance and usage clause, in contrast with the current scenario in which any supplier selected will have to meet terms of the tender as specified by India.

In his letter to the Ministry last month, Wieringa is said to have pitched hard for the 126-fighter deal—trials for which are in full swing, though delayed by a month. Four of the six aircraft in contention have completed their three-phase trials, while two are still undergoing them (likely to be done by the end of next month).

The Ministry has received letters from government representatives on behalf of other aircraft in the fray as well, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, preferring to adhere strictly to the transparency clause of the Defence Procurement Procedure.

Remember how the Comptroller and Auditor General (Cag) had raised the issue of US restrictions on offensive deployment of the landing platform dock ship USS Trenton, bought earlier by the Indian Navy? The Cag questioned India’s acquiescence to a US directive on inventory inspection of all articles transferred under the ‘end user monitoring’ clause, and the Left had slammed the Government for the clause’s figuring in the Trenton deal. Now the clause assumes heightened importance, given all the big ticket deals in the pipeline right now.

America’s end user monitoring mechanisms, which call for the regular physical inspection of military supplies by the US government, have been a sticking point in several Indo-US defence deals in the past as well. In June last year, it took many rounds of hard negotiation to sort out the monitoring of Boeing Business Jets procured by India for the use of the President and PM. The clause finally agreed upon by the National Security Advisor enables the US to inspect these VVIP aircraft once a year.

But this one-time agreement was not enough to sort out issues with monitoring in general. Vice Admiral Wieringa had played an important role last year when the mechanism had hit a roadblock; once a draft of the clause sent by Washington was rejected by the Ministry for infringing Indian sovereignty, he proposed that sample versions of text signed by the US with other countries be made available to South Block, for reference. Mutually agreed changes were made before the clause was finally signed by both countries last year during US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s visit to India.

On an average, India’s defence deals with Russia are worth an estimated $1.5 billion annually, and with Israel, about $1 billion. With the US, India has done defence business worth only $4 billion over the past eight years. But that figure could spike sharply upwards.

Guys , I am getting worried abt US twisting , i mean this FMS route will lurch MoD to seriously consider it + it would be easy for US to offer sophisticated tech . I mean this will ensure US as winner.
Secondly as shortlist date is coming , i am sure US will lure India more by offering Source codes and full Radar info and we will be trapped.
I have seen enough type of last minute sweetening done in BRAZIL , 50% discount + full TOT etc .
Just hope that shortlist is Fair and unbiased and without US influence .
Gripen my bet ,

 

[Mahakaya]

F16 Jets: To Buy or Not to Buy | OPEN Magazine

US SETTING THE PITCH FOR MMRCA BY OFFERING JETS VIA FMS TO INDIA DIRECTLY.

At $12 billion, this is the biggest defence deal in the world. Ranged against each other are six of the world’s best fighter aircraft—the Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F-18, Sweden’s Gripen, French Rafale and the European consortium EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon—as the Indian Air Force (IAF) closes in on choosing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft through a global tender. But the US, keen on altering the rules of the game, is pressuring India to forgo the tendering process and instead go in for a single-vendor deal under what it terms a ‘foreign military sale’ (FMS), leaving India to choose only between the F-16 and F-18.

It was in 2008, when bids were first submitted, that the US Defense Secretary Robert Gates had first written to India’s Ministry of Defence, suggesting such a course. Now Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, director of the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, has again written to the Ministry. Significantly, this is the first time that the US has responded to a global tender for an Indian defence deal. And its preference for the FMS route is more than obvious, unlike the Soviets earlier or Russians now, who, despite being India’s largest suppliers through its history, have never insisted on such strings attached.

An FMS would involve a government-to-government agreement on a contract without an open tender, which would ease the transfer of critical technologies, thus hastening the process. The flip side is that it is bound to raise expenses, which would obviate the entire rationale of a global tender which allows for open trials to meet the IAF’s requirements. Apart from restricting choices, such a deal would also let the US dictate a set of other terms, under a maintenance and usage clause, in contrast with the current scenario in which any supplier selected will have to meet terms of the tender as specified by India.

In his letter to the Ministry last month, Wieringa is said to have pitched hard for the 126-fighter deal—trials for which are in full swing, though delayed by a month. Four of the six aircraft in contention have completed their three-phase trials, while two are still undergoing them (likely to be done by the end of next month).

The Ministry has received letters from government representatives on behalf of other aircraft in the fray as well, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, preferring to adhere strictly to the transparency clause of the Defence Procurement Procedure.

Remember how the Comptroller and Auditor General (Cag) had raised the issue of US restrictions on offensive deployment of the landing platform dock ship USS Trenton, bought earlier by the Indian Navy? The Cag questioned India’s acquiescence to a US directive on inventory inspection of all articles transferred under the ‘end user monitoring’ clause, and the Left had slammed the Government for the clause’s figuring in the Trenton deal. Now the clause assumes heightened importance, given all the big ticket deals in the pipeline right now.

America’s end user monitoring mechanisms, which call for the regular physical inspection of military supplies by the US government, have been a sticking point in several Indo-US defence deals in the past as well. In June last year, it took many rounds of hard negotiation to sort out the monitoring of Boeing Business Jets procured by India for the use of the President and PM. The clause finally agreed upon by the National Security Advisor enables the US to inspect these VVIP aircraft once a year.

But this one-time agreement was not enough to sort out issues with monitoring in general. Vice Admiral Wieringa had played an important role last year when the mechanism had hit a roadblock; once a draft of the clause sent by Washington was rejected by the Ministry for infringing Indian sovereignty, he proposed that sample versions of text signed by the US with other countries be made available to South Block, for reference. Mutually agreed changes were made before the clause was finally signed by both countries last year during US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s visit to India.

On an average, India’s defence deals with Russia are worth an estimated $1.5 billion annually, and with Israel, about $1 billion. With the US, India has done defence business worth only $4 billion over the past eight years. But that figure could spike sharply upwards.

Guys , I am getting worried abt US twisting , i mean this FMS route will lurch MoD to seriously consider it + it would be easy for US to offer sophisticated tech . I mean this will ensure US as winner.
Secondly as shortlist date is coming , i am sure US will lure India more by offering Source codes and full Radar info and we will be trapped.
I have seen enough type of last minute sweetening done in BRAZIL , 50% discount + full TOT etc .
Just hope that shortlist is Fair and unbiased and without US influence .
Gripen my bet ,

Well I would say I trust MS and his aids - I mean the FMS route is not happening cos that would piss off the RUSSIANS, the FRENCH and everyone else.

Given the current relations that we have with the US under the Obama government a deal with the United States looks wonky at best but then again I would not be surprised if we got through.

In fact the latest statement made by Nirupama Roy in one way if you were to read between the lines emphasizes that till last year the commitment was all towards the American Jets (and the tender was a sham) but it also signals a shift in policy now and the tender is still alive and kicking.

It is too hard to predict. But if the IAF places the SH, EF and Rafale then I as an India will be satisfied by either of the three joining our armed forces. I will personally like Rafale then EF and then SH to win, but then again if we need to show the US that we are doing them a BIG FAVOUR then SH can be chosen (more so if US shifts it policies towards India similar to the Bush era)

 

[duhastmish]

If it was for bush era, i would expect a very sweet deal may be a , fa -18 super hornet with growler and source code and good amount of TOT. Also shifting of major production unit in india. and offer to get in to f-35 as an equal partner and share technology.

that would have kicked pak-fa out but who knows ........

that would have made indo - us relation closer than ever.

 

[sudhir007]

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

 

[syntax_error]

offtopic but ...
lol he has 1 more questions

 

[ejaz007]

Latest update about the MRCA:

April 28/10:

No decision for you. India needs to extend its competition for a year, because competitor flight trials won’t be finished until some time in May 2010. Today was to be the deadline and bid expiry, 2 years after accepting price quotes. India’s Defense Ministry has asked manufacturers to submit offers for an additional year. Flight trials remain underway at 3 key locations: near Leh, high in the Himalayas; a desert base in Rajasthan; and Bangalore’s tropical climate. The expectation is that the IAF will provide the government with 2-3 accetable options, then let the politicians pick.

Lockheed Martin (F-16 Block 60+) and Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet) have said that they are modifying their bids, Sweden’s Saab (JAS-39NG) plans to extend its bid unchanged, and Dassault (Rafale), EADS (Eurofighter), and RAC-MiG (MiG-35) have made no public commitment one way or another. This 1-year delay could raise costs, but more favorable exchange rates could shift prices the other way. It also gives competitors who have deepened their Indian partnerships the ability to revise that information in their offer.

From the MMRCA bid due date of April 28/08 to April 28/10, the US dollar has risen against India’s rupee about 10.5%, while the Euro has become 6% cheaper, and the Russian rouble has become 11.6% cheaper.

India’s MMRCA Fighter Competition

 

[sirius4u]

Guys , I am getting worried abt US twisting , i mean this FMS route will lurch MoD to seriously consider it + it would be easy for US to offer sophisticated tech . I mean this will ensure US as winner.
Secondly as shortlist date is coming , i am sure US will lure India more by offering Source codes and full Radar info and we will be trapped.
I have seen enough type of last minute sweetening done in BRAZIL , 50% discount + full TOT etc .
Just hope that shortlist is Fair and unbiased and without US influence .
Gripen my bet ,

How do you say that we will be trapped...?

Full TOT + source codes + full radar info= Very good deal...

I ll be happy with it...

Or is there any problem regarding this? Seniors, plz help me...

 

[KEETARP]

How do you say that we will be trapped...?

Full TOT + source codes + full radar info= Very good deal...

I ll be happy with it...

Or is there any problem regarding this? Seniors, plz help me...

Try and read something on EUMA , its various clauses .

May be for intro this link will help-
Under pressure, India agrees to sign EUMA | India Defence Online