Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[atlssa]

With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!

I see!
Thank you very much for answering. Let's wait and see what comes up!

 

[halloweene]

TBH, don't you think Dassault was already in talks with BJP for months?

 

[Abingdonboy]

TBH, don't you think Dassault was already in talks with BJP for months?

This is what I've heard.....

 

[sancho]

TBH, don't you think Dassault was already in talks with BJP for months?

So? They were in talks with the new Brazilian government too and did that change anything?
What counts is, what the BJP will decide when they are in power, which policies they will follow, which budgets they have in mind and where they will put their priorities. All that can turn their decisions to one of the sides that I mentioned in the earlier posts.

 

[atlssa]

So? They were in talks with the new Brazilian government too and did that change anything?
What counts is, what the BJP will decide when they are in power, which policies they will follow, which budgets they have in mind and where they will put their priorities. All that can turn their decisions to one of the sides that I mentioned in the earlier posts.

In our case, we gave up on Rafale. Very good plane, but too expensive to buy, even more expensive to maintain.
For us, It didn't make any sense since other fighters are able to do almost the same job, costing a fraction of what Rafale does.

 

[rockstarIN]

Hi, I think it's pretty open at the moment and can even result in a re-evaluation like it was the case in your country after the government change. For India it can look like this:


3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA


With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!

+ leasing out few Gripen squadrons like some European countries do.

 

[DacterSaab]

Because they don't share their high techs and AESA radar techs are the highest techs besides engine techs today.

Well they are going to transfer F414 techs and had Viper or Hornet won MMRCA they would have transferred APG-79 or 80 techs to us. So why not 2052?

Which would be completely stupid! Our industry is so far behind everybody, we need licence productions, ToT and offsets in every possible way to improve them and that of critical techs, not minor airframe parts. So no, any US fighter without licence production of critical parts is a no go.

Hey Obama puts a few hundred million $ in Banks of Modi and lot and they'll just say that they are purchasing because rapidly increasing squadron strength of IAF is more important today than tech transfer. Also it will make us the first AF in region to deploy 5th-gen jets. And I never said it would be a smart move but you were the one who said that deals can be re-evaluated with different priorities. So that means the priority may be to re-establish with Russia the Alliance we once had with USSR cause we'll need help if there is an open-conflict with PRC in which MiGs will be Inducted and again I'm not saying it'll be wise but what I'm saying is true. As for EFT the MMRCA contact has a clause where L2 bidder might be chosen but I don't remember the conditions required, yet what Industrial benefits will come from EFT that won't come with Rafale especially since they are not providing as much TOT as Dassault and don't have a Naval version that could be operated from IAC-2?

Actually it wasn't clear, but predictable. IF we had chosen EF, they would have funded and started the final development earlier and therefor the AESA "could" be ready in time, but I also had criticized that before.
On the other side, you have to look at the whole picture and that includes industrial benefits, flight performance or possible weapon packages too and the EF was possibly first in indistrial and flight performance terms, while also offering the best cruise missiles next to Rafale. And at the end exactly these points might had been cruicial for the shortlisting.

The MMRCA required the first squadron to be delivered within 36 months of signing the contract. Let's say it took 2 years from finalization to signing of contact. So could they have developed the radar within 2-3 years? I'm not sure about what Industrial benefits you speak of? And in terms of flight performance I'd say the difference b/w the finalists was negligible and more weapons are integrated into the DR as compared to EFT. Also if I'm correct your probably referring to TAURUS since SCALP is integrated on Rafale. The Shortlisting was done purely on basis of evaluation trial and technologies offered.

The Gripen NG came to India with AESA as well, but 1 month too late and with older Gripens making the bulk of the trials, which alone would had been a reason for me, to not approve them to the trials at all. We wasted a lot of time there!

Yes that was an utter wastage of time especially since we were developing LCA for low-cost option. btw did it come with Raven at that time? cause unless I'm mistaken they were going for some other radar earlier.
Also the Falcon which was never really in the race and Fulcrum was just Hype at Aero India they were never gonna win either, And when F/A-18 entered MMRCA, Washington had made it very clear that there would be restrictions which IAF cannot afford to accept on ~200 fighters. So it was pretty clear it will not be selected.
And lastly When you are going to purchase potentially ~200 jets for billions of $s would you not look back at recent history on which country has been a better arms supplier. One who allowed you to quickly integrate LGB on jets at time of conflict and did not impose any embargoes even when the whole of West did so or the other who took your money then did not provide with trainers for decades and only restarted delivery so it might help their chances of securing MMRCA.
Thus if you skip back to around the time when I joined PDF you will find me stating clearly that Rafale was gonna win.

Lets see how that plays out now when they are in power and when the EF consortium, German and British government will try to re-convince them.

As will the US.

3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA

Again they would never do that as surely as the Sun is not gonna rise from the west.

With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!

This is politics when in opposition you are supposed to oppose everything that ruling party does and for the love of God how many promises have you seen these politicians keep in your life? And if they do decide against Rafale it's gonna be possibly the most dumbest thing they can do.

So? They were in talks with the new Brazilian government too and did that change anything?

You do realize that comparing Brazil and India is like comparing apples and oranges.

In our case, we gave up on Rafale. Very good plane, but too expensive to buy, even more expensive to maintain.
For us, It didn't make any sense since other fighters are able to do almost the same job, costing a fraction of what Rafale does.

For you, it doesn't make sense cause you don't have immediate neighbors threatening your borders and outnumbering you 1:4 times. And yes any fighter can do almost any job, costing a fraction of some or the other fighter. You can use MiG-27s or Jaguars for A2A missions but then why are nations using MiG-21/29, MKI or Raptors for A2A beats me?

+ leasing out few Gripen squadrons like some European countries do

That's not even funny anymore. IAF will have no Gripen unless govt decides to shutdown LCA stating that it's no longer competitive in today threat environments.

 

[atlssa]

For you, it doesn't make sense cause you don't have immediate neighbors threatening your borders and outnumbering you 1:4 times.

Of course... Our situation is way too different. Your decision shall be be done accordingly.

 

[sancho]

In our case, we gave up on Rafale. Very good plane, but too expensive to buy, even more expensive to maintain.
For us, It didn't make any sense since other fighters are able to do almost the same job, costing a fraction of what Rafale does.

Money won't be the issue for us, especially since our aims are on operational capability too, since our threat perception is very different to Brazils and there the Gripen for us obviously falls short, while it's enough for Brazil.
But we also have other fighters coming in, like LCA MK1, FGFA and in the long term possibly AMCA. So if the package of benefits that Rafale offers is not good enough for BJP anymore, they might turn to other available options that India have, eventhough the MMRCA is the only option that helps us industrially.

+ leasing out few Gripen squadrons like some European countries do.

That's not an option at all! Only the Gripen C would be available now, which doesn't fit to the IAF requirements, is in the same class of LCA MK1 and it would add another type of fighter, which nobody wants. Only countries with low threat perceptions and even lower defence budgets leased Gripens, because that's what it is, a low cost, reasonably capable fighter for air policing or CAS rols and nothing that makes a difference for us.

 

[sancho]

Well they are going to transfer F414 techs and had Viper or Hornet won MMRCA they would have transferred APG-79 or 80 techs to us. So why not 2052?

But not critical techs, especially not AESA or EW techs, which was one of the reasons their fighter were rejected ourright. The whole negotiations in the ATGM competition is also based on the fact, that the US don't want to provide us with reasonable techs for the licence production, while the Israelis are, just like in MMRCA they weren't while Russian (theoretically) and Europeans are as well. The EL 2052 is not an option as well because the US, which blocked it for India several times now. They denied Saab to use it in their MMRCA offer, they denied to use it in LCA and even deny co-developments with the Israelis based on that techs. So as long as that doesn't change, only less important stuff in smaller numbers will be procured from the US, while the big ticket procurements will remain with Russia, Israel and Europe.

Also it will make us the first AF in region to deploy 5th-gen jets.

No it doesn't, if that would be the aim we would go for early Pak Fa around 2016 and not F35s around 2018 and beyond.

yet what Industrial benefits will come from EFT that won't come with Rafale especially since they are not providing as much TOT as Dassault

They offered a full partnership, with access to all techs, production of parts for all EFs and export fighters..., not to mention that they can provide it through Airbus and BAE, 2 of the biggest defence companies in the world, which alone makes it industrially far different, than what Dassault could offer.
Also they offered us to take the lead in design and development of the naval typhoon as part of the consortium partnership, which also is an offer Dassault couldn't give, but since that version is not really capable and has zero export changes, that offer wasn't useful for India anyway. The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistiacally however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require, has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used and with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway. So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.

The MMRCA required the first squadron to be delivered within 36 months of signing the contract. Let's say it took 2 years from finalization to signing of contact. So could they have developed the radar within 2-3 years?

As I said, with the required fundings it might have been possible, since they had developments going on based on AESA tech demonstrators, but it wouldn't had been as mature as the RBE 2 is now and might had been limited to A2A modes only at the begining.

And in terms of flight performance I'd say the difference b/w the finalists was negligible and more weapons are integrated into the DR as compared to EFT. Also if I'm correct your probably referring to TAURUS since SCALP is integrated on Rafale. The Shortlisting was done purely on basis of evaluation trial and technologies offered

Not really, performance whise the EF is clearly better. Be it speed in general, Supercruise capability, ceilling..., up to the fact that it can carry more METEOR in every role compared to the Rafale and that in a low drag & RCS config, and as I recently explained, the advantage of Rafales weapon pack is reducing currently, with AASMs future in doubt on the one side, Storm Shadow, Paveway IV and possibly Brimstone beeing added on the other side.
Rafale has only Scalp, EF will now get Storm Shadow (the sister of Scalp if you want) and later also Taurus, which were part of the EFs offer in MMRCA:

btw did it come with Raven at that time? cause unless I'm mistaken they were going for some other radar earlier.

With a tech demo varient of it, but the main AESA tests were done in Sweden anyway and the NG made only a few trials in India anyway, which makes the rejection actually pretty logical.

This is politics when in opposition you are supposed to oppose everything that ruling party does

Nope! First of all, there is no opposition when it comes to the defence of India, since the ruling government and the oppositions must have the same aim here.
What the opposition has to do is, to check the government decisions for irregularities and if found make them visible. But what the BJP did wrt Rafale and even before the shortlisting or selection of Rafale, was complete baseless ranting, only aimed at the fighter and Dassault actually. They didn't even really attacked the MoD, which shows that they do have some issues with the selection of Rafale, for whatever reasons.

You do realize that comparing Brazil and India is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not at all! It's even exactly the same game! The same fighters in the competition, initially even with the same priorities (capability of the fighter and strategic / industrial advantages), which resulted into clear preferences , but then were delayed to the elections, whith the government providing the decision to the next one. That then re-evaluated the decision once more with different prioities (which BJP is free to do now as well) and the final selection of a totally different fighter.
Not what I want, but what realistically can happen!

 

[sancho]

Not that related anymore, but still interesting:

Saab Loses $3.5 Billion Jet Order as Swiss Reject Gripen

...The 22-plane contract, which Switzerland awarded 2 1/2 years ago, was opposed by 53.4 percent of voters, the Swiss government in Bern said yesterday. The latest survey ahead of the vote had showed some 51 percent of people opposing the transaction while 44 percent were in favor...

Saab Loses $3.5 Billion Jet Order as Swiss Reject Gripen - Bloomberg

 

[sancho]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):

Maintenance/MRO cost of the Rafale:

For the record , in December 2004, the french Court of Auditors (Cour des Comptes) assessed the MRO cost of the Rafale to € 35,000 per flight hour . According to the Ministry of Defence, this cost should decrease to €10,000 per flight hour for Rafale B/C and € 7,000 for Rafale M in 2012. What are the actual numbers ?

Rafale B/C in 2012:

Total MRO cost: € 182,60 millions
Aircraft : 77 (1)
Annual cost per aircraft : € 2,371 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): € 9484

http://questions.assemblee-nationale...14-22636QE.htm

Rafale M in 2013:

Total MRO cost : € 100,7 millions
Aircraft : 35 (1)
Annual cost per aircraft : € 2,877 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): € 11508

http://questions.assemblee-nationale...14-47343QE.htm

Mirage 2000 in 2012:

Total cost : 294,90 millions
Aircraft : 136 (1)(2)
Annual cost per aircraft: € 2,168 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours) : € 8672

Mirage 2000 - € 8672 ($11896)
Rafale B/C - € 9484 ($13010)

Should be very interesting for IAF to compare these figures.

 

[Agent_47]

Also they offered us to take the lead in design and development of the naval typhoon as part of the consortium partnership, which also is an offer Dassault couldn't give, but since that version is not really capable and has zero export changes, that offer wasn't useful for India anyway. The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistically however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require, has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used and with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway. So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.

How about buying 1 sqd of Rafale till AMCA is ready (say,2030) and then transferring those to maritime strike sqd of IAF?

 

[sancho]

How about buying 1 sqd of Rafale till AMCA is ready (say,2030) and then transferring those to maritime strike sqd of IAF?

The requirement is for at least 7 x Squads, which can't wait till 2030, so either MMRCAs, or another option in the 2016 to 2025 timeframe. So AMCA is no alternative, at least not for IAF.

 

[Agent_47]

The requirement is for at least 7 x Squads, which can't wait till 2030, so either MMRCAs, or another option in the 2016 to 2025 timeframe. So AMCA is no alternative, at least not for IAF.

No,i was talking about Rafale M , buy a sqd for IAC-2 till N-AMCA is ready and replace those rafale in the maritime strike sqd of IAF