Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

No,i was talking about Rafale M , buy a sqd for IAC-2 till N-AMCA is ready and replace those rafale in the maritime strike sqd of IAF

From my reply to DacterSaab:

The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistically however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require, has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used and with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway. So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.

 

[DacterSaab]

Only countries with low threat perceptions and even lower defence budgets leased Gripens, because that's what it is, a low cost, reasonably capable fighter for air policing or CAS rols and nothing that makes a difference for us.

Hi @sancho in MMRCA according to you which was a better fighter F-16IN or Gripen NG? I'd really appreciate if others would contribute? I don't know much about either one of the fighters?

they denied to use it in LCA and even deny co-developments with the Israelis based on that techs.

Is it still possible to build independent AESA as JV or maybe with help from Israel as we did with LCA when we approached France?

only less important stuff in smaller numbers will be procured from the US

Can F-35C for IAC-2 fall under that category?

 

[sancho]

in MMRCA according to you which was a better fighter F-16IN or Gripen NG?

For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!

Is it still possible to build independent AESA as JV or maybe with help from Israel as we did with LCA when we approached France?

It is possible to jointly develop an AESA, based on our requirements but with foreign partners, but not for Rafale since it already has a ready developed and fully integrated AESA.

Can F-35C for IAC-2 fall under that category?

Yes, an RFI was sent to LM for the F35C too, but with all the operational restrictions and the high costs, it will be more than difficult for them to seal a deal with India. Actually the only reason might be a coupled offer with EMALS, which the IN desperately wants for, but even here the upgraded F18SH + EMALS would be the better choice for us, far more cost-effective and the better stop gap solution for an AMCA.

 

[sancho]

Rafael vs Thales / Sagem, an interesting battle on the Indian market, which now might have a big impact in the Mirage 2000 upgrade and the Rafale procurement:


SPICE 2000 vs AASM 1000 (2000lb class PGM for heavy strikes) - 1:0 for Israel in the Mirage 2000 upgrade, most likely also for Rafale

Litening G4 vs Damocles / PDL NG (targeting pod) - "rumored" 2:0 for Israel, most likely for Mirage 2000 UPG and Rafale

Other possible battles:

SPICE 250 vs AASM 125/250 (250 to 500lb class PGMs for CAS and SEAD) - possible cost advantage for the Israeli bomb kit, but also in guidance, range and load capabilities.

Reccelite vs Reco NG (reconnaissance pods) - possible technical advantage for the French pod, which is already integrated, while the Israeli pod would offer simple integrate and use to any Indian fighter with Litening pods.

 

[halloweene]

Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) sentence today about BJP victory : "For us, it is reassuring because I think this will further accelerate the process".

 

[DacterSaab]

For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!

No it doesn't, if that would be the aim we would go for early Pak Fa around 2016 and not F35s around 2018 and beyond.

2014 is going on even if we want early PAK-FA today, it cannot arrive before 2018. Also early PAK-FA and JSF are both designed for seprate roles and with seprate combat philosphy in mind. Infact there are several missions that JSF is capable of doing that early PAK-FA cannot and vice-versa. Also there is no reason why an Air Force shouldn't or can't operate both. Also the US are aiming to somehow sell them to us.

They offered a full partnership, with access to all techs

Access to all techs of EADS origin which is not 100% of the EFT since it uses certain techs of US origin.

production of parts for all EFs and export fighters...,

Which does not include the no. of fighters already being inducted also there is hardly any export potential left definitely not enough to cover up the cost we would have to invest in EFT in order to fund additional required capabilities which the developing nations do not seem interested in anymore except perhaps Germany.

not to mention that they can provide it through Airbus and BAE, 2 of the biggest defence companies in the world, which alone makes it industrially far different, than what Dassault could offer.

Not to mention deliveries could be halted at the mere whim of any of the partners than France which is highly unlikely to do so.

The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistiacally however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require,

If it is required it can easily be developed.

has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used

If it is good enough for French on CDG, then it should be good enough for us.

with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway.

true, i forgot that the date of induction of IAC-2 has been revised and is not expected to enter service before 2025, although do you know if the design has been frozen yet?

So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.

Yes, but that will be welcome from EADS also should there be any problem with Dassualt.

Nope! First of all, there is no opposition when it comes to the defence of India, since the ruling government and the oppositions must have the same aim here.
What the opposition has to do is, to check the government decisions for irregularities and if found make them visible. But what the BJP did wrt Rafale and even before the shortlisting or selection of Rafale, was complete baseless ranting, only aimed at the fighter and Dassault actually. They didn't even really attacked the MoD, which shows that they do have some issues with the selection of Rafale, for whatever reasons.

that maybe true, but they should not screw up this deal, if they truly want the benefit of Indian Defense.

Not really, performance whise the EF is clearly better. Be it speed in general, Supercruise capability, ceilling..., up to the fact that it can carry more METEOR in every role compared to the Rafale and that in a low drag & RCS config, and as I recently explained, the advantage of Rafales weapon pack is reducing currently, with AASMs future in doubt on the one side, Storm Shadow, Paveway IV and possibly Brimstone beeing added on the other side.
Rafale has only Scalp, EF will now get Storm Shadow (the sister of Scalp if you want) and later also Taurus, which were part of the EFs offer in MMRCA:

Maybe, but you, yourself are aware of certain areas in which Rafale scores higher than EFT and where EFT will not be able to match Rafales capability even after very expensive upgrades funded by India.

Not at all! It's even exactly the same game! The same fighters in the competition, initially even with the same priorities (capability of the fighter and strategic / industrial advantages), which resulted into clear preferences , but then were delayed to the elections, whith the government providing the decision to the next one. That then re-evaluated the decision once more with different prioities (which BJP is free to do now as well) and the final selection of a totally different fighter.
Not what I want, but what realistically can happen!

True but, with the threat perception of India, there is no other fighter except Rafale that can provide us with same, maybe even similar, capabilities at a lower cost or with higher benefits. Be it industrial or geopolitical.

Not that related anymore, but still interesting:

Bad news for Saab.

For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!

Not only for MMRCA or IAF but in general as a whole?

F18SH

No way in 2025 even Rafale isn't good enough and would be better stop gap since IAF will operate them.

 

[Yeti]

Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) sentence today about BJP victory : "For us, it is reassuring because I think this will further accelerate the process".

I think it will be signed early 2015 myself if not the year end being optimistic but with the size of this deal anything is possible still.

 

[sancho]

Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) sentence today about BJP victory : "For us, it is reassuring because I think this will further accelerate the process".

That's only one part, the more interesting one was this:

Chief Executive Eric Trappier said he hoped to sign a deal to sell Rafale fighter jets to India by the end of the year following the election of pro-business candidate Narendra Modi as the country's new prime minister.

Dassault hopes to sign Rafale India deal this year| Reuters


So much for accelerating the process! In fact all his recent statements showed nothing more than hope on a decision nothing more and this with a decision by the end of the year, rather than after the elections like it might had been the case with the UPA government, if they had won is more than downer and hints more to risk of re-evaluating things as I said.

 

[sancho]

2014 is going on even if we want early PAK-FA today, it cannot arrive before 2018.

That's not correct, the Russian air force still aims on induction between 2015 and 2016, the question is only what capabilities that version will have.

Infact there are several missions that JSF is capable of doing that early PAK-FA cannot and vice-versa.

Not really, both are multi role fighters, but the F35 is simply badly designed for A2A and with limited capacity during strike roles too.
It is even likely that the Pak Fa can carry more AAMs with the same strike load, to further distances than the F35 could.

Access to all techs of EADS origin which is not 100% of the EFT since it uses certain techs of US origin.

Only minor components, all major techs (radar, engine, EW) are developed in Europe.

Which does not include the no. of fighters already being inducted

Of course not, that's not possible since we have no production line runing today, but that doesn't matter, even if we would take over parts of the production of upgrades alone, it would mean parts for more than 500 fighter + the once we would order, which would be a huge deal from an industrial point of view. I showed some month ago that LCA MK1 and the EF actually have pretty similar MFDs and cockpit layouts. LCA Mk2 will get modernised MFDs, so even if we would provide them only for the future modernisation of that many EFs it would be a win.

If it is required it can easily be developed.

Only with credible fundings, which is the reason the French cancelled the development of the naval twin seater and for the few fighters that we would need, an additional development makes no sense.

If it is good enough for French on CDG, then it should be good enough for us.

It was good for the French because it was a big leap in capability compared to the single role fighters it started replacing more than a decade ago and on a carrier that already was developed. So they had no other option anyway, while we can still decide about the design and layout of the carrier as well as it's fighters, or the numbers of fighters that the carrier should carry, which makes the situation pretty different.

Yes, but that will be welcome from EADS also should there be any problem with Dassualt.

They already assist us in navalising N-LCA, but normally (although that is relative in India), you take a partner that has credible experience or could even provide of the shelf parts, like the modified gear of the Rafale M.

Maybe, but you, yourself are aware of certain areas in which Rafale scores higher than EFT and where EFT will not be able to match Rafales capability even after very expensive upgrades funded by India.

I am actually more afraid of a blind indigenous development policy, that would cancell the MMRCA completelly rather than the EF winning, but we simply can't rule out that the BJP wants to re-evaluate or would be influenced by the EF partners.

True but, with the threat perception of India, there is no other fighter except Rafale that can provide us with same, maybe even similar, capabilities at a lower cost or with higher benefits. Be it industrial or geopolitical.

For the threat perception an EF with some upgrades would be more than deadly too, but it's the high costs that it's main disadvantage

 

[Abingdonboy]

No,i was talking about Rafale M , buy a sqd for IAC-2 till N-AMCA is ready and replace those rafale in the maritime strike sqd of IAF

IAC-2 will be in service by around 2022-4 and will serve for 30 years. It makes zero sense to buy Rafale Ms for the IAC-2. The IAC-2 needs a next generation fighter from day one but then I am all out of ideas to be honest because there is no way the N-AMCA will be ready for that time, I have serious reservations about F-35 and the N-FGFA supposedly will not be able to take off using catapults so solve that conundrum......

That's only one part, the more interesting one was this:



Dassault hopes to sign Rafale India deal this year| Reuters


So much for accelerating the process! In fact all his recent statements showed nothing more than hope on a decision nothing more and this with a decision by the end of the year, rather than after the elections like it might had been the case with the UPA government, if they had won is more than downer and hints more to risk of re-evaluating things as I said.

I think you are reading too much into this to be fair. He would be stupid and foolish to say he was certain because things can change and he can't leave himself exposed like that. Being hopeful is all he can say right now, anything more than that on his part would be silly.

 

[sancho]

I think you are reading too much into this to be fair. He would be stupid and foolish to say he was certain because things can change and he can't leave himself exposed like that. Being hopeful is all he can say right now, anything more than that on his part would be silly.

Actually it was his statement that he on the one side believes in fasten the decision thanks to BJP, but at the same time hopes for a decision only by the end of the year. That actually shows his own uncertainty doesn't it? And depending on what BJP thinks when they have their government set up and actually are in charge, needs to be seen too. It's just sad considering that the deal could had been done by last year, if these useless workshare issues hadn't came up.

 

[DacterSaab]

For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!

Sorry, but I meant in general for any country with high defense requirements is F_16IN a better fighter or Gripen NG?

That's not correct, the Russian air force still aims on induction between 2015 and 2016, the question is only what capabilities that version will have.

Most probably only A2A capabilities and even with Russian induction by 2015/2016, the induction in IAF won't be before 2018.

Not really, both are multi role fighters, but the F35 is simply badly designed for A2A and with limited capacity during strike roles too.

True but JSF specializes in A2G while PAK-FA will have limited A2G capability for atleast a decade if induction is by 2015/2016. Even early FGFAs may be limited in A2G roles.

so even if we would provide them only for the future modernisation of that many EFs it would be a win.

But will that be sufficient to cover-up the integrations we will have to fund?

Only with credible fundings, which is the reason the French cancelled the development of the naval twin seater and for the few fighters that we would need, an additional development makes no sense.

Most probably few stop-gap RafaleM would only be ordered if earliest induction is by 2025 until NAMCA is developed. Although how they are gonna make AMCA capable of CATOBAR operations without designing for it since the beginning beats me.

while we can still decide about the design and layout of the carrier as well as it's fighters,

No carrier is expected to fly the same aircraft throughout it's service-life, you need to keep the future in mind while designing a Carrier.

or the numbers of fighters that the carrier should carry, which makes the situation pretty different.

The strength of CDG's fighter group is more than enough for a 45k tonne carrier.

I am actually more afraid of a blind indigenous development policy, that would cancell the MMRCA completelly rather than the EF winning, but we simply can't rule out that the BJP wants to re-evaluate or would be influenced by the EF partners.

Take my word they're not gonna cancel MMRCA. The indigenous developments cannot compensate the drop in squad strength a cancellation at this point will manifest. Also if they would be influenced by EF const. then I'm sure US will try to influence them as well.

serve for 30 years.

Unless it is nuclear powered in which case make it 50 years.

 

[sancho]

Sorry, but I meant in general for any country with high defense requirements is F_16IN a better fighter or Gripen NG?

The Gripen is still much undeveloped and a lot of the promised specs seems to be just SAAB's PR and not realistic. It surely is a good fighter, the addition of fuel and hardpoints was a really smart move, but remains mainly a fighter for air policing and lighter payload capabilities. The F16 on the other hand is a propper medium class fighter, with highly upgraded techs and capabilities but based on an old design, with not much future potential anymore.

True but JSF specializes in A2G while PAK-FA will have limited A2G capability for atleast a decade if induction is by 2015/2016. Even early FGFAs may be limited in A2G roles.

That's not correct, F35s "specialisation" in A2G is mainly aimed on carrying bigger strike loads, than what was planned for the F22 and the integrated LDP (which also will be used as IRST). The Pak Fa / FGFA on the other side, is estimated to carry as big strike loads + additional AAMs, with far more available power, to greater ranges. So it is geared for long range strikes from the start as well.

But will that be sufficient to cover-up the integrations we will have to fund?

Multiple times, we fund and develop the MFDs for LCA MK2 anyway and selling the same to several hundred other fighters would pay the funds back in no time. We even sell avionics for Flankers today, which initially were developed for our MKIs too. Doing the same in a partnership would just open more options to sell Indian techs and parts.

Take my word they're not gonna cancel MMRCA

That would be the worst case scenario.

 

[arp2041]

 

[halloweene]

Just to say, i know Lionel Charlet is very touchy about his pictures, so if you use them you should mention him