Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kaykay]

any idea if we are getting any new hmd with pakfa??
maybe we can use that here

By the time Rafale will come to India, HMD will be available.

Talked to a DA vice president today, HMD IS integrated. About supplementary maws i'm doubtful as you would need to rewire the plane. Btw, mica IR sensors also act as maws...

Thanks for the info.

 

[DacterSaab]

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.
Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.
The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece , even after F3R.
France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…

any idea if we are getting any new hmd with pakfa??
maybe we can use that here

IAF uses Lightening LDP Standard on all current fighters (MKI, LCA, Jaguars, not sure about MiG-29smt/k, M2k5), also we have a competition for a NG LDP. The MiG-29smt/k will probably get lightening or NG pod, while M2k5s will probably get Damocles if Rafale brings it in, don't care about others.
As for HMS, The IAF has mandated it on every aircraft even MiG-21s and Sea-Harriers of IN have em. We are currently using DASH and Topsight-I which will probably be integrated into IAF Rafales and MKIs.
So I don't think those short comings will effect IAF Rafales. Cause even if only Damocles is integrated, during a war Lightening or NG pod can be easily integrated since we have source codes for both and it is not a lengthy/difficult process.

 

[Abingdonboy]

By the time Rafale will come to India, HMD will be available.

IAF uses Lightening LDP Standard on all current fighters (MKI, LCA, Jaguars, not sure about MiG-29smt/k, M2k5), also we have a competition for a NG LDP. The MiG-29smt/k will probably get lightening or NG pod, while M2k5s will probably get Damocles if Rafale brings it in, don't care about others.
As for HMS, The IAF has mandated it on every aircraft even MiG-21s and Sea-Harriers of IN have em. We are currently using DASH and Topsight-I which will probably be integrated into IAF Rafales and MKIs.
So I don't think those short comings will effect IAF Rafales. Cause even if only Damocles is integrated, during a war Lightening or NG pod can be easily integrated since we have source codes for both and it is not a lengthy/difficult process.

+ @sancho


The LITENING G4 has already won this competition for LDPs for the MKI, MIG-29UPG and Jags to join the existing stock of G2s and G3s that are said to be converted to G4 standard as part of a separate deal:

SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation


It would make little sense now for the IAF to choose the Damocles over the LITENING G4 for the M2K upgrades and Rafales the ONLY contributory factor could be integration costs that the IAF may have to pay for but I think whatever they may be the IAF wants the G4 on the Rafale and M2Ks. IIRC Dassualt said they had been in touch with Rafeal specifically on this matter of integrating the LITENING for the IAF's Rafales.

 

[Nishan-101]

Any possibility of Taiwan buying 100-200 Rafaels to replace its F-16s fleet or buying the 150 Mirage-2000s from France to replace its F-16s...

 

[Abingdonboy]

Any possibility of Taiwan buying 100-200 Rafaels to replace its F-16s fleet or buying the 150 Mirage-2000s from France to replace its F-16s...

Welcome back @Nishan-101 I for one never had an issue with your, let's say, over exuberance. Anyway this isn't the place to discuss this bro, this thread is specifically for the Indian Air Force's Rafale/MMRCA procurement.

 

[sancho]

+ @sancho


The LITENING G4 has already won this competition for LDPs for the MKI, MIG-29UPG and Jags to join the existing stock of G2s and G3s that are said to be converted to G4 standard as part of a separate deal:

SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation


It would make little sense now for the IAF to choose the Damocles over the LITENING G4 for the M2K upgrades and Rafales the ONLY contributory factor could be integration costs that the IAF may have to pay for but I think whatever they may be the IAF wants the G4 on the Rafale and M2Ks. IIRC Dassualt said they had been in touch with Rafeal specifically on this matter of integrating the LITENING for the IAF's Rafales.

SP basically reported that there is interest of the Litening, but there is no official confirmation so far that the Israeli pod won and more over for what fighters, we have to wait a bit more I guess. Also don't underestimate integration costs of systems that are not originally developed for the fighter, since they can be very high as seen in the integration costs that MBDA UK asked for the integration of Brimstone to Rafale. IF Dassault would decide to ask simply too high costs, it wouldn't make any comercial sense anymore for IAF, but I guess Dassault is smart enough to not risk the fighter deal for some LDPs.

Talked to a DA vice president today, HMD IS integrated. About supplementary maws i'm doubtful as you would need to rewire the plane. Btw, mica IR sensors also act as maws...

Which HMS and funded by whom? Also who fundet the SATCOM integration? MICA IR seekers can't be Dassaults solution for every weak point (lack of IRST, lack of MAWS), it's basically a single additional DDM NG sensor needed, somewhere below the cockpit section, to provide real spherical coverage.

By the time Rafale will come to India, HMD will be available.

Only if somebody funds the final integration or even development and the French government doesn't do it as we know, so it needs to be seen if Qatar does it before India (the later would be more beneficiary for us of course, since we then would get the whole production line).

 

[Abingdonboy]

SP basically reported that there is interest of the Litening,

To be fair sir, the SP report says a bit more than just that:

after reportedly bagging a massive contract for over 150 LITENING targeting pods for the Indian Air Force's combat aircraft fleet. A spokesperson for Rafael wouldn't confirm details but indicated to SP'sthat the LITENING pod had been chosen by the Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft,

Only if somebody funds the final integration or even development and the French government doesn't do it as we know,

One of the original requirements for the IAF for the MMRCA was to have a plane delivered with a HMDS, this was known to Dassualt from day 1. There simply is no question of IF the IAF will be electing to go for HMDS on their Rafales. If Dassualt hadn't already agreed to this they wouldn't have made it past the technical evaluation stages.

I think there is the possibility we are looking into this too much, the fact is a integrated HMDS was mandatory just to make it past the technical evaluations and non-compliance with this would have seen the fighter thrown out. The fact is no one has raised any issue with the HMDS and neither has anyone said Dassualt won't be delivering the Indian Rafales with a HMDS- not even the Rafale's competitiors that have a HMDS in service on their a/c (EFT) so really this is a storm in a tea cup that doesn't even exist.

it needs to be seen if Qatar does it before India

Latest news was that Qatar was waiting to see what India did on the Rafale front so it's unlikely we'll see Qatar place orders before India or any other nation for that matter especially considering the Indian Rafale deal is, what, a few months away from being signed? There is no other potential purchaser on the horizon for that time frame.

 

[Sergi]

@sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 @halloweene
Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI. Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.
I am kinda skeptical on info anybody share the thought ??? Any thoughts on this news ???

The same guy claimed that production for IAF has already started in Jan,2014. Its just not possible to produce without confirmation from GOI. So its most probably a fake news too. Sorry guies

 

[halloweene]

Which HMS and funded by whom? Also who fundet the SATCOM integration? MICA IR seekers can't be Dassaults solution for every weak point (lack of IRST, lack of MAWS), it's basically a single additional DDM NG sensor needed, somewhere below the cockpit section, to provide real spherical coverage.

self funded by DA. The type of HMD i couldn't know exactly, probably topsight new version.

The same guy claimed that production for IAF has already started in Jan,2014. Its just not possible to produce without confirmation from GOI. So its most probably a fake news too. Sorry guies

Not exactly. French state guarantee 11/Rafale production rythm. So some could be for india... If signed otherwise they'll go to AdlA

 

[sancho]

To be fair sir, the SP report says a bit more than just that

An "indication" that the Litening is selected, from the manufacturer, is not an official confirmation and doesn't tell us more about the aimed platforms either. It's a good sign of course and I expected that from the start as you know, but I leaned that we need a lot of patience and official confirmations in this competition.

One of the original requirements for the IAF for the MMRCA was to have a plane delivered with a HMDS, this was known to Dassualt from day 1. There simply is no question of IF the IAF will be electing to go for HMDS on their Rafales. If Dassualt hadn't already agreed to this they wouldn't have made it past the technical evaluation stages.

Of course and there is no doubt that Indian Rafales would have HMS if we select it, but we have to fund the final integration first, since neither French government, nor Dassault has done that so far. Just like we can have FSO - IRST, but that we have to pay for, or take over the production of it, since that part is not in production anymore.
It's the same with EF's AESA, TVC, or the EPE engine, IRST and additional passive sensors of the F18SH. The manufacturer can "offer" featurers that could be added to the fighter, but aren't funded yet, they just have to do it from the start and that certain data of them will be diverted for at least theoretical evaluation.

Latest news was that Qatar was waiting to see what India did on the Rafale front so it's unlikely we'll see Qatar place orders before India

Nope, they have no advantage from waiting on India, since they have their own requirements and needs. In fact that need to find a taker for the M2Ks, which will be a crucial point for their new procurement. The recent reports also suggest that they are up to more advantages, maybe even from different sides, by going not only for 36 x fighters, but possibly even 72, maybe in form of 2 different fighters (EU/US split like UAE and Saudi). Then you have the fast A330MRTT procurement of the last weeks, which clearly hints on a fast fighter selection too, since their M2Ks afaik doesn't have IFR capability.
They might be more influenced by a possible decision of the UAE and the support of Saudi Arabia for the EF, than that we select a Rafale with Israeli features, that they can't get anyway.

self funded by DA. The type of HMD i couldn't know exactly, probably topsight new version.

Self funded SATCOM would make sense, since it's clear that the French forces will need this feature soon too, but self funded HMS would be more than surprising, since they offered that feature to UAE, in Brazil or Switzerland only as an option.

 

[Abingdonboy]

India: the Rafale file follows its course despite electoral truce

Elections in India, whose final result will not be known before mid-May, should not slow down the completion of the Rafale deal , according to Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation. "I rest on the belief that, given the willingness of Indians to go fast. Work continues on the field despite the election period. " Meetings with industry partners and government and military authorities are held at this time. The matter is in the hands of the present administration who will present it to the new government in June. The French manufacturer reasonably expects that the contract will be signed before the end of 2014.
From:
http://www.aerobuzz.fr/spip.php?brev...medium=twitter

 

[surya kiran]

Not sure, if anybody posted this before
France to send four Rafales to India for quadrennial 'Garuda' exercises - IHS Jane's 360

France will send four Dassault Rafale fighters to India in June to take part in the fifth round of joint 'Garuda' air exercises, an Indian Air Force spokesman said in New Delhi on 22 April.

He told IHS Jane's that the Rafales, accompanied by a KC-135 Stratotanker tanker, will undertake combat drills with the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI, upgraded Mikoyan MiG-27 and MiG-21 'bis' fighters at the Jodhpur air base, 600 km west of New Delhi, for 10 days until 13 June.

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has been in advanced negotiations with Dassault to acquire 126 Rafales for the IAF's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement since 2012 but these talks recently stalled due to a resource crunch and the ongoing general election in India

 

[halloweene]

In fact, most of the preliminary work was done as HMDs was scheduled for F3 standard... So i guess it wasn't so costly to finalize it. The source is top ranked, but i'll cross it with another source.

 

[sancho]

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation. "I rest on the belief that, given the willingness of Indians to go fast.

Quiet telling that all he has left now is his belive, because he knows quiet well that all depends on UPA winning, otherwise things "can" change.

In fact, most of the preliminary work was done as HMDs was scheduled for F3 standard... So i guess it wasn't so costly to finalize it. The source is top ranked, but i'll cross it with another source.

That was done for the French forces, which selected the Gerfault HMS, but that was scrapped later, before a final integration was done, otherwise the helmet would already had been available for export customers.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Quiet telling that all he has left now is his belive, because he knows quiet well that all depends on UPA winning, otherwise things "can" change.

Sir, I know there is the possibility that the BJP/Modi will challenge the Rafale deal but I just don't see it happening. At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same. I've been doing more reading on Modi and defence modernisation is a major point for him and he is no idiot he is going to know to address the the declining SQD numbers and the obsolesce the Rafae deal that is literally only waiting for a signature is the way to go. The LCA is not going to be up to filling the numbers in the time and the FGFA is way way down the line.

Added to that despite allegation after allegation probe after probe has given the Rafale/MMRCA the all-clear again and again. There is next to nothing to question about this deal that would merit in its cancellation.


I'm actually quite confident that a lot of the deals the UPA/Antony has sat on- Arty, N-MRH, MMRCA etc for so long will now finally see some serious foreword momentum under a BJP/Modi govt.


@arp2041 what say you?