Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same.

That's more than enough to change the game, because reviewing things can be done with different priorities. We have seen that in the Brazilian competition, where the earlier government had the focus on political long term and industrial advantages, while the current government changed the priorities to an increased focus on costs too. That then naturally played against the Rafale, that was found to be the most capable / suitable fighter, based on technical standards, but had no chance to remain a viable choice, in a country with increasing economic and financial problems.

In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!
The other point is, that the EF consortium with it's powerful private industrial players and influencial European governments behind it, will have a complete new partner to push for. Antony was highly focused on a clean competion, without any political influence and he achived that. The MMRCA is maybe one of the very few competition, where even the vendors that lost out, had praised MoD and IAF for how the competition was done, even if they were unfortunate to be out.
IF BJP however review the competition and decides that more industrial and political points must have priorities, the EF will surely get a boost!
And as I said recently, even if you look at both fighters not only based on the competition results and offers, but include the delayed delivery, as well as the changes of both fighters with technical prospect in mind, things can change for the Rafale!

The original Rafale offer, of course included IRST (which than was still in production), HMS to fulfill the requirements, but also had the Damocles XF LDP on offer, which was meant to be available by 2016, not to mention that one of the crucial capabilities for the Rafale is the AASM.
When you look at the Rafale today and with a possible delivery by 2017/18, you will see that the IRST is not available anymore and fulfilling the requirements requires additional funds, funds that already are needed to integrate the HMS. The fact that the French went for a French specific F3R upgrade, rather than one that is orientend at increasing export customer demands, killed the Damocles XF and now give an alternative only by 2018. For India that means integrating the Litening is a must have, not only a would be nice to have, which again requires credible additional fundings. And to make it worse, they didn't tried to develop a more cost-effective AASM version, or focused on exports, but even allowed the UAE to integrate their own PGM, which basically kills AASM exports for Rafale as well. And when you see that even the French forces actually don't want additional AASMs (still didn't funded the AASM 1000, which might be one reason why it's lost in the Mirage upgrade against SPICE 2000), but also integrated the more cost-effective GBU 49 as the CAS weapon in mass, you have to see that the potential of the Rafale with AASM is clearly going down. If we don't order it now, we might not even get it at all anymore and we all know that IAF had issues with high costly, French bombs in limited numbers before, which doesn't play in favour for the AASM either. Here again, the Israelis might offer soon a far more capable and cost-effective alternative with the SPICE 250, but that obviously not only for the Rafale!

So a BJP that claims to aim on pushing indigenous developments (LCA), is pro foreign industry involvement on the Indian market (EF consortium + partnership in the consortium for India) and even a new technical review on the shortlisted fighters, would all work against the Rafale. Actually the real pro side currently seems to be the relations of BJP and Reliance, which might influcence the government for a higher workshare for them.

 

[arp2041]

Sir, I know there is the possibility that the BJP/Modi will challenge the Rafale deal but I just don't see it happening. At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same. I've been doing more reading on Modi and defence modernisation is a major point for him and he is no idiot he is going to know to address the the declining SQD numbers and the obsolesce the Rafae deal that is literally only waiting for a signature is the way to go. The LCA is not going to be up to filling the numbers in the time and the FGFA is way way down the line.

Added to that despite allegation after allegation probe after probe has given the Rafale/MMRCA the all-clear again and again. There is next to nothing to question about this deal that would merit in its cancellation.


I'm actually quite confident that a lot of the deals the UPA/Antony has sat on- Arty, N-MRH, MMRCA etc for so long will now finally see some serious foreword momentum under a BJP/Modi govt.


@arp2041 what say you?

BJP is not Congress, they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France. It was only UPA's idiocy that they scrapped the whole deal & changed it into a tender process & a never ending one. When it comes to defense, BJP esp. Modi will hear to what the Defense forces have to say, if it's Rafale so be it, They will NEVER cancel the process & jeopardize India's security.

 

[Sergi]

BJP is not Congress, they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France. It was only UPA's idiocy that they scrapped the whole deal & changed it into a tender process & a never ending one. When it comes to defense, BJP esp. Modi will hear to what the Defense forces have to say, if it's Rafale so be it, They will NEVER cancel the process & jeopardize India's security.

Couldnt agree more.
But fact remain if the benifts are not seen worth the money then there are other fast track options available.

 

[sancho]

BJP is not Congress

You might want to check their manifesto once again, especially on what they want to do about indigenous manufacturing.

they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France.

Viki is a pure disaster in terms of costs and delays did you forget that? Also there was never a deal done for Mirage, they only wanted to buy more Mirage fighters, but without a tender, they wouldn't be able to reduce the costs, let alone gain more benefits in technical or indistrial fields. The fact that we do tenders today is the sole reason, why we have so many options now, apart from Russia and France, which clearly benefits Indian defence procurements, since even the Russians had understand now, that they have to increase reliabilty of techs and operational costs, since a low unit cost alone isn't enough anymore!

They will NEVER cancel the process & jeopardize India's security.

Great, so we open up for more corruption in the defence procurements, since we give the forces (main cause of all the re-tenders) free hand to get even more bribes, if they know the BJP will not scrap anything.

Support for a party is one thing, blinding yourself from reality a different one and you should look at the things a bit more unbiased buddy!

 

[sancho]

But fact remain if the benifts are not seen worth the money then there are other fast track options available.

Fast tracking can be done by increase efficiency of the procurements! That starts with crating useful RFI's and RFP's that actually shows some differences, to shortlist certain products right before the trial. That is done by the forces and one of the main problems in Indian defence procurement!!!
Take the MMRCA as an example, we had light class single engine contender like the Gripen, against nearly heavy class twin engine contenders like the F18SH. We had paper planes like the Mig, the Gripen, or the EF T3B, against proven and available fighters. Vendors that offered high critical techs and customizations, against US fighters and the Mig with next to no advantage on technical terms...and to make it worse, they let all 6 went to the trials, although they knew that several of them wouldn't fit the requirements (G-Limit and TWR couldn't be met by the SH and the Gripen, the Mig and the Gripen were not available with credible prototypes for the trials, the timeframe of the AESA developments of the Mig, or EF didn't fit the RFP either. So why were they cleared for the trials at all, which only delayed things?
And we see the same problems in many competitions too, IN's MRMR aircraft, where light to heavy, or prop against jet engined aircraft could be offered, but where not even the vendors are clear about IN's intentions. IA's self propelled howitzer, where nobody really knows if wheeled and tracked vehicles are needed, or if it could be even heavy tracked vehicles based on the Arjun...
So when you want to make things more efficient, you have to start at the roots and that are the forces!

 

[Sergi]

Fast tracking can be done by increase efficiency of the procurements! That starts with crating useful RFI's and RFP's that actually shows some differences, to shortlist certain products right before the trial. That is done by the forces and one of the main problems in Indian defence procurement!!!
Take the MMMRCA as an example, we had light class single engine contender like the Gripen, against nearly heavy class twin engine contenders like the F18SH. We had paper planes like the Mig, the Gripen, or the EF T3B, against proven and available fighters. Vendors that offered high critical techs and customizations, against US fighters and the Mig with next to no advantage on technical terms...and to make it worse, they let all 6 went to the trials, although they knew that several of them wouldn't fit the requirements (G-Limit and TWR couldn't be met by the SH and the Gripen, the Mig and the Gripen were not available with credible prototypes for the trials, the timeframe of the AESA developments of the Mig, or EF didn't fit the RFP either. So why were they cleared for the trials at all, which only delayed things?
And we see the same problems in many competitions too, IN's MRMR aircraft, where light to heavy, or prop against jet engined aircraft could be offered, but where not even the vendors are clear about IN's intentions. IA's self propelled howitzer, where nobody really knows if wheeled and tracked vehicles are needed, or if it could be even heavy tracked vehicles based on the Arjun...
So when you want to make things more efficient, you have to start at the roots and that are the forces!

To avoid single vender situation !!!
You eliminated every other fighter keeping DR sole option. Thats no no in Indian tender process. Means cancelation

And the talked reforms might be for situations like that

 

[sancho]

To avoid single vender situation !!!
You eliminated every other fighter keeping DR sole option

I didn't, since I said they have to get a clear idea about their prioirites first. If the G-limit and TWR were clear requirements, only the F18SH and the Gripen would be out, leaving 4 different fighters for the trials and even if you take out the Mig as well, for not providing a real prototype to the trials, you still would have 3 fighters that meet the technical requirements for performance and can be tested in the trials. So only half of the time for evaluation and testing of the fighters, by a simple improvement of the procedure to more efficiency!
Same goes for the MRMR, if the requirement is prop engined, half of the currently estimated options would be out, making the evaluation easier and faster.
LDP competition, make clear if you want an helicopter landing deck, or just a helicopter landing spot and again, the options are far clear...

 

[assassin123]

amazing rafale cockpit videos

 

[DacterSaab]

The LITENING G4 has already won this competition for LDPs for the MKI, MIG-29UPG and Jags to join the existing stock of G2s and G3s that are said to be converted to G4 standard as part of a separate deal:

Well I hoped G4 won so that's good news although I didn't believe US would share technology. But I don't understand what's the problem with 2052 for LCA? Why aren't they allowing us to get 'em?

SP basically reported that there is interest of the Litening, but there is no official confirmation so far that the Israeli pod won and more over for what fighters, we have to wait a bit more I guess.

What's the problem the report clearly states that G4 is chosen?

An "indication" that the Litening is selected, from the manufacturer, is not an official confirmation and doesn't tell us more about the aimed platforms either.

Boy I'm confused now, I think I need to lay of the weed a bit.

they just have to do it from the start and that certain data of them will be diverted for at least theoretical evaluation.

A few pages back weren't you guys talking about French Air Force testing 2 different HMDS for Rafale one was Topsight and I'm not sure about the other one but they found the other one to be better than topsight.
So if they have already tested it on the platform why would they need to "do it from the start"?

They might be more influenced by a possible decision of the UAE and the support of Saudi Arabia for the EF, than that we select a Rafale with Israeli features, that they can't get anyway.

I agree

Self funded SATCOM would make sense, since it's clear that the French forces will need this feature soon too,

Will IAF Rafales get this feature if yes will they use French satellites or our own?

Quiet telling that all he has left now is his belive, because he knows quiet well that all depends on UPA winning, otherwise things "can" change.

I doubt even NDA will have a problem with the deal especially since the French would still be willing to do business and IAF would specifically push for this aircraft only. Worst they'd do is delay it a couple of months by probing it.
Although I must say if the 'Third Front" leads we should all expect to see MMRCA cancelled and lots of LCA probably even an MCA (2 engine 4+gen fighter based on LCA).

which selected the Gerfault HMS

Thank you thats what I was talking about a few lines up.

Sir, I know there is the possibility that the BJP/Modi will challenge the Rafale deal but I just don't see it happening. At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same.

I agree

I've been doing more reading on Modi and defence modernisation is a major point for him and he is no idiot he is going to know to address the the declining SQD numbers and the obsolesce the Rafae deal that is literally only waiting for a signature is the way to go

I haven't done any reading on but know him very well from back in my days in Ahmedabad/Gandhinagar.

Added to that despite allegation after allegation probe after probe has given the Rafale/MMRCA the all-clear again and again. There is next to nothing to question about this deal that would merit in its cancellation.

Unless UPA leaders get a heavy bribe from Obama then some false evidence can be produced that gets detected during an innocent probe and no more MMRCA instead we're purchasing 10.5 squadrons of JSF

I'm actually quite confident that a lot of the deals the UPA/Antony has sat on- Arty, N-MRH, MMRCA etc for so long will now finally see some serious foreword momentum under a BJP/Modi govt.

As they say 'umeed pe duniya tiki hai' = The world is standing on top of hope

That's more than enough to change the game, because reviewing things can be done with different priorities. We have seen that in the Brazilian competition, where the earlier government had the focus on political long term and industrial advantages, while the current government changed the priorities to an increased focus on costs too. That then naturally played against the Rafale, that was found to be the most capable / suitable fighter, based on technical standards, but had no chance to remain a viable choice, in a country with increasing economic and financial problems.

Ya but does Brazil have heavily armed neighbors with credible international support that are ready to threaten it's territorial integrity at the first hint of weakness?
btw do you know the last time tensions with China heightened recently the no. of MKIs taking off at 1 time from Trishul AFB was straight away tripled?

In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!

NDA won't do that but Third-front surely will.

In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!
The other point is, that the EF consortium with it's powerful private industrial players and influencial European governments behind it, will have a complete new partner to push for. Antony was highly focused on a clean competion, without any political influence and he achived that. The MMRCA is maybe one of the very few competition, where even the vendors that lost out, had praised MoD and IAF for how the competition was done, even if they were unfortunate to be out.
IF BJP however review the competition and decides that more industrial and political points must have priorities, the EF will surely get a boost!
And as I said recently, even if you look at both fighters not only based on the competition results and offers, but include the delayed delivery, as well as the changes of both fighters with technical prospect in mind, things can change for the Rafale!

If that scenario does arise then MMRCA will be scrapped and we're gonna end up with JSF cause NDA will surely prefer US over EU.

When you look at the Rafale today and with a possible delivery by 2017/18,

You do know that all 18 aircraft are stipulated to be delivered within 36 months of signing the deal? I mean your right about us having to pay more due to integrate capabilities we want but I doubt there's hardly any other aircraft out-there that can give us our required capabilities capabilities without need for customization.
And while we're on the subject could some confirm if US gave all clear to the ARMs that needed to come for there or have French found an alternative?

BJP is not Congress, they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France.

They also did a few stupidities like making the Pokhran-test, public knowledge (I mean u don't just shout 'hey I've got a couple of Aces in my hand' at a card-game, instead u just silently keep them and use them when you need em). The embargoes that followed almost jeopardized the LCA among other things.

(G-Limit and TWR couldn't be met by the SH and the Gripen, the Mig and the Gripen were not available with credible prototypes for the trials, the timeframe of the AESA developments of the Mig, or EF didn't fit the RFP either. So why were they cleared for the trials at all, which only delayed things?

No Competitor in MMRCA met all the requirements only US-aircraft had AESA available and we were interested in neither of the 2.

LDP competition, make clear if you want an helicopter landing deck, or just a helicopter landing spot and again, the options are far clear...

U mean LDP or LPD?

 

[sancho]

Well I hoped G4 won so that's good news although I didn't believe US would share technology. But I don't understand what's the problem with 2052 for LCA? Why aren't they allowing us to get 'em?

Because they don't share their high techs and AESA radar techs are the highest techs besides engine techs today.

What's the problem the report clearly states that G4 is chosen?

Nope, it says that the manufacturer is indicating a win, but neither is there an official statement from the Indian government / IAF, nor is it clear for which fighters these LDPs were procured. Without these confirmations, Rafale can still come with PDL NG at the end, although I pridicted the Litening from the start.

I doubt even NDA will have a problem with the deal

It was them that started several investigations based on baseless allegations against the Rafale / Dassault, so there is an issue, but that might had been based on political reasons during election time, we will have to wait and see.

If that scenario does arise then MMRCA will be scrapped and we're gonna end up with JSF cause NDA will surely prefer US over EU.

And you think the US will allow a license production of their latest fighter that they didn't even allowed to their closest allies and that to a BJP government, although they had closer relations to the UPA government?

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

And while we're on the subject could some confirm if US gave all clear to the ARMs that needed to come for there or have French found an alternative?

There were only media reports from the US and Russia that India wanted to add a ARM, but nothing official nor was that part of the RFP as far as we know. Rafale (and most air forces in future) does SEAD with PGMs from stand off ranges, by attacking not only the radar like it was done in the past with ARMs but attacking the whole system including the SAMs itself. Here again, the addition of a more capable PGM like SPICE 250 / 1000 would be more beneficiary for SEAD than a ARM.

No Competitor in MMRCA met all the requirements only US-aircraft had AESA available and we were interested in neither of the 2.

That's not correct, only the US had AESA in operational service, but Rafale had a ready developed AESA available, while the others had tech demo AESA's more or less too. The requirement however was that you have to be able tp provide an operational AESA by 2015/16, which Rafale already fulfills.

U mean LDP or LPD?

No the amphibious vessel, because they have made the RFP so open that anything could fit and that delays decisions too.

 

[sancho]

Crossposting from IDF, to remaind what support the BJP gave Rafale and Dassault through the years:

May 11, 2011
...Subramanian Swamy has now apparently trained his ire at the IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter deal.

Swamy, officially leader of the Janata Party, but best known for years as a voluble and dogged government baiter on all matters graft, says he has written to Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh making some very dramatic allegations. The letter (full text in image above) was written on April 29, two days after the dramatic M-MRCA elimination. Like all his letters, this one says that it draws on "inside information" from within the government. Let's get to the contents:

Swamy writes: "My sources indicate that the pre-determined decision to favour the French aircraft [Dassault's Rafale] was the outcome of several conversations between the wife of French President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi."

Livefist: Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal for Rafale

Dec, 2013

...Senior leader Yashwant Sinha had questioned the Defence Ministry's move to have "life cycle cost" clause in tenders for military hardware.

The Defence Ministry is expected to review the process of determining the lowest bidder in the multi-billion dollar deal after the conclusion of commercial negotiations, sources said here.

Combat aircraft deal: Defence Ministry likely to review tender process - The Economic Times

27 February 2014

...
BJP leader Subramanian Swamy on Wednesday urged Defence Minister AK Antony to put the purchase proceedings of Dassault Rafale fighter jets on hold, in the wake of arrest of the company chief in France for bribery charges.

In his letter to Antony, Swamy said the Ministry should seek the full details from France on the arrest of Serge Dassault, the head of the company which was selected to deliver 126 fighter jets to Indian Air Force.

Halt purchase of Dassault jets, Swamy urges Antony

 

[DacterSaab]

Nope, it says that the manufacturer is indicating a win, but neither is there an official statement from the Indian government / IAF, nor is it clear for which fighters these LDPs were procured. Without these confirmations, Rafale can still come with PDL NG at the end, although I pridicted the Litening from the start.

Brother, don't you think 150 LDPs is not a large enough order that all details come in media circles. I mean do we really know every LDP, other targeting/reconnaissance pod, AAM, ASM, AShM, PGM and LGB currently in service with IAF and on which fighters it's compatible or how many we possess?

And you think the US will allow a license production of their latest fighter that they didn't even allowed to their closest allies and that to a BJP government, although they had closer relations to the UPA government?

And you think BJP government would give a damn about license producing? especially when they have a very good explanation for forgoing license production (It is USAF's latest fighter), also it's easily justifiable they can call it a better fighter, say it gives AF more capabilities, at the same time it provides country with special favors from the USA in case of conflict against PRC etc,etc. And I'd chop of my right hand if a Modi led administration goes for EADS nations over USA (lifelong dream of 8 out of 10 Gujaratis is to somehow go to US and spend their life there either legally or illegally).
And you said it yourself different govt. may have different priorities. They might not think License production is important at all instead wanting to go for stealth and I'm sure US will allow some minor components to be produced here if we order potentially ~200 jets. Also Washington has made it very clear that they are willing to do business with BJP govt and that they are willing to provide us with JSF.

That's not correct, only the US had AESA in operational service, but Rafale had a ready developed AESA available, while the others had tech demo AESA's more or less too. The requirement however was that you have to be able tp provide an operational AESA by 2015/16, which Rafale already fulfills.

If that was the requirement why was EFT shortlisted cause at the time of shortlisting it was pretty clear that CAPTOR-E would not be operational anywhere near 2015/16?
Yes in the beginning only US fighters had operational AESAs. French had probably started developing but RBE2AA wasn't operational until somewhere around the time when Rafale was shortlisted for MMRCA. Both Zhuk AE for Fulcrum and CAPTOR-E for EFT would not be operational by the time you suggest was in requirement.
According to what I've read the requirement was to demonstrate in a Lab that they were capable of developing AESA and you might remember that this was the ground on which Gripen NG was dismissed.

No the amphibious vessel, because they have made the RFP so open that anything could fit and that delays decisions too.

yeah thats true.

Crossposting from IDF, to remaind what support the BJP gave Rafale and Dassault through the years:

yeah but that's strictly business nothing personnel.

 

[sancho]

Brother, don't you think 150 LDPs is not a large enough order that all details come in media circles.

Procurements has to be announced by the MoD to a certain extend too, the recent procurement of SPICE bomb kits were too, so I don't think that is an issue. Besides, that if there would be something official, we would have seen far more reports about it, not only the inteviews with the manufacturer at AI.

They might not think License production is important at all

Which would be completely stupid! Our industry is so far behind everybody, we need licence productions, ToT and offsets in every possible way to improve them and that of critical techs, not minor airframe parts. So no, any US fighter without licence production of critical parts is a no go.

If that was the requirement why was EFT shortlisted cause at the time of shortlisting it was pretty clear that CAPTOR-E would not be operational anywhere near 2015/16?

Actually it wasn't clear, but predictable. IF we had chosen EF, they would have funded and started the final development earlier and therefor the AESA "could" be ready in time, but I also had criticized that before.
On the other side, you have to look at the whole picture and that includes industrial benefits, flight performance or possible weapon packages too and the EF was possibly first in indistrial and flight performance terms, while also offering the best cruise missiles next to Rafale. And at the end exactly these points might had been cruicial for the shortlisting.

Yes in the beginning only US fighters had operational AESAs. French had probably started developing but RBE2AA wasn't operational until somewhere around the time when Rafale was shortlisted for MMRCA. Both Zhuk AE for Fulcrum and CAPTOR-E for EFT would not be operation by the time you suggest was in requirement.
According to what I've read the requirement was to demonstrate in a Lab that they were capable of developing AESA and you might remember that this was the ground on which Gripen NG was dismissed.

They don't had to have an operational AESA, only one to test "on a fighter" and all vendors provided that. Rafales AESA was not operation, but except of the US once, the only one that was fully developed. The others were hardly in tech demonstrator stage and could be evaluated, but with the risk of changes till the serial production. The Gripen NG came to India with AESA as well, but 1 month too late and with older Gripens making the bulk of the trials, which alone would had been a reason for me, to not approve them to the trials at all. We wasted a lot of time there!

yeah but that's strictly business nothing personnel.

Lets see how that plays out now when they are in power and when the EF consortium, German and British government will try to re-convince them.

 

[atlssa]

Lets see how that plays out now when they are in power and when the EF consortium, German and British government will try to re-convince them.

Hi sancho! Whats up?!
I've been following your comments for such long time and I agree with your point of view. What do you think will be the government decision?

 

[sancho]

Hi sancho! Whats up?!
I've been following your comments for such long time and I agree with your point of view. What do you think will be the government decision?

Hi, I think it's pretty open at the moment and can even result in a re-evaluation like it was the case in your country after the government change. For India it can look like this:

1) BJP (and some push from Reliance) want to fix Rafale deal and focus on that
2) BJP want to re-evaluate the shortlisting (pushed by the EF consortium and partner countries, possibly even by the US and Israel in support of the UK/GER) and want to take an own decision, based on own priorities => MMRCA decision gets delayed with all chances for the EF again
3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA


With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!