Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[FC-20]

sir, duhastmish

udhan khotala


quite amazing rafale out without trials amazing, wat standards is IAF looking for

 

[duhastmish]

UMMM finally offical - news is out - we got the reason why - we are not goign for rafael - as goig nby BAE history and f/a deal from Our trust worthy american friends.

 

[sancho]

France firm out of $10 bn fighter deal with India

I have collated some info frm various sources....srill the reason is not clear.

"Rafale proponents previously let known their disappointment that an exhaustive matrix table had been laid out based on a basic minimum performance in the request for proposals, and that there were no bonus points on over-compliance."....Indian Rafale Out, MMRCA Trials by August | AVIATION WEEK

"Though reasons for rejecting Rafale was not revealed, sources indicated that the high cost of the aircraft was one of the factors. "The reasons would be officially communicated to the company," .....DNA: India: French 'Rafale' aircraft out of India's MMRCA race

"There were some shortcomings (in the Dassault bid)," the official said. "The other contenders are still in the race," the official said, without elaborating.....2nd UPDATE: India Rejects Dassault Aviation's Combat Jet Bid

"(Dassault's) Rafale did not meet the usual requirements," the Indian defence ministry spokesman said.

"So far, Rafale International has received no information from official Indian sources on this matter," a Dassault spokesman said. "French officials are inquiring with Indian authorities in order to get additional information about it."...http://ibnlive.in.com/news/france-firm-out-of-10-bn-fighter-deal-with-india/90441-3.html

The high cost of the fighter alone can't be a reason, otherwise EF which is more, or comparable expensive would be out too. Also the fact that Dassault still is not informed officially is interesting, maybe that all is just a wake-up call for them to do more if they want to win.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/04/livefist-column-why-rafale-goes-down.html

 

[gromell]

except engine performance, i don't see a single shortcoming in the French beauty. Aerodynamically I find it superior then any other delta wing platform right at this moment. The objective of the delta wing design is to make it highly agile, sacrificing some stability or giving it a relaxed stability while maintaining the limit. Taking all aerodynamics factors into consideration, Rafale is just near flawless 4.5 generation design, and better than Erofighter or Gripen. Also French avionics in it are supposedly very high tech. Indian pilots love flying dassault Mirage2000 and Rafale would have been perfect. I don't see any other reason than BAE bribing someone here

 

[Gabbar]

Editorial-dassault-aviations-rafale-push-got-a-bug

The French Dassault Aviation’s Rafale should be like any other so called 4th generation fighter aircraft. May be its two notches above its competitor, we do not know, we only saw some colored sales literature. May be it performed in Afghanistan. One thing for sure currently is that it does not has an export order. Dassault Aviation one great company. One may ask why such a wonderful aircraft and great company does not has an export order?

Ok, its not confirmed, it may be rumor mill or some dirty trick, even denied by Dassault that Rafale has been struck out of the Indian Air Force Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. Many reasons have been dished out.

As per the Indian Express report “The early elimination of the Rafale is also being attributed by insiders to its high cost and the failure to respond to technical queries. While commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter was considerably more than most competitors. Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.”

How true is this report, we do not know and vouch for it. But the part we want to highlight is ” Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.”

The first time we noted the lack of interest from Dassault Aviation representatives was in Aero India 2005. Any query directed to them about the Rafale or any other system was met with lethargy or arrogance. For example, why did you not bring Rafale? Answer: We did not think it was important. The same question was posed to them in Aero India 2007 and Aero India 2009. The replies varied from nothing to oh! we have an European show, just one demo aircraft, the cost did not justify it, its flying some where else etc etc. We do not want to speak for others, but, we are sure that others have felt the indifference too.

If some one in the Ministry or Air Force is miffed on the attitude of the representatives, its understandable.

Great products don’t sell by themselves. Even if they manage, certainly not with that attitude.

 

[sob]

I have a feeling that this is a pressure tactic to get the French to decide on the Mirage 2000 upgradation programme.

 

[Gabbar]

Dassault unaware of any decision to disqualify Rafale news

New Delhi: Unconfirmed reports suggest that the French fighter aircraft, Rafale, may have been disqualified from the Indian Air Force's Medium-range Multi-role Combat Aircraft tender, an approximately $11 billion deal for the supply of 126 aircraft. Dassault officials attending the Latin America Aerospace and Defense show at Rio de Janeiro have, however, denied receiving any information from Indian authorities in this regard.

"We have not had any information from Indian officials,'' said a Dassault spokesman.

In New Delhi, a senior defense ministry official was quoted as saying that Dassault had been unable to give full technical bid requirements. No details were provided.

Reports quote defence ministry (MoD) ''sources'' as saying that the Rafale fighter had 'fallen short' on 'several counts' listed in the GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) drawn up by IAF.

"It did not pass muster in the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the six contenders," a ''source'' was quoted as saying.

Dassault officials have stressed that there was no technical lacuna in their bid.

Should the Rafale be knocked out of the race for the MMRCA tender, there would now be five contestants left to bid for the contract –the American fighters F-16 (Fighting Falcon/Lockheed Martin), the F-18 (Super Hornet/Boeing), the Swedish representation Gripen JAS-39 (Saab), the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Russian MiG-35.

The Rafale is a high-priced fighter that has struggled to secure orders in various tenders around the world.

It may be mentioned that in the recent past Indian authorities seem to have made it a habit to announce the award of contracts only to backtrack in a jiffy. With India now having become one of the largest arms market in the world, all tenders are riven with ambiguities, rivalries, claims and counter-claims.

Sometime back a contract for the supply of helicopters to the Indian Army was awarded to Eurocopter only to be withdrawn on complaints filed by an American company, Bell Helicopter. This company itself subsequently withdrew from the tender on non-compliance issues, leaving the army without any helicopters or any immediate hopes of securing them.

Bell Helicopter, part of Textron, may itself be up for sale now as the company is unable to sustain business in the current business environment.

As for the French, they have a reputation for coming up with classy but pricy products. The Indian Air Force maintains a fleet of some 50-odd Mirage 2000 fighters and has expressed its happiness at their performance time and again. Yet a deal to upgrade these fighters is hanging fire for well over two years now as Dassault's fancy prices have failed to impress Indian authorities.

Meanwhile, air force and defence ministry officials are gearing up to launch field trials of the contending aircraft in approximately three months time. Reports indicate that there would be summer and winter trials in locations spread across various geographical areas. Bases in Rajasthan, Ladakh and Bangalore will host competing aircraft.

Commercial considerations will be taken up only after trials and evaluations are over. The earliest a selected MMRCA fighter can expect to enter service is 2013-14.

 

[RAZOR]

i seriously think its gripen-syndrome ....well at least something brought life to this dieing thread

 

[gromell]

BAE System's Dirty Dealings​

by Sasha Lilley, Special to CorpWatch
November 11th, 2003

It sounds like the stuff of pulp fiction: The UK's largest armaments producer running a £20 million ($33.4 million) slush fund to finance prostitutes, gambling trips, yachts, sports cars, and more for its most important clients the Saudi royal family and their intermediaries, greasing the wheels of the largest business deal in UK history. These are the accusations made last month by a former employee of weapons giant BAE Systems. And evidence has surfaced that members of the British government were aware of the bribe arrangement, but looked the other way.

BAE Systems, formerly known as British Aerospace, is one of the world's top arms producers. It manufactures warplanes, avionics, submarines, surface ships, radar, electronics, and guided weapons systems, generating annual sales of £12 billion ($20 billion) in 130 countries. The arms giant was formed as a nationalized British defense corporation in 1977, which was subsequently privatized in the early 1980s, and changed its name to BAE when British Aerospace merged with Marconi Electronic Systems in 1999.

BAE Systems' North American branch has an unusual special relationship with the Pentagon where it is treated as a domestic arms company. According to Ian Prichard of the British Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), "BAES North America appears to be virtually a separate company - even top UK executives are not privy to the more sensitive work carried out by 'their' company in the US."

For years the company has been accused of selling arms to impoverished and dictatorial regimes, polluting the environment, and has been dogged for years by allegations of corrupt dealings.

Now those allegations have exploded into the open. Revelations point to BAE's provision of enticements to the Saudis over a fifteen year period, starting in the late 1980s, using a front company Robert Lee International (RLI), to divert funds to the arms clients and their middlemen. Among other allegations, RLI procured prostitutes for visiting Saudi officials and bought houses for mistresses, while an internal BAE statement reportedly refers to "sex and bondage with Saudi princes". According to documents published by The Guardian, the British government's Serious Fraud Office (SFO) alerted the Ministry of Defense of the possible involvement of BAE's chairman Sir Richard Evans in the bribe scheme, but the Ministry of Defense did nothing.

BAE Systems' chief executive Mike Turner didn't deny the slush fund charges. At a press conference following the revelations, he stated, "They are old allegations and they are old hat. They are history." Turner added, "Everything we do is legal and that is all I am prepared to say. Whatever the law is, we are legal."

Al-Yamamah
The slush fund allegations are tied to the biggest export agreement in British history - the Al-Yamamah (The Dove) arms deals that the British government signed with the Saudi royal family. BAE, then known as British Aerospace, was to sell the Saudis 72 Tornado and 30 Hawk advanced fighter-bombers along with other tranches of military hardware.

In an unusual barter arrangement between the two governments, the Saudis were to purchase the armaments in payments of oil, over an unspecified period of time. Over the last two and a half decades, the deals have amounted to the sale of 96 Tornado Fighters and more than 100 Hawk jets and other training aircraft totaling at least £20 billion ($33.4 billion), with BAE taking in an estimated £1.5 billion a year. BAE is currently in negotiations with the Saudis for a further extension of the Al-Yamamah deal.

The first Al-Yamamah deal was signed in 1986, when the Saudis' main armaments supplier, the United States, was blocked from selling arms to their longtime ally by an historic Congressional vote. The House of Saud turned to British weapons manufacturers instead. The Saudis were happy to reduce their dependence on the US, while the UK saw the petrodollar-rich Saudis as a long term bonanza. A second deal between the two governments was signed in 1988. Some analysts believe that Al-Yamamah kept BAE afloat through the 1990s when the company was facing financial difficulties.

Rotten from the Beginning
While armaments transactions are known to be fraught with bribery, British journalist and arms trade opponent Gideon Burrows states that Al-Yamamah "may be the world's most corrupt deal". And while the scandal around allegations of the BAE slush fund are particularly lurid, accusations of corruption date back to the creation of Al-Yamamah I and II, as they've come to be known.

According to former CIA operative Robert Baer much of the money that BAE registered as earnings from Al-Yamamah was earmarked from its inception for kickbacks to members of the Saudi royal family and other intermediaries. "[Al-Yamamah] was a huge commission-generating machine. British Aerospace overcharged for its hardware and spare parts, with the difference going to commissions."

The Saudis are not the only ones who may have profited from Al-Yamamah kickbacks. In 1994 MP Tam Dalyell accused the son of then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher of receiving a £12 million commission from the Al-Yamamah deal, but the government declined to investigate the charges against Mark Thatcher. Less fortunate was British Defense Procurement Minister Jonathan Aiken who played a key role in setting up Al-Yamamah II. He was imprisoned in 1993 for letting the Saudis pick up his tab at the Paris Ritz.

The British government and BAE have been criticized from the start by arms watchdog groups for selling weapons to a despotic, theocratic regime. Amnesty International characterizes Saudi Arabia, the world's top arms buyer, as a major violator of human rights: "Summary, unfair and secret trials are the norm in Saudi Arabia and torture is a common practice to extract confessions from suspects. Defendants facing capital charge are invariably convicted after trials which lack the most basic standards of fairness." A 1995 Channel 4 "Dispatches" documentary revealed that BAE tried to sell electric shock batons to Saudi Arabia two years earlier, which could be used for the torture of prisoners.

Hawk Jets
If the current allegations of the Saudi slush fund weren't bad enough, BAE is in the center of another storm of controversy. This summer, BAE finally clinched a highly contentious deal to sell 66 Hawk jets to India - for which the poverty-stricken nation paid £1billion ($1.7 billion).

The agreement, which threatened to fall through a number of times, was helped along by the intervention of the British government. In 2002, in the midst of heightened tensions between India and Pakistan over Kashmir that threatened to turn into a nuclear war, British Prime Minister Tony Blair visited the two countries ostensibly on a peace-making mission. However, as the Indian media revealed, he used the visit as an opportunity to promote the sale of BAE Systems Hawk jets, as did his Foreign Secretary Geoff Hoon later in the year.

"The same time that the prime minister and the foreign secretary have been over in India trying to play a role as a peace broker in the Kashmir crisis, we've also in effect been acting as an arms broker," says Andy McLean of the London-based think tank Saferworld. "And the government has been directly pushing the sale of jets which we will know could be used both directly in Kashmir and also will be used to train Indian pilots to fly much more deadly fighter jets which could also be used in Kashmir and potentially which could be used to carry nuclear weapons."

McLean says that BAE Systems' dealings in India are not an anomaly. "The Hawk jet [has] almost become synonymous in the UK with scandal in the arms trade," he says. "It was Hawk jets that were licensed for export to Indonesia and were then found after years of protestation from human rights groups to have been used to intimate the civilian population in East Timor. This was denied by the government for years but was then actually admitted by the Indonesian armed forces."

The British government also allowed export licenses for the sale of BAE's Hawk jets to Zimbabwe, which is was later forced to revoke Zimbabwe became involved in the conflict in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. BAE has targeted other poor African countries for arms sales. "It was also British Aerospace which manufactured the military radar system that has cost the Tanzania people £28 million ($46.8 million) that could have been used on providing fresh water and vaccinations for the population there," says McLean.
Government Role
Business between BAE and the governments of impoverished countries like Indonesia, Zaire and Tanzania would not be possible without the sanctioning of the British state, which must issue export licenses for such sales to go through. Fortunately for BAE, the UK government - the world's second largest arms exporter - is a most faithful ally, promoting BAE's interests through the Ministry of Defense's Defense Export Sales Organisation (DESO), whose role is to encourage the sale of British weapons abroad.

BAE and other arms companies get further assistance from the British government's Export Credit Guarantee Department (ECGD) which underwrites the transactions between the weapons companies and potentially unreliable buyers, loaning out UK tax payers' money for the foreign purchase of British-made arms. BAE has received more Export Credit Guarantees than any other UK company in recent times.

The Blair Labour government has proved itself as steadfast a supporter of the arms industry in general, and BAE in particular, like the governments of its Conservative predecessors Margaret Thatcher and John Major - The Observer refers to BAE chairman Sir Richard Evans as "one of the few businessmen who can see Blair on request". Before its ascendancy to power, the Labour government promised to publish the conclusions of a 1992 investigation into charges of corruption by BAE in the Al-Yamamah deals by the National Audit Office (NAO). However, the audit has never been published.

The Blair government has defended its backing of the arms industry by claiming that companies like BAE Systems play a central role in the economy. Arms critic Richard Bingley and former member of CAAT disagrees. "On the face of it, the arms export business is reckoned to be quite lucrative, its worth about £5 billion to the UK Exchequer every year. However, when you take away overheads and then also look at the fact that the arms trade is subsidized by about £1 billion per year by the UK Exchequer, actually you begin to see there's no profit line by exporting arms. So literally, it is at best an industry that pays for itself."

Under Fire
Despite the British government's ongoing support for BAE, pressure is mounting on the armaments giant. Adding to the embarrassment of the slush fund scandal, activist groups like the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA), Oxfam, Amnesty International, and Friends of the Earth UK are putting the spotlight on BAE's role in perpetuating armed conflicts around the world.

Earlier this year, Friends of the Earth UK launched a campaign against BAE's production of depleted uranium shells which have been used by British soldiers in Iraq. Hannah Griffiths, corporate campaigner at Friends of the Earth UK, said: "We want the directors of companies like BAE to take their duties to communities and the environment as seriously as they do their duties to the company's bottom line".

The Campaign Against Arms Trade has also been targeting BAE with protests at 40 sites all across England, Wales and Scotland that belong to BAE or its subsidiaries, accusing BAE of fanning the flames of war.

Meanwhile BAE has also targeted CAAT. The Sunday Times (London) revealed in September that BAE paid a private intelligence firm £120,000 a year to infiltrate and spy on CAAT over a four year period in the 1990s. The head of the firm told BAE that she had a database containing more than 148,000 names and addresses of arms trade and peace activists, environmentalists and union members. CAAT issued a statement denouncing BAE's actions. "The alleged theft of the supporter database, by copying it, is illegal and entirely unacceptable. CAAT is considering how to pursue the allegation," it said.

A New Al-Yamamah
In spite of the recent bribery revelations, BAE is intent on pressing ahead with a new Al-Yamamah deal with the Saudis, according to a statement by the Swiss investment bank UBS.

In the last decade and a half the Saudis have had difficulties holding up their end of the arms-for-oil bargain, as the price of petroleum has fluctuated and the Saudi domestic debt has continued to mushroom, while arms purchases gobble up a third of the national budget. However, recently Saudi Arabia's fortunes have been buoyed by higher oil prices, while their relationship with their other main weapons supplier has gotten chillier. "Now that the US is on the outs with the Saudis and pulling US troops out of Saudi Arabia, the Saudis are looking more to Europe for their defense needs," says analyst Frida Berrigan of the Arms Trade Resource Center in New York.

The new agreement would be to upgrade 85 Tornado fighter planes that were purchased in an earlier Al-Yamamah deal. If it goes through it would be a boost to the beleaguered weapons giant, which has been having difficulties arranging a merger with a US defense company. But it would be anything but a boon for British taxpayers, who would continue to subsidize BAE, or the Saudi populace, who would see none of the kickbacks flowing to the House of Saud -- just the further perpetuation of the royal family's corrupt rule.

Listen to the audio version of this story on Free Speech Radio News

Sasha Lilley is Research Coordinator/ Editor at CorpWatch and a Producer for Pacifica Radio's KPFA.

 

[gromell]

BAE has bad record of unfair backstage dealings ...

 

[LCA]

Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition-20/04/2009-Singapore-Flight International

The Indian Air Force has denied reports that the Dassault Rafale has been
eliminated from the country’s medium multi-role combat aircraft competition.

“We have not ruled anyone out yet in the MMRCA competition,” says an IAF spokesman, who confirmed that the service is responsible for evaluating the contenders. “All of the tests have not been completed. The technical evaluations are only just over and we are scheduled to begin the flight tests next month. Everyone is still in the competition.”

Last week, several Indian newspapers reported that the Rafale was eliminated after failing the technical evaluation. When contacted, Dassault said that it is waiting for information from the French embassy in India as negotiations are conducted on a government-to-government basis. The embassy had no comment.

The aircraft was not brought to the Aero India 2009 show in Bangalore in February, leading to speculation that it was in danger of being eliminated from the competition. A senior French official, however, defended the no-show at the time saying that the country’s aircraft were required for NATO operations in Afghanistan.

Rex Features/Sipa Press

Apart from the Rafale (above), the other five contenders for the $10-12 billion contract are the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35, and Saab Gripen. India is scheduled to begin hot weather trials in May, and the aircraft will be tested in cold weather and humid conditions later in the year.

This is not the first time that the Indian media have reported that an aircraft has been eliminated from this closely watched competition. Early this year, it was reported that the Gripen had been knocked out but this was later proven untrue.

India is seeking 126 aircraft in the competition, of which 18 will be bought in fly-away condition and 108 license produced by Hindustan Aeronautics in the country. There is also an option for another 64 aircraft. The fighter chosen will replace the IAF’s RSK MiG-21s

 

[Moscow]

The Indian Air Force has denied reports that the Dassault Rafale has been eliminated from the country’s medium multi-role combat aircraft competition.
“We have not ruled anyone out yet in the MMRCA competition,” says an IAF spokesman, who confirmed that the service is responsible for evaluating the contenders. “All of the tests have not been completed. The technical evaluations are only just over and we are scheduled to begin the flight tests next month. Everyone is still in the competition.”
Last week, several Indian newspapers reported that the Rafale was eliminated after failing the technical evaluation. When contacted, Dassault said that it is waiting for information from the French embassy in India as negotiations are conducted on a government-to-government basis. The embassy had no comment.
The aircraft was not brought to the Aero India 2009 show in Bangalore in February, leading to speculation that it was in danger of being eliminated from the competition. A senior French official, however, defended the no-show at the time saying that the country’s aircraft were required for NATO operations in Afghanistan.


Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition-20/04/2009-Singapore-Flight International

 

[lilaspr]

Well, it appears that the reports of the French Fighter's demise have been exaggerated.

No clue as to what is going on there, or why.

Wasn't a shocker, the if French Rafael has been knocked off.

That's really unfortunate for the Rafale, because India was its last hope for a substantial foreign sale.

Rafale has better thrust/weight ratio and is more manouverable,smaller ,lighter and consumes less fuel and can carry more payload than f18 superhornet.

Standing are:

F-16. old reliable
F/A-18, reliable and powerful (good price)
Typhoon (too expensive without subsidies)
Mig-35 (MY PICK FOR INDIA if not Typhoon)
Grippen: Good price, adequate performance carries anti air missiles to wipe out any competition, its only competitor in high speed maneouvers, Rafaele, is out.

 

[Screaming Skull]

India to remain key customer of Russian combat aircrafts​

Tue, Apr 21, 2009

Moscow: India will remain the main purchaser of Russian-made combat aircraft for the next 15 years under existing and prospective contracts, a Russian think tank has said.

In its report titled "The Forecast for Combat Aircraft Deliveries to India", the Center for Analysis and Technologies outlined the prospects for Russian-Indian cooperation.

The report predicts that India will buy up to 90 Su-30 MKI fighters under existing contracts and may also purchase additional Su-30 or modernised MiG-29K.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum is also participating in the current $10.6-billion tender to supply 126 multirole fighters to the Indian Air Force.

Russian experts believe that the MiG-35 has an excellent chance of winning the tender because the Russian aircraft has superb performance characteristics and Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and military-technical cooperation.

In addition, Russia signed in March last year a contract with the Indian defence ministry to upgrade around 70 MiG-29 fighters, in service since the 1980s, and agreed to develop a fifth-generation fighter together with India.

India desperately needs to upgrade its fighter fleet, which includes Su-30MKI and MiG-29 fighters, but mainly consists of obsolete Russian MiG-21 models.

 

[Gabbar]

Rafale out of contest, diplomatic push by France
New Delhi:

Days after Dassault’s Rafale fighter was knocked off the $10-billion contract for providing combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force, French Ambassador Jérôme Bonnafont met senior Defence Ministry officials to enquire about the status of the deal.

It is learnt that the Ambassador met Defence Secretary Vijay Singh on Tuesday and talked about the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal among other things. Sources said Bonnafont inquired about ‘media reports’ that talked about the oust of the French fighter from the mega deal.

The Ambassador is believed to have been informed that the selection process for the contract was still on and it would take a few weeks before proceeding to the next stage.
However, sources in the ministry maintain that the French fighter would not make it to the next stage as it has not met the technical requirements set in the tender that was floated in 2007.
The tedious process for purchasing the 126 fighters to boost dipping force levels of the Indian Air Force (IAF) will now proceed to the next stage of flight trials where the aircraft will be tested in difficult weather conditions. Trials are expected to take place in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.



The summer trials are set to start within three months and the remaining five contenders will be sent letters to bring in their aircraft for evaluation shortly.



The IAF is keen to conclude the contract as fast as possible given that its fighter levels had come down to an all time low of 32 squadrons against an official level of 39.5 and a ‘desired’ level of 42 squadrons. The most optimistic predictions too suggest the final signing of the contract not before 2011, which would mean that the first fighters would land in India by 2013.