Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[luckyyy]

Basically, all important points!

1) Flight performance - Light single engine fighter vs. medium twin engine fighters (especially with more than A2A loads)

Flight performance of Gripen is as good as rafale/Eurofighter , more than A2A loads of rafale/Eurofighter will be compromise by the fuel weight to burn two engines then one........

2) Development status - Prototype stage vs. operational versions that needs no airframe changes and just minor upgrades

don't matter , Gripen NG is not a new platform but a improvment over Gripen C/D..

3) ToT - All major parts from, or under co-development with foreign countries only vs. all major parts developed on their own

but whatven Gripen developed of their own will be given on TOT , and under obligation only 50% offset required which they can fully fullfilled......even rafale/Eurofighter will only giving TOT to the extent of only under contrect obligation...

4) Offsets - Saab aviation is a rather small company and can offer only less offsets vs. EF consortium, or even Dassault

Saab aviation is a rather small company therefore will be easy to manage ...

5) Political, or strategic advantages - None vs. most powerful European countries and defense industries

i didn't see any Political, or strategic advantages with rafale/Eurofighter either..

On pure cost basis, the Gripen is of course a very good fighter, but we need more in different roles and the main aim must be to get as much side advantages, that Saab and Sweden simply can't offer.

then in all the cases GFripen is better placed that Rafale or Eurofighter coz Gripen offers the most side advantages....

 

[doctor_who]

Missing file no big deal: IAF chief - Yahoo! News

Missing file no big deal: IAF chief
IANS India Private LimitedBy Indo Asian News Service | IANS India Private Limited – Tue, Jan 11 6:22 PM IST

New Delhi, Jan 11 (IANS) Dismissing as 'nothing earth-shaking', the case of a missing file relating to the $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft, India's air chief said Tuesday this will not adversely impact on the contract, which is expected to be signed later this year.

'The file has got nothing earth-shaking and it has nothing to do with national security. It is not going to affect the deal,' the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, told reporters here on the sidelines of a defence function.

The file dealing with the offsets plans of the six foreign vendors vying for the deal went missing in the last week of December 2010 and was later found by the roadside on Khelgaon Marg in south Delhi.

The incident forced the defence ministry to order a probe into the role of two Indian Administrative Service officers of the defence production department for the lapse.

The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six fighter planes competing for the contract, described as the 'mother of all deals' because of its huge cost.

US majors Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are in the fray along with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for the high value deal.

The defence ministry has made it mandatory for the winning firm to reinvest 50 percent of the deal's value in the Indian defence industry. The missing file dealt with how the six firms would go about this.

'It was part of the (MMRCA) file dealing with some of the offsets proposals and there were three or four enclosures in the file, which dealt with some comments on the offsets proposals. So, it has nothing to do with the deal as such,' Naik contended.

He said two probes had been ordered into the incident, separately by the defence ministry and the IAF.

'The IAF inquiry is into whether correct procedures in handling confidential documents were followed or not. That inquiry is nearing completion. By and large, the procedures were followed. The file was handed over to the ministry nice and proper,' he noted.

On the ministry's enquiry, Naik said he was not aware of what was happening on that front.

The IAF needs the 126 jets to replace its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fighter aircraft that have earned the sobriquet 'flying coffins' due to the high rate of air crashes in the late 1990s and the early years of this century.

 

[SpArK]

High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership
​

Wednesday, 12 January 2011, 12:10 IST


Washington: U.S. Commerce Secretary Gary Locke vouched for U.S. fighter aircraft manufacturers saying that U.S. is a willing and capable defence partner. High Technology defense sales which included aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems were the key drive for the strategic partnership of India and U.S.


Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feb 6-11, told Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar at a meeting here Tuesday that the U.S. government views high technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the U.S.-India strategic partnership.

Two U.S. planes, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are competing with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the "mother of all deals".

Locke met Shankar to discuss bilateral trade and investment issues as he prepares to lead the high technology business development mission that will make stops in New Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore, the Commerce Department said.

Over 70 companies applied to participate in the U.S. mission in order to promote U.S. exports of high technology products and services in key economic sectors: civil-nuclear trade, defence and security, civil aviation, and information and communications technology.

U.S. exports of goods to India are up 15.2 percent through the first 10 months of 2010 and projected to surpass $19 billion for the entire year - an all-time high.

Advanced technologies, including aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems underpinned this growth, the department said.

Overall U.S. exports to India were $16.4 billion in 2009, making India the 17th largest export market. Exports to India through October 2010 reached approximately $16.1 billion.


High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership - General news

 

[doctor_who]

THROW A FEW cookies at indian minster overseas and they will do the bandar ke nach ka tamasha for you.

american are on hand denying any good deal to india through eropean chanel or atleast trying their best that india dont get it.

on the other hand they are giving their 30 yr old fighter with new paint job. in the name of high end technology.
what do these jackarse think of us ? are we still riding those bullcart to commute.

india need to stop being banana republic take a leaf from chinese book and prove their guts to americans.

 

[StormShadow]

High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership
​

Wednesday, 12 January 2011, 12:10 IST


Washington: U.S. Commerce Secretary Gary Locke vouched for U.S. fighter aircraft manufacturers saying that U.S. is a willing and capable defence partner. High Technology defense sales which included aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems were the key drive for the strategic partnership of India and U.S.


Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feb 6-11, told Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar at a meeting here Tuesday that the U.S. government views high technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the U.S.-India strategic partnership.

Two U.S. planes, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are competing with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the "mother of all deals".

Locke met Shankar to discuss bilateral trade and investment issues as he prepares to lead the high technology business development mission that will make stops in New Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore, the Commerce Department said.

Over 70 companies applied to participate in the U.S. mission in order to promote U.S. exports of high technology products and services in key economic sectors: civil-nuclear trade, defence and security, civil aviation, and information and communications technology.

U.S. exports of goods to India are up 15.2 percent through the first 10 months of 2010 and projected to surpass $19 billion for the entire year - an all-time high.

Advanced technologies, including aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems underpinned this growth, the department said.

Overall U.S. exports to India were $16.4 billion in 2009, making India the 17th largest export market. Exports to India through October 2010 reached approximately $16.1 billion.


High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership - General news

Ya ya we saw the "partnership" in P-8I deal. I guess the IAF wanted to test the americans if they'd be parting away with sensitive technologies. Luckily they didnot and the lashing out of ACM P V Naik after that is a clear indication of Indian displeasure over US birds.

 

[jha]

Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial



More than Gripen - Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial | India Defence


So no Taurus on offer for India so far, but more interesting Gripen C/D as a stop gap?
No approval needed for Swedish tech transfer, but what about the foreign parts?
The last point is very interesting too, because India was interested in Swedish fighters in the past as well, but these kind of restrictions of GoS were reported to be the reason not to procure them. If there are still such rules, the Gripen is obviously a no go for India, with it's neighborhood.

Taurus would have breached MTCR i guess with range of 500 Km..And its not completely off the table. If we choose Gripen and we request Taurus , i dont think they will not give us ..

The equations have considerably changed and if Gripen is chosen we may very well have a reliable partner who will help us in every possible way.

 

[sancho]

Taurus would have breached MTCR i guess with range of 500 Km..And its not completely off the table. If we choose Gripen and we request Taurus , i dont think they will not give us ..

The equations have considerably changed and if Gripen is chosen we may very well have a reliable partner who will help us in every possible way.

The same is the case for Storm Shadow / Scalp, that's why they developed a limited range version to sell it to foreign customers like Greece, or UAE and that can be done with Taurus as well. The problem is, that the GoS still has these foreign policiy rules, which have to be changed, before we possibly can get all their weapons and techs, or call them a reliable partner. We need their support during such conflicts, not in peace times, don't you think?
People often think about sanctions only, but there are also other laws and restrictions of the vendor countries, that could affect on us, be it Sweden in this case, or all the rules and restriction the US has. That's why Russia, France and Israel a often said to be the most reliable partners for India, because they have less restrictions and already proved it in the past.

 

[sancho]

Flight performance of Gripen is as good as rafale/Eurofighter , more than A2A loads of rafale/Eurofighter will be compromise by the fuel weight to burn two engines then one...

Based on? Just compare the TWR with any real load and you will see a big difference, especially with heavy A2G loads.

don't matter , Gripen NG is not a new platform but a improvment over Gripen C/D..

Again just your opinion, but in really that's simply wrong!
AESA radar is new and not an upgrade, IRST is new, engine is new, EWS is new, even the airframe has clear changes.
Bottom line, Gripen NG is based on Gripen, but is a major re-design with all new techs. Just like the F18SH is based on the F18 Hornet, but is an all new re-design with new techs.

but whatven Gripen developed of their own will be given on TOT

Which basically are airframe, some radar and some avionics only and that's pretty much the same that we have (we have our own data links, have our own EWS and radar developments and even design a similiar class fighter).
What we need instead is:

- a partner that can help us with AESA radar development, but Saab was not invited to the co-development competition
- a partner that can help us with Kaveri engine co-development, but Volvo was not evaluated for it and Snecma was chosen
- a partner that can help to re-design LCA for carrier operations, but Saab was never considered as an option and IN didn't even invited them for the naval carrier fighter competition (Saab requested to join later)

All these points tells us, where Swedish ToT / know how alone can help us, or not. I said it before, they would have been a great choice to team up for Gripen/LCA in the mid 80s, but can't offer us much anymore, because we improved ourselfs as well. They are still ahead, but we can benefit way more from bigger and more experienced companies / vendors / partners like EADS, Boeing, LM, Sukhoi, or even Dassault.

i didn't see any Political, or strategic advantages with rafale/Eurofighter either..

No further comment needed!

 

[AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer]

Ya ya we saw the "partnership" in P-8I deal. I guess the IAF wanted to test the americans if they'd be parting away with sensitive technologies. Luckily they didnot and the lashing out of ACM P V Naik after that is a clear indication of Indian displeasure over US birds.

Storm can you be more specific? What's wrong with P-8I deal? are they refused to share sensitive technology or down grading electronic equipment onboard same they did in C-130J deal? can you shade some light on it if possible?

regards
Jailer

 

[angeldemon_007]

are they refused to share sensitive technology

tHATS THE THING, they never shared any technology. Regarding removal of some features, i think 99% we won't get the same thing that US forces will get.

 

[PRACTICAL PATRIOT]

Storm can you be more specific? What's wrong with P-8I deal? are they refused to share sensitive technology or down grading electronic equipment onboard same they did in C-130J deal? can you shade some light on it if possible?

regards
Jailer

we are not signing cismoa so they are not giving us the communication system unless we sign it. but IAF said that we dont need their communication sysytem we will use our own system on p-8 so we dont have to sign cismoa, and this wont affect the capability of plane.

 

[StormShadow]

Storm can you be more specific? What's wrong with P-8I deal? are they refused to share sensitive technology or down grading electronic equipment onboard same they did in C-130J deal? can you shade some light on it if possible?

regards
Jailer

Yes bro...We are getting a watered down version of both P-8I and C-130J.
Here is a list of some of the things which we wont be getting..without which it is as good as nothing.

* AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) - Manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force

* KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) - Manufactured by Raytheon and administered by the US Air Force

* TACTERM / ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal - Administered by the US Air Force

* VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module - Administered by the US Air Force

* Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver's COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT is replaced with an RT that has no COMSEC/SINCGARS

livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/exclusive-no-cismoa-heres-what-theyre.html

 

[luckyyy]

What we need instead is:

- a partner that can help us with AESA radar development, but Saab was not invited to the co-development competition
- a partner that can help us with Kaveri engine co-development, but Volvo was not evaluated for it and Snecma was chosen
- a partner that can help to re-design LCA for carrier operations, but Saab was never considered as an option and IN didn't even invited them for the naval carrier fighter competition (Saab requested to join later)

these projects are seperate and are not associated with MMRCA deal...

 

[sancho]

these projects are seperate and are not associated with MMRCA deal...

Seperate projects, but of course linked with each other, because they are making use of MMRCA techs (AESA radars, engines), or of naval MMRCA versions.
The fact is, Sweden and their ToT can't help us much in any field we need help, so if we want to gain from Gripen ToT, it must be of the foreign parts, but that will be limited.
That's why ToT of EF, or Rafale is the most useful ToT, because we get full ToT of critical parts, of parts where we lack behind and need help and without restictions (Russia offers the same, but of techs that we mainly have, or will get through MKI, FGFA anyway).

This is also said in the Brasilian competition, where the evaluation reports found out, that Saab was leading in the ToT area, slightly before Dassault, with Boeing as the clear 3rd, but the President and the defense minister openly stated, that the ToT offer of Dassault is the best and inludes important parts.
I am sure the US fighters will fulfill the ammount requirements of ToT that is needed in MMRCA, or FX2 as well, but mainly from airframe, or in case of the F18 engine parts. Critical techs like the radar, or EWS instead will be limited and probably only assembled in India/Brasil, but produced in the US.

 

[SpArK]

EADS to Go on Spending Spree in 2011?






Louis Gallois, CEO of EADS, told a gathering of some 100 journalists today during the group's annual ceremony of “New Year Greetings” that the group wants a better balance between the Airbus civilian aircraft sector, which accounts for about two thirds of its business, and its others business units: Cassidian for defense and security; Astrium – which was hosting the gathering – for space, and Eurocopter for helicopters. “But the task is made difficult by the success of Airbus (which yesterday secured the largest aircraft order in commercial aviation industry from Indian low-cost carrier IndiGo for 180 aircraft), although of course I'm not complaining about this,” he smiled.


He stressed that in order to balance business “our company must dramatically increase its footprint in emerging countries and become a local citizen... there are skilled employees in these countries: we need them.” But he said that in order to sell in these countries “we need to have a partner there.” This statement combined with the fact that EADS holds net cash of about €10.3 billion which Chief Financial Officer Hans Peter Ring agreed needed to be spent, would seem to point to EADS going on a spending spree in 2011.



EADS to Go on Spending Spree in 2011?