Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[redpearl75]

Why can't IAF opt for upgrading it's Mig 29s to the 35 standards as they are anyway paying a lot for the SMT standard upgrade... Does it sound stupid...?

 

[SpArK]

Why can't IAF opt for upgrading it's Mig 29s to the 35 standards as they are anyway paying a lot for the SMT standard upgrade... Does it sound stupid...?

We will for sure after the MRCA drama gets over!!!

 

[redpearl75]

We will for sure after the MRCA drama gets over!!!

I don't think the IAF would be willing to pay then after the SMT upgrade as they are planning to replace the Fulcrums with the MCA in the pipeline but going for a 35 standard sounds more logical....

 

[mjnaushad]

I asked this question before but no one answered.....

Is there any supposed date at which this competition will end.....Any time frame....

 

[anathema]

I asked this question before but no one answered.....

Is there any supposed date at which this competition will end.....Any time frame....

July 2011 - is the date that IAF chief has put forward -- winner will be declared by then.

 

[rsingh]

I doubt a Cross b\w Eva green , Liv Tyler, Bellucci would't as breathtaking.

 

[sancho]

I looked at wiki again , it mention that it lake in A2G capabilities and maturing in that,,, but if till now there nothing ( " not even a single" as u say ) then it must go out,, i love both EF and Rafale
can u give any source which show " not even a single" ....

by the way ,, ur posts are informative always .. THANKS
my vote to Rafale ,,

You mean the part that they lost in Singapore because of very limited A2G capabilities and that they are improving them now right? And it is even true that they are improving, but the problem is, the integration and maturing of the EF is very slow. At the moment they are testing and integrating Paveway IV bombs and most likely will keep the Litening targeting pod (which the UK integrated alone so far, because they funded it) as you can see on the following pics:

A2G missile were only planed in later upgrade stages, because they are not needed now. All partners replaced A2A fighters with the early EFs and UK, ITA and GER still have the Tornado for the A2G role (ESP has F18s) and these are in service in Afghanistan now. That means for the partners it is no major problem now that EF lacks in A2G capabilities now, but for possible export countries like us, or in that time Singapore, it is a major disadvantage.
So to sell the EF, they have to speed up the upgrades and integration, which means their initial plans are getting confused and they have to redirect the funds for upgrades that where planed now, to upgrades that were planed later. They normally had planed the T2 till 2013, which would have inclouded some A2G missiles (Brimstone and cruise missiles), but without AESA radar they simply are not competitive on the market anymore. That is why they agreed on fielding Tranche 3 earlier and start AESA development now, to be ready in 2015. But as I said, everything goes very slow with so many partners, they still did not decided about what T3 will include. On the weapon side METEOR missile is clear, but A2G weapons? On the Techs side AESA is clear, but anything else are only rumors. There is talk about more thrust, or TVC, but the partners seems to look for an export customer to funds it. UK seems to want CFTs to increase the range and maybe upgrade of the EWS, but so far nobody knows who pays for this and when it will be ready.

That's why I said, on paper/wiki and somewhere in future when it is fully developed, the EF looks good and could be a good multi role fighter, but in that time India will have more capable MKIs, 5. gen Pak Fa / FGFA and so on. There is simply no need for us to pay so much and wait so long, if we have so many alternatives.

 

[sancho]

Why can't IAF opt for upgrading it's Mig 29s to the 35 standards as they are anyway paying a lot for the SMT standard upgrade... Does it sound stupid...?

SMT upgrade should be done till 2013, Mig stated that Mig 35 will only be ready from 2013 onwards. Also there are several structural changes on the airframes which makes it not possible to upgrade the older Mig 29s with these techs. AESA radar for example requirers a bigger nose and as far as I know the RD 33 MK engine doesn't fit that easy too.
INs Mig 29s instead should be upgraded later, because they are based on the same new aiframe.

 

[SpArK]

SMT upgrade should be done till 2013, Mig stated that Mig 35 will only be ready from 2013 onwards. Also there are several structural changes on the airframes which makes it not possible to upgrade the older Mig 29s with these techs. AESA radar for example requirers a bigger nose and as far as I know the RD 33 MK engine doesn't fit that easy too.
INs Mig 29s instead should be upgraded later, because they are based on the same new aiframe.

That actually helped to clear my doubt too.. I thought by the time MRCA drama is over and we would have straight head to MiG-35 standards..

Anyway lets hope IAF pulls something like that by the time IAC is ready.

 

[kish]

SMT upgrade should be done till 2013, Mig stated that Mig 35 will only be ready from 2013 onwards. Also there are several structural changes on the airframes which makes it not possible to upgrade the older Mig 29s with these techs. AESA radar for example requirers a bigger nose and as far as I know the RD 33 MK engine doesn't fit that easy too.
INs Mig 29s instead should be upgraded later, because they are based on the same new aiframe.

I dont think so . AESA radar can have 1000 +- transmit-receive module and there no can be increase or decrease according to need.

so nose size doesn't too much matters.


but AESA need more power then other because every module has its processer and it generate more heat and more energy require to cool and operate it. so about engine you are right and i think it's main problem with mki so that can not use su 35 radar
and same for iaf mig 29
correct me if wrong


one question ,,,,,, is there thread dedicated to radar only

 

[sancho]

That actually helped to clear my doubt too.. I thought by the time MRCA drama is over and we would have straight head to MiG-35 standards..

Anyway lets hope IAF pulls something like that by the time IAC is ready.

Hi Benny, actually I was pretty surprised about INs move to Mig 29K, but they had no real option of course, because it was a combined deal. But what still bothers me the most is, that even the additional order for IAC1 seems not to have further upgraded capabilities.
I mean it seems that they ordered the same Mig 29K/KUBs without Zhuk AE and TVC only, so we have to wait till the next upgrade (in 10 years possibly) to see Mig 35 capabilities on them.
Imo IN should have made a smaller order at the begining of 10 - 12 Mig 29 KUB with the actual config, for training and strike role. But the rest of the 45 fighters should have been already upgraded with AESA and TVC, because especially in the air defense role of the Ks, these capabilities would be very helpful.

I dont think so . AESA radar can have 1000 +- transmit-receive module and there no can be increase or decrease according to need.

so nose size doesn't too much matters.

It does, because it says how many T/R modules the radar can use and the more T/R modules the more range!
The early Zhuk AE had a diameter of 575mm and something around 750 T/R modules, but the Russians soon understands that this is not comparable with the performance of the western radars in MMRCA, that all will have 1000, or clearly more. That's why they now offers a bigger (some sources say 700mm) diameter and around 1000 modules, with the result that they now promise a radar range around 200Km. As you can see here, the early version provided only 130Km:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

but AESA need more power then other because every module has its processer and it generate more heat and more energy require to cool and operate it. so about engine you are right and i think it's main problem with mki so that can not use su 35 radar
and same for iaf mig 29
correct me if wrong


one question ,,,,,, is there thread dedicated to radar only

There is a lot of confusion about the AESA radar and more engine power issue, the fact is Su 35 has not even an AESA radar, but only an improved PESA radar which is even based on the Bars and even if MKI would need a more powerful engine, the Russians already could offer us the S117, that is used in Su 35 and T 50 at the moment.

Irbis-E - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not that I know.

 

[redpearl75]

Meteor Integration To Improve Gripen Export Value

HELSINKI - Sweden's strategy to add export value to the JAS 39 Gripen-NG continues, following the signing of a production contract with Britain's Ministry of Defense covering the integration of the active radar-guided Beyond Visual Range Meteor missile into the Swedish combat aircraft.

The integration process, which will run over four years, carries an estimated cost of $43 million. The Swedish Air Force's fleet of Gripen C/D fighters will be equipped with a two-way data link, allowing communication between the aircraft and the missile once it has been fired.

Additionally, the Meteor will be tested with the Gripen's radar, avionics systems and displays. The order includes test flights and test firing, as well as the integration of Meteor with support and maintenance systems, including simulators and planning computers.

This latest investment in Gripen will improve its ability to operate against air targets at long range.

Britain has used the Gripen as a test aircraft for the development of the Meteor since 2006, with multiple missiles having been fired from the Swedish aircraft.

Britain is the lead nation in the European Meteor missile development system project, which started in 2002. Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Sweden are the other major partners. Britain and Spain have already signed production orders on Meteor.

FMV, Sweden's defense materials procurement agency, signed a contract with Saab Aerosystems in September covering integration of the Meteor missile on the JAS 39 Gripen C/D version 20. The Meteor missile system is expected to be operational within the Swedish Air Force in 2015.

Meteor Integration To Improve Gripen Export Value - Defense News

 

[luckyyy]

AESA radar has many T/R modules which can be switch off/on to prevent overheating....

therefore it's helpfull to prevent damage to radar when the aircraft has to remain in air for long hours...

what are the other advantages of AESA radar has over PESA radar ..?

 

[kish]

very good collection of pic of indian armed forces, very intresting if u yet dont know about this

Indian Armed Forces

 

[kingdurgaking]

I agree that the Air Force and the navy will have different requirements. So definitely, the aircraft cannot be the same "version" for both the forces. In fact, aircraft for the navy need to be sturdier to handle the stresses of carrier operations and should be able to handle the corrosive sea conditions. But that doesn't mean the aircraft need to be completely different. There are huge advantages in using the same aircraft (but different versions) in both the navy and the air force. It helps us to cut costs in production, induction, training and maintenance. That's why most countries try to develop a naval variant for an aircraft that is operated by the air force instead of going for an entirely different aircraft altogether (of course, they also do this for the added benefit of saving money on developing an entirely different aircraft).

* The U.S. are currently developing the F-35 which is to have three versions - a CTOL version for the USAF, a naval version for the US Navy, and a STOVL version for the Marines.

* The Russians have Su-27s, Su-30s, Su-34s and Su-35s for the air force while the navy uses Su-33s - all are based on the same basic airframe.

* The Chinese have the J-11 (a copy of the Russian Flankers) for the PLAAF and are developing the J-11BH / J-15 for their navy.

* The French have developed the Rafale as a multi-role aircraft used by both their navy and airforce.

* Even in India, we are working on a naval version of the Tejas. Moreover, we went for the MiG-29Ks (MiG-29 in IAF inventory).

Please elaborate on the bolded part.

You're wrong...

The Rafale was a forerunner in the Brazilian competition and infact Lula mentioned the Rafale was his choice. Recent reports that the Brazilian air force is preferring the cheaper Gripen may be to get a better deal from the French. Brazil had indicated that ToT was of prime importance to them and the Rafle could give them just what they want.

UAE was very interested in the Rafale, but were unhappy over the price of some upgrades they wanted. Their interest in the Super Hornet is likely a way to get a better deal.

The IAF were very impressed by the Mirages performance in Kargil and wanted to buy additional Mirages, but then the French said they were closing the Mirage assembly line. That's why the MRCA competition was announced in the first place.



This has already been answered in my previous post. Moreover, if the Rafale bags some orders from Brazil, UAE or India, France won't be driven to such drastic measures because they know how adept the Chinese are at reverse engineering. Anyway, I doubt France will offer their key technologies (like SPECTRA) to China.

P.S. As I am a busy at the moment, I will continue this discussion later.....

Buddy .. For AirForce and Navy though the airframe looks same but there are lot of difference in the system as such.. Even though Rafael navy looks similar in appearance it is altogether a different aircraft.. just like our Tejas and Trainer... Just for airframe and few subsytem it wont bring down the cost for sure.. Sea fighters are optimized on different caliber and it wont be equal to Airforce.... You Please dont bring Navy in to the discussion as it is MMRCA for IAF and IAF doesnt care for Navy's requirement ... even Navy RFI is not full... chance for F35 entering is more there..

Further on deal wining part.. Rafael is really pathetic .. if it is a very good aircraft.. deal worth for money then.... my simple question to you is why it is not successful in selling like typhoons.. Brazil has just told it is a fore runner and not the winner..

Any my simple question is if Rafael is damn good.. then when IAF considered Mirage why not it choosen Rafael directly instead it went for a MMRCA game?? and as far i see the Mirage Upgrades will have substantial Rafael features.. and there fore i see the chance of Rafael winning is dim.. I like the bird... but not a powerful one.. So far Rafael is good only in sniffing ... which is only it is good at ...

As far ban lift ... i guess i have to take back seat now as US is also doing the same which will for EU also to dig the back of china..