Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kingdurgaking]

All it says is, that the Rafale already has a good T/W ratio and the French are only planing to add higher thrust in later upgrades. At the moment they are looking at more durability and reduced maintenance cost with the M88-2 E4, which will be the standard engine of the Rafale F3+, but they offered us the integration of Kaveri-Snecma if we want (the biggest advantage of Rafale, which no other contender can offer!).
Btw, TVC was offered for LCA with EJ engine and most likely with the EF too, but that also has to be funded by us if we want it. Higher thrust GE 414 for LCA, or for F18SH must also be funded by us, so this is definitelly nor French specific, nor has it anything to do with Rafale orders.

Buddy what i meant was .. there was a news article which stated Rafael and F18 was underpowered in MMRCA(Not sure about the validity but on the whole every one accepts that fact).. if that is the case we have to ask for the new engine which shows the aircraft is clearly underpower... which is not that case with EF.. we dont need to do enhance with EF.. did you get my point?? but with Rafael yes and we need to pay money for that..

Look, first comes the RFI where all vendors responded with their informations on their fighters... and IAF found out, that based on these infos all 6 fits the requirement and they could enter the field trials. But now field trials are over, IAF now can way better judge what was PR in the vendor infos and what is reality. So if they now found out that A2G capabilities are not good enough, that radars will not be delivered in time, or proposed costs are not correctly calculated by the vendors..., now is the time to shortlist/reject them.
I had a discussion about the EW with Lt. Prateek in this thread before, you should search for it, but the currtent EF EWS is not as good as the SPECTRA EWS.
The infos given at wiki, or even Aero India about EFs ground attack capabilities are, about what is possible if every weapon would be integrated, but it does not show what the reality is right now. So far it has not even a single A2G missile (no anti radiation, no anti ship, not anti tank and most important, no cruise missile integrated), which makes it to the least capable in this field!

I am not sure about these details.. as Prateek dear seems to be an authentic guy.. so he must have the information on who was IAF favourite right??... As far i see T3 was offered to India and it will be a true swing role fighter just like MKI.. though not better than MKI(Just my words because i love MKI more than any fighter around... need to see Indradanush ....) but which is not the case with Rafael not as powerful enough especially .... good only for snipping ... but EF has claimed total dominance .... which is needed especially with china..

Yes if IAF is looking for Ground Attack like mirage then EF should go ... and Rafael will also go because there is a king out there which cant be beaten ...

Discussed here often before, finacial crisis caused budget cuts in all partner countries, UK and ITA don't need further A2G capabilities because they will get F35, ITA don't even wanted AESA radar, swashplate AESA radar development just started, because partners couldn't agree on development and funds...
French is going through the same crisis of course and have to cut things too, but they funded the integration of most of the weapons before and don't seems to make cuts on Rafale, because it is meant to replace all older French fighters. 1 country has it easier to look at their budget and decide what to fund and when, compared to 4 countries that has to look at 4 different budgets.

Yes did any of the spokes of any of the country said we are not upgrading EF because we are going to F35... is this a news? or your assumption(Not a personal attack just a question).... But buddy EF already flew with AESA.... means AESA is developed/Testing only Production version is to be finalized and that is pushed for T3 yes which is the concern ... And reducing the orders doesnt mean reducing the funds for R&D ... EU will invest on R&D because they have to do this at some point of time as they cant depend of F35 always.... and as said France is struggling more now to sell there fighter than EU....which means future updates are more costly... we are not talking about the current one... this one will become obsolete in couple of years... .. and Rafael is not having huge contract outside hardly another 100 planes... which is not the case with EF .. it has got and will get more with more lining up.... so future upgrades are not that costly...

That is plain wrong! All EU countries has restrictions on selling arms to China, it was even reported that France had concerns to sell weapons and techs to Pakistan, because they are afraid of techs could be transfered to China.

Is this your opinion?? EU has strict restriction and France want to break it.. and France are ready sell arms to Pak buddy..It is only money because they fear Pakistan will ask for loan and france will not be in position at this point of time.. any way China is getting things from US so EU will also open and this discussion is void now...

Also, Rafale has good chances in UAE, Brazil and Swiss, Lybia and Kuwait shows interest too. EF on the other hand, has just lost again a contract in Rumania against F16s and has only the Swiss competition running besides MMRCA.

UAE is out of reach for Rafale.. if France wins it will be a different plane altogether not the Rafale in the inventory... which means UAE has to fund more money to france ... and UAE is not interested in the current one... and Brazil seems to go with Gripen now... and for swiss EF is there and Lybia and Kuwait total order is not more than 50.... totally it not more than 100 dude... which means there will be a max of 400 rafale flying including India.. so consider any future upgrade it will be done with 400 planes in mind and only two potential customers India and France will do upgrade.... so see the overall cost ... though this cost is not considered now but yes just like Mirage we will pay a huge price...

Btw, EF has around 500 orders (only 2 export customers and both bought for political reasons), Rafale only 180 so far. EF uses mainly cheaper US weapons, while Rafale uses more expensive French/EU weapons. But why is Rafale still offered for lower costs than the EF?

Total cost of the deal is $10 ^9 and i am sure EF will bring the pice within that... if not yes they are out.. and Rafale offering the same will not make much impact.. and EF has got attractive weapons of US in there kitty a time tested one and they are integrating Meteor also... just like Rafale ...

This again is wrong! EADS has never offered a partnership in civil aviation and even if, it would be offered by the French too, because it is half owned by them.

EADS hasnt told we will partner with civil aviation.. but it has said it will help in bridging the gap we are lacking... which is told by the EADS chief... i dont think France Dassault Chief has told anything so..... i think this must be an assumption of France POV right?

All that is on offer is a EF partnership as a minor partner and mainly outsourcing of avionics and if we had gone for EJ 200 engines, also some of the engine parts for all EFs. I don't deny that this still is a big offer and from the industrial point of view possibly the best, but it does not equalise the clear disadvantages of the fighter itself and that are base requirements, that has to be fulfilled first!

Buddy something is better than nothing.. and Dassault hasnt offered this also... where as EADS has got the formal approval in making india has the 5th Partner.....

The French on the other hand doesn't offer bad things too, Kaveri-Sncema co-delopment and integration into Rafale, French MBDA already fixed Maitri SAM co-development and offers further partnerships in the weapons field and Dassault has stated to go beyond a buyer seller partnership, although we don't know what that means so far.

And do you know the inside information about the Kaveri joke?.. a co development was offered no doubt... but France denied the core technology here which is the key .... And IAF was initially against it.. not sure whether things got resolved on that front... do you have any news on that front?? and for SAM and other stuff we are not sure what is there in our plate... I trust only Israel in this matter.. As far as i know France dont give anything outside.. they wanted everything to happen within them only and wanted there product to be sold outside...

The French obviously offers the most co-developments, partnerships and JV and are an independent an sanction proof country, which alone is good for us, but lets hope they will offer a partnership too.

As far MMRCA is considered are they offering anything in the aviation industry to us?? only EADS has decided to do something compared to other contenders ... others are going to give as semi knocked kits and we will manufacture few parts and assemble rest of them...

 

[CONNAN]

France’s Rafale jet struggles to hit its target overseas

FT.com / Inside Business / Inside Europe - France?s Rafale jet struggles to hit its target overseas

By Paul Betts

Published: October 14 2010 21:23 | Last updated: October 14 2010 21:23

Nicolas Sarkozy likes to portray himself as the executive president. He sees himself as France’s salesman-in-chief promoting the country’s flagship exports, clinching deals around the world, especially with fast-growing emerging countries like China, India, Brazil and the oil-rich Gulf nations. He has even set up a so-called “war room” in his Elysée palace to support military and civil exports.

But this grand export strategy seems to be running into growing difficulties of late. The new generation EPR European pressurised reactor – supposed to be spearheading the country’s ambitions to lead the revival of the world nuclear market – is facing all sorts of problems, not least in Finland, the US and in Abu Dhabi where it lost out to South Korea.

Worse, Eurostar, the Channel tunnel high-speed train operator controlled by SNCF, the French state railway, has just ordered German-built Siemens trains rather than those of its national champion, Alstom. Even more worrying is the continuing dearth of export orders for the Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft.

France has yet to win an export order for the Rafale. It has been trying for a decade without success. Securing a foreign order for this combat aircraft is not just a matter of prestige for the French. After all, Serge Dassault, the veteran controlling shareholder of the eponymous aircraft maker, is also a senator and member of the governing UMP party and owner of Le Figaro, the slavishly pro-Sarkozy newspaper.

But there are more important reasons why Rafale export sales are so crucial. Exports would reduce the overall cost of the programme at the same time as providing funds to help finance new research and technology. Without exports, there is the risk that France would no longer be able to ensure the autonomy of its military aircraft industry, especially when the time eventually comes to develop a replacement for the Rafale.

Last, but not least, failure to export the combat aircraft will put further stress on the country’s already stretched Treasury. Indeed, the French Defence Ministry has decided to order 11 additional Rafales next year earlier than scheduled to ensure that production lines keep running. This will cost the taxpayer an extra €800m ($1.1bn).

It is not for lack of trying on the part of the president that France has so far failed to place an export order for the Rafale. But Mr Sarkozy also has a tendency of jumping the gun. He clearly finds it difficult to resist announcing to the world that he has finally pulled off a significant export sale for the Rafale even before the contract is signed and delivered.

A year ago, he announced with great fanfare that France had struck up a privileged relationship with President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva and that Brazil had agreed to buy a first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft. In the long run, the order could rise to 100 combat aircraft. But 12 months later, the deal has yet to be finalised and there are signs that the Brazilians may ultimately opt for the rival Swedish Saab Gripen fighter rather than the more expensive Rafale.

A senior Brazilian government official confirmed this week that Brazil had decided to suspend a final decision until after the second round of the country’s presidential elections at the end of this month. He also suggested the competition was still open. In other words, the choice could still go either way.

This summer, President Sarkozy also announced that the UAE was considering replacing its older fleet of 63 French Mirage jets with Rafales. Once again, the French camp seemed confident they had finally clinched an export order for the aircraft in a region that has traditionally been an important customer for French defence equipment. But this month, the UAE suggested it was also looking at the US Boeing F18 Super Hornet as an alternative. So the prospect of success once again risks turning into a mirage.

Elsewhere, Kuwait and India are looking for new combat aircraft but the competition is bound to be fierce. For several reasons. The first is that the US military-industrial complex is intensifying its export sales drive, not least to compensate for heavy cuts in the Pentagon’s budget. The second is that Russia is now in the game and has overtaken France as the world’s third largest arms exporter after the US and the UK. The third is a problem purely of Europe’s own making.

In all these export contests, Europe invariably fields three competing offers of its own – the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale and the Saab Gripen – which is one more than even the US typically offers. In so doing, it gives its US and Russian rivals an obvious advantage. Until the Europeans finally decide to consolidate their combat aircraft industry, they can only continue to lose altitude

 

[SpArK]

Eurofighter Consortium Targeting Asian Market​

The question is, "Could the manufacturers of the Eurofighter-2000 combat aircraft enter the military market in Asia which is already owned by the United States and Russia?". Why is the Eurofighter vnedors so Confident? European fighter jets in asia can be calculated on a few fingers.

For example, Taiwan has used multi-role combat aircraft Mirage-2000 / 5 made in France, Dassault Aviation for a long time. Recently, the Thai Air Force's purchase dozens of next-generation fighter aircrafts, JAS-39 Grippen and 1 unit of an early warning aircraft made by Saab, Sweden. Singapore purchased dozens of M-346 Masters training aircraft made by Alenia Aeromacchi from Italy not long after the Singapore Airshow 2010. The rest are products made in the United States and Russia that dominate the southeast and east asia airforces.

One hope for the Eurofighter consortium is to offer a next generation of fighter aircraft to several countries in Asia who are looking for a replacement to their arsenals that are approaching retirement. Or just equip its air force.

Apparently, new hope has emerged from Japan, South Korea and Malaysia which restore their confidence to enter the fighter jet markets.

Yesterday, Eurofighter CEO told flightinternational that he felt optimistic that the Japanese and Malaysian markets are still open. Japan wants U.S. to give it permission to sell the 5th generation stealth jet fighter, F-22 to them, but was rejected by the U.S. For that Japan intends to build or buy its own fifth generation fighter aircraft.

If Japan is the first choice, who is ready with this fifth generation product in addition to Russia and the U.S. Japan has no military trade relations with Russia, obviously not the right choice. The choice fell on the second, ie, build oneself. However, the Japanese producers face financial, human resources and time issues related to design and mass production before they can get approval from the Japanese government. And during that time also, what is the appropriate aircraft to fill the gap, while its neighboring countries were ready with a new generation fighter aircraft.

Based on news releases, Japan intends to buy fourth generation fighter aircraft through a tender process. Companies that compete have been participating in the tender were Boeing F-15 SE (Silent Eagle) and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter with EF-2000 Tranche 3B. But in the future, Japan will buy the fifth generation fighter, STOVL JSF F-35. In addition, the Eurofighter consortium said it would be willing to help build the fifth generation fighter jets aircraft for Japan. Condition is that after the project finished, the Japanese government should be willing to buy between 50 to 60 units for 5 years in the future. Less than that, for example 20 units to 30 units, the possibility of cooperation will be precluded.

South Korea seems to choose to be more independent with KF project (Korean FIGHTER) - X. This project is in phase 3 namely KF-X. Interestingly, Indonesia took part in the project. KF-X III project itself is in discussions with potential partners who might fund the project together with KAI (Korean Aircraft Industry).

Recently, Malaysia Armed Forces TUDM (Malaysian Air Forces) will launch a fighter jet renewal project to replace the old jets that are entering retirement soon. Malaysia's selected several types of fighter planes from the west and east before deciding which ones will become the backbone of their Air Force. Some candidates who come to the surface include: JAS-29NG Grippen, EF-2000 Tranche 3B, F/A-18E/F and SU-35. For the Su-35, the Malaysian government is persuading the Russian government for export.

Eurofighter boasts that the latest modification of EF-2000 with the radar AESA (Active Electronic Scan Array) and Meteor missile capable of turning 180 degrees. Not known whether the Eurofighter will also offer variable nozzle to Malaysia, or indeed included it in the bid package. If Eurofighter offers this package, it is clear that the Eurofighter wants to try to cancel the intention of Malaysia in owning Su-35, because these two jets almost have the same in terms of performance.

The decision will revolve around the objective of the aircraft. Where do they want to dominate? Maritime or land superiority, air superiority or electronic combat warfare.

In addition, they will consider the price given fiscal constraints, the level of difficulty retraining its pilots, mechanics and maintenance.


If the choice ultimately fell on the JAS-39 then its primary purpose is to protect their navy's surface ships and gain the capability to attack submarines. If the F/A-18E/F is choosen the decision will hinge on pilot training regardless of the political risk and the aim to disrupt / neutralize enemy radar and electronic equipment.


If the selection falls to EF-2000, it can be sure the goal is to win air superiority.

So what about Indonesia? The ability of Su-27 and 30 had apparently also been no match for Malaysia, but expect the 4.5 generation fighter capabilities to be much better than Malaysia but still well below that of Australia and Singapore.



Author Opinion: Eurofighter Consortium Targeting Asian Market | GroundReport

 

[kingdurgaking]

EF-2000 Tranche 3B??

Have they started on T3?? i really doubt that...

 

[SpArK]

No CISMOA, No Problem: IAF Chief​

I asked Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today about his position on the uncertainty over whether or when India will sign the contentious Communciations Interoperability & Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with the United States. He had a crisp, short reply: "The government asked us for our opinion on the matter. We have informed the government that [not signing the CISMOA] will not make a difference as far as our operational capability is concerned."

I've posted here about what the IAF doesn't get on its brand new C-130Js as a direct consequence of not signing the CISMOA. I'll be posting soon on how the IAF plans to fill those gaps.


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: No CISMOA, No Problem: IAF Chief

 

[sancho]

Buddy what i meant was .. there was a news article which stated Rafael and F18 was underpowered in MMRCA(Not sure about the validity but on the whole every one accepts that fact).. if that is the case we have to ask for the new engine which shows the aircraft is clearly underpower... which is not that case with EF.. we dont need to do enhance with EF.. did you get my point?? but with Rafael yes and we need to pay money for that..

I think you really mixing up too many things, last time the wiki points and now MMRCA with UAE. Rafale in MMRCA has one of the best T/W ratios, so doesn't need a new engine, or higher thrust. The offer to integrate the Kaveri is an additional advantage for India to customise it with our own engine. Not only that we can reduce costs by not licence producing a foreign engine, but we have total control over the engine and can develop further upgrades on our own too. That means we are not dependend on the upgrade solution the vendor gives us in future and can focuse the upgrade to our needs.

The UAE instead as usual wants to customise their Rafale versions, that's why they demand higher thrust, improved radar and EWS, more weapon configs..., but that is their usual behavior, they customised and funded further upgrades at Mirage 2000, just like they did with the F16s before.

Yes if IAF is looking for Ground Attack like mirage then EF should go ... and Rafael will also go because there is a king out there which cant be beaten ...

The funny thing is, that you confuse the Mirage as a ground attack fighter, which was never its aim in IAF. It always served in air superiority roles and was used in Kargil in the strike role only, because our other fighters was not able to do it. Regarding EF and Rafale in A2A, please search in this thread, or google for the ATLC exercise and you will clearly change your mind.

Yes did any of the spokes of any of the country said we are not upgrading EF because we are going to F35... is this a news? or your assumption(Not a personal attack just a question).... But buddy EF already flew with AESA.... means AESA is developed/Testing only Production version is to be finalized and that is pushed for T3 yes which is the concern ...

Most of it was reported often before, just like that the actual AESA that they now are going for is the Swashplate AESA Selex developed partly for the Gripen NG demonstrator. That has nothing to do with the initial AESA development for the EF, they just switched to reduce costs. Infact Germany was against it and wanted a fixed AESA, but the commonality to the Gripen NG development will reduce the R&D costs and UK/ITA and Selex pushed it through and still, till now the developmend is prefunded by the companies only, not by the partners. The companies already stated that they will deliver the early versions of the radar by 2015 only, but the way it goes with the EF, delays are more than likely.

as said France is struggling more now to sell there fighter than EU....which means future updates are more costly... we are not talking about the current one... this one will become obsolete in couple of years... .. and Rafael is not having huge contract outside hardly another 100 planes... which is not the case with EF .. it has got and will get more with more lining up.... so future upgrades are not that costly...

That exactly what I meant in my last post, the EF has already higher numbers, but still failed to reduce the costs to be cheaper than the Rafale, so on what basis can you say that future upgrades will be cheaper? Keep in mind that the costs are even about to rise, at the moment EF uses US Aim 120, which is cost-effective, but just like all Eurocanards, the EF will switch to METEOR when it is available.

Is this your opinion?? EU has strict restriction and France want to break it.. and France are ready sell arms to Pak buddy..It is only money because they fear Pakistan will ask for loan and france will not be in position at this point of time.. any way China is getting things from US so EU will also open and this discussion is void now...

Once again, France is a EU country, which means they have the same restrictions, or do you forget that Germany is offering PN subs, Sweden offers AWACS, ITA/UK radars... to Pakistan too? And so far they don't sell critical techs, or weapons to China.

EADS hasnt told we will partner with civil aviation.. but it has said it will help in bridging the gap we are lacking... which is told by the EADS chief... i dont think France Dassault Chief has told anything so..... i think this must be an assumption of France POV right?

You still don't understand it right? EADS is a company that has 50% German shares and 50% French, infact the German shares are completelly privat, but the France gov holds shares of the French part. That means if EADS decided to help Indias civil aviation, it will be with the French together, but as I said there was never such an offer, especially not related to MMRCA although I would be more than happy to see it.

And do you know the inside information about the Kaveri joke?.. a co development was offered no doubt... but France denied the core technology here which is the key .... And IAF was initially against it.. not sure whether things got resolved on that front... do you have any news on that front??

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1187229-post3244.html

India also has been in discussions to develop Kaveri, an indigenous engine, for the LCA. Technology and assistance discussions were held with Snecma last week. The Kaveri requires greater thrust and a reduction in weight, a spokesman says.

 

[Typhoon]

When will the Final results be out? IAF and GOI has taken too much of time and have been postponing the date of Final results? Any Insider information on the dates?? But I can tell you the result-Typhoon is the winner!

 

[Stealth_fighter]

i think if India goes for western,then they will go for typhoon

 

[Hulk]

I am not seriously thinking it will be F18.

 

[Insane]

I don't know why some people think F18 is not a good choice.

I don't care if its the best, but I think it could be delivered in time without much issues. Get F18 or Rafale and finish this long running drama... Its soon going to overtake running time of kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi

I have nothing against it but, Typhoon would be a bad choice at this point in time.

Priority - Quick Induction.
Choice No.1 - F18
End of Story.

 

[Typhoon]

I don't know why some people think F18 is not a good choice.

I don't care if its the best, but I think it could be delivered in time without much issues. Get F18 or Rafale and finish this long running drama... Its soon going to overtake running time of kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi

I have nothing against it but, Typhoon would be a bad choice at this point in time.

Priority - Quick Induction.
Choice No.1 - F18
End of Story.

On what technical, historical or political basis you claim F-18SH will be best for India? Please elaborate rather than using launguage such as " End of Story".

Please elaborate on Platform, Delivery Systems, agility, FULL TOT and reliability of US in providing source codes to IAF, Systems having Secure Codes (i.e. when India goes to war,That A/C could be switched off by Master USA), TOT is major issue as experience by Earlier Buyers of US Toys, No Further advancement or Up-gradation will be allowed if and when required without US permission, dependence for each and every mission will be subjected to prior informing US about the details of the mission;gravely undermining the mission effectiveness of IAF.....Plus you can enlighten us on your other case to case aspects, on why F-18 is better than Latest more advanced hassle free A/Cs such as Typhoon or Rafael with FULL TOT!

 

[Insane]

On what technical, historical or political basis you claim F-18SH will be best for India? Please elaborate rather than using launguage such as " End of Story".

Please elaborate on Platform, Delivery Systems, agility, FULL TOT and reliability of US in providing source codes to IAF, Systems having Secure Codes (i.e. when India goes to war,That A/C could be switched off by Master USA), TOT is major issue as experience by Earlier Buyers of US Toys, No Further advancement or Up-gradation will be allowed if and when required without US permission, dependence for each and every mission will be subjected to prior informing US about the details of the mission;gravely undermining the mission effectiveness of IAF.....Plus you can enlighten us on your other case to case aspects, on why F-18 is better than Latest more advanced hassle free A/Cs such as Typhoon or Rafael with FULL TOT!

Enough technical discussion already available on the forum. I did not say it is the best.. I am not here to argue on that. Infact sick of people still going on and on with discussion about technology.

See, when you need something, you decide and buy it within a decent time frame from what is already established in the market. That way you can use the stuff for the original need. If you delay needs will change and technology evolves all the time.

MMRCA should be in induction phase right now. We are still deciding what to buy. Sorry state of affairs... Force levels are of paramount importance.

We are already in queue for 5th Gen Fighter FGFA. Ideally I would have wanted IAF to Fly the MMRCA right now instead of 2014-2015. So we have the edge in the region as far as Air power is considered. And come 2017-2020 when PAK-FA/FGFA starts coming in, we maintain the cutting edge over the adversary.

F/A -18 is a good enough proven fighter, Boeing is a manufacturer of repute who has a matured system ready to deliver. What also helps the cause is that it is not the most expensive as the price is always one key consideration. Now to top it all, we have the same engine for LCA. Good enough for me.

And lastly I trust we can strike a good deal with US. I am not scared of the sanctions. That fear is over-rated.

 

[Typhoon]

Enough technical discussion already available on the forum. I did not say it is the best.. I am not here to argue on that. Infact sick of people still going on and on with discussion about technology.

See, when you need something, you decide and buy it within a decent time frame from what is already established in the market. That way you can use the stuff for the original need. If you delay needs will change and technology evolves all the time.

MMRCA should be in induction phase right now. We are still deciding what to buy. Sorry state of affairs... Force levels are of paramount importance.

We are already in queue for 5th Gen Fighter FGFA. Ideally I would have wanted IAF to Fly the MMRCA right now instead of 2014-2015. So we have the edge in the region as far as Air power is considered. And come 2017-2020 when PAK-FA/FGFA starts coming in, we maintain the cutting edge over the adversary.

F/A -18 is a good enough proven fighter, Boeing is a manufacturer of repute who has a matured system ready to deliver. What also helps the cause is that it is not the most expensive as the price is always one key consideration. Now to top it all, we have the same engine for LCA. Good enough for me.

And lastly I trust we can strike a good deal with US. I am not scared of the sanctions. That fear is over-rated.

Still you din't answer my queries??

You say F-18SH is a proved platform, could elaborate how many countries have this platform and how many combats this platform- which was mainly designed especially for navy and Marines have faced?

It does not matter how good a platform you may perceive F-18SH to be, fact to the matter remains this platform has lowest Ground and Air attack capabilities; above all TOT is the major issues and un-reliability of US defense deals is a Proven fact, a change in regime or change in international scenario can make support services hard to fathom, read about Lost Decade, experience of Turkey,and other nations with US imports, you will find a painful reality, and the case of India would be even worse, knowing USA's shortsightedness and ever dynamic foreign policy!

 

[Insane]

Still you din't answer my queries??

You say F-18SH is a proved platform, could elaborate how many countries have this platform and how many combats this platform- which was mainly designed especially for navy and Marines have faced?

It does not matter how good a platform you may perceive F-18SH to be, fact to the matter remains this platform has lowest Ground and Air attack capabilities; above all TOT is the major issues and un-reliability of US defense deals is a Proven fact, a change in regime or change in international scenario can make support services hard to fathom, read about Lost Decade, experience of Turkey,and other nations with US imports, you will find a painful reality, and the case of India would be even worse, knowing USA's shortsightedness and ever dynamic foreign policy!

If you did not understand, I am not intending to answer your queries and that is precisely the reason I ignored them. You should form your own opinion about why people feel the way they feel ( particularly if they are not answering the way you are looking to get the answer), and you are entitled to your opinion.

US uses F 18 and that is enough for me. Why should i sit down to count which countries use what. I did not find any country using Rafale but I still supported it. I am focused on my needs and if something in the current market as of today can satisfy it or not.

Lastly I am not concerned about which country had what kind of a buyer-seller relationship with US. Every relationship is different. If doing business with US was so much of a concern, then we would not award billions of dollars worth of important deals to them.

 

[Typhoon]

If you did not understand, I am not intending to answer your queries and that is precisely the reason I ignored them. You should form your own opinion about why people feel the way they feel ( particularly if they are not answering the way you are looking to get the answer), and you are entitled to your opinion.

US uses F 18 and that is enough for me. Why should i sit down to count which countries use what. I did not find any country using Rafale but I still supported it. I am focused on my needs and if something in the current market as of today can satisfy it or not.

Lastly I am not concerned about which country had what kind of a buyer-seller relationship with US. Every relationship is different. If doing business with US was so much of a concern, then we would not award billions of dollars worth of important deals to them.

Quoting other person and not answering his queries is considered _________.

However, it does not matter what you think it depends on IAF and GOI, and experience says that IAF will not be comfortable with restricted technology, when TOT is a pre-requisite and US is unable to assure full TOT at any given time. F-18SH is way too old A/C meant for sea faring navies not Ground Attacks and Air Superiority, above all its Air Frame is least aerodynamic . Fighting at heigh altitudes is not its forte and et al......

In the end its about how the production lines (Dassault and BAE systems already full fill this requirement with IAF having good amount of experience) and after sales services; with full TOT, and any American deal in this context Fails to Please any nation looking for TOT and self-reliability.

P.S: This is a Discussion forum and topics are supposed to be discussed, everyone is entitled to his/her opinions, however when making strong statements, others have to right to ask for explanations, as this being a public forum!