Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[joey]

Shornets are Avionics are out in the open, While MIG-35 most dont even know what they are,

Like garry says, Peoples says russian avionics are junk but where junk it is they fails to say.

SO you assume that they are good. AESA which is operational has problems, granted .,....funny you take it over a non-operational AESA from a country which doesnt have the computer-building capacity as the USA.

Israel doesnt has operational AESa?

What do you require movable electronic doors to have "as USA" mark?
Russia has acquired recently the whole AMD fabrication plant for defence needs.

Those articles you posted are ejculating on Data Provided by the Manufactures; I wont take that sorry. Why is the Russian Government not interested in this machine, while ordering more Su-30. MIG-35 is the last ditch effort to save a sinking company, Its a good aircraft, I agree but to compare it to Rafale and Typhoon is ludicrous. Shornet is a better aircarft other than on manoverbility, period.

Mig have worked on mig 35 for more than meets the eye, its impossible to make mig 35 within 2 years and put it in airshow.

fear not, MKI MK3 will meet Typhoon next year, As i said Taking rafale for granted from internet is as ridiculous as gross generalisation your making.

Mig 35 of tomorrow will surpass what Rafale will have by 2010.

 

[Adux]

Joey,

You are expecting Rafale not to improve till 2010, while the russians will.
I love russian hardware, Go see my russian video section in this forum. But to call MiG 35 equal to Typhoon, is idiotic.
AMD just gave them a manufacturing plant, and you think that is enough to make military grade chips.Funny
Russians have been good and have pioneered lots of first, For example : the FBW, the First HMCS etc etc.
Electronics, Networking, Americans are ahead. Americans have jumped ahead far ahead in the last 20 years. It will take russians some more time to catch up. but they will.
Americans have the only operational AESA on a Fighter. I am not sure if Israel has or not, if they do have it on the Sufa's then it is the Raytheon.

Elta is going to take a bit more time. I would take the Elta over the Zhuk

PS:I do know of Garry from KeyPub, I do read your posts there, I only post at this forum. I like it here.

Just a piece of advice, Please do consider why we are buying the MMRCA.
We are buying to replace the MiG-27/23. They are strike platforms, IAF lacks a true strike platform. While MiG 35 is a Superiority Fighter/Interceptor....

Russian Munitions A2G mode arent that great now, If we go for a Western Platform Meteor is a good possibility.
I am not a SuperBug Fan, But for the role we are looking for The best suited is F/A-18 SuperHornet Block II. Not the MiG, Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen. Maybe Rafale to some extend.
Hornet's Naval Traditions are a plus for us. Munitions and Avionics are great, USN is planning to use till 2030-35. Therefore garunteed upgrade's etc.
MiG -35, Tell me when the RuAF is interested. All the other planes have been built according to Reduction of RCS, except the MIG.
I am sorry MiG comes for me after superbug, Rafale, Typhoon, MIG, Gripen.

 

[joey]

Joey,
You are expecting Rafale not to improve till 2010, while the russians will.
I love russian hardware, Go see my russian video section in this forum. But to call MiG 35 equal to Typhoon, is idiotic.

And why is it so? is it because you hear in forums su30 has huge RCs and blah blah, right now Su 30 MKI has better radar than Typhoon.

Mig 35 is not equal to typhoon, but with the required sensor fusion it will be.

What rafale improvement by 2010? French have stopped funding on rafale as of now without customer, Rafale has got some issues as well, I expect Typhoons AESA to come online around 2015, long time yawn!

Its a fallacy of thinking that worlds second best aviation industry has a product which will be bad than what whole europe produces.

NO11M bars offers most of what AESA offers albeit with less cost and a bit less functionality of choosing independent frequencies.

AMD just gave them a manufacturing plant, and you think that is enough to make military grade chips.Funny

What do you udnerstand of producing Mil grade chips?
I have magazines odf latest Russian AESA developements.
Are you saying they lack chip designing ability?

Russians have been good and have pioneered lots of first, For example : the FBW, the First HMCS etc etc.
Electronics, Networking, Americans are ahead. Americans have jumped ahead far ahead in the last 20 years. It will take russians some more time to catch up. but they will.

Agree, and thats why i stated, a true solid state jammer, radar from israel, IRST from india, mission computer from India, munitions from europe/russia/india , datalinks from India ofcourse our very own Link II programme.

Americans have the only operational AESA on a Fighter. I am not sure if Israel has or not, if they do have it on the Sufa's then it is the Raytheon.

lol they have designed Green pine radar, MF-STAR radar which is better than what single EMPAR or HERAKLES can do!!

Elta is going to take a bit more time. I would take the Elta over the Zhuk

Anyday!

PS:I do know of Garry from KeyPub, I do read your posts there, I only post at this forum. I like it here.

Just a piece of advice, Please do consider why we are buying the MMRCA.
We are buying to replace the MiG-27/23. They are strike platforms, IAF lacks a true strike platform. While MiG 35 is a Superiority Fighter/Interceptor....

If Strike is what we are looking at, We should have looked for a A10 and 2 Squadrons of Tu22M3 backfire supported with 40 more MKI's.

We are looking entire multirole rather I'll say "swing role" capability, what Mig 35 offers in terms of versatility, F18 doesnt due to strings being attached to how can we use it.

we have our own datalinking programme, I dont see yanks letting us use it.

Russian Munitions A2G mode arent that great now, If we go for a Western Platform Meteor is a good possibility.

Not really a host of new missiles are coming up, Meteor is very nice which i damn wantm it is versatile means you change the seeker it becomes ARM

I am not a SuperBug Fan, But for the role we are looking for The best suited is F/A-18 SuperHornet Block II. Not the MiG, Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen. Maybe Rafale to some extend.

Block 2 is not on offer and will come online by 2010, also the thigns tyou see there might not be for offer which will be for USN.

rafale is a white elephant...looks great doesnt offers too much.

Hornet's Naval Traditions are a plus for us. Munitions and Avionics are great, USN is planning to use till 2030-35. Therefore garunteed upgrade's etc.
MiG -35, Tell me when the RuAF is interested. All the other planes have been built according to Reduction of RCS, except the MIG.

IAF and IN has some kind of issues, they are different dont mix them, Well what suites for USN upgrade is totally unsuitable for us, look at ANY UPGRADE OF IAF and to how extent it has been done.

I am sorry MiG comes for me after superbug, Rafale, Typhoon, MIG, Gripen.

thats youe personal opinion which you havent provided satisfactory explanation is what i feel, Rafale would be great for Vikramaditya, but for MKI'zed Mig 35? no sorry.

If today you put the things WHICH ARE NEEDED in Rafale , cost will shoot up to 130mn$ per piece, also there is a big IF if the french are willing to do what we ask them.

As I said upgrade the mirage 2005 properly you have 80% of rafales capabilities, What India needed is Mirage 5, but sadly GOI's delay made IAF suffer.

 

[Adux]

Joey,

A-10 are not Strike aircraft , they are Close air Support, Strike is a different concept all together, Tu-22M3, is a heavy striker bomber and naval too, a different role. Only if you understand this concept can you understand what the MMRCA deal is all about...

If we are looking for an offensive platform, Let me give you an example, Striking a Missile launching pad's before it is fired.
Understand what all do we need for that? Then you will understand why the IAF needs the MMRCA.

SuperHornet being still funded by the USN says a lot more than a Sales Brochure Plane like the MiG

 

[joey]

If anything I want is what is here,

Mig 35 with RD33MK with 3D TVC from klipsce.
Elm 2052 AESA
Internal True solid state Jammer.
Composite body when making it in India.
Indian integrated Datalinking system.
Indian integrated mission computer system.
Indo-Israeli integrated avionics.
INS/GPS from Russia.

comfortably under 45mn$ a piece.

Strike package should include,

BVR capability,

Astraa/R77/Meteor

ARM missile,

New one vympel is making and Meteor.

Naval strike package, Exocet Block 3 or NSM and Sagarika in later stages.

**** bombs:

PGM's developed by IOsraely specifically for IAF and cluster bombs.


SIVA HADF pod developed by DARE.
Lobhushka system or X-guard system from Israel.


just see the commnality and how much less will be logistic issue.
now tell me the cost or the political will to customize F18 like that or anything..

IAF customises EACH jet like Israel does.

 

[joey]

Joey,

A-10 are not Strike aircraft , they are Close air Support, Strike is a different concept all together, Tu-22M3, is a heavy striker bomber and naval too, a different role. Only if you understand this concept can you understand what the MMRCA deal is all about...

If we are looking for an offensive platform, Let me give you an example, Striking a Missile launching pad's before it is fired.
Understand what all do we need for that? Then you will understand why the IAF needs the MMRCA

Have you checked the SIVA HADF pod? for anti-SAM role, what it needs is with its link 2 capability and passive tracking ability of it couple it with a ARM missile.

I have read a lot on MRCA everywhere it is said IAF is looking for "Swing role" aircraft!

 

[Adux]

F/A-18 Is the only true swing role. Heck it is even written Fighter / Attack
You just termed A-10 as Strike platform, They are used for supporting infantry and tanks. More on the lines of the Su-25,
You havent understood why IAF needs the MMRCA, the purpose of it in our New Doctrine of First Strike Capability.

Range,Payload, A 2 G Munitions, Datalinking and RCS reduction. In all these departments F/A-18 beats the crap out of MiG 35,We are looking at JDAMS, JSOM, HARM etc. AMRAAM, Meteor, Its a qualitative leap, Russians cant match that, unfortunatly. This is what we are looking for our new doctrine and MMRCA.. please dont give me sales brochures stuff. W

What you have written is a wish list above.

 

[Adux]

I have heard Sagarika is the SLBM name of AGNI. I could be wrong

 

[joey]

F/A-18 Is the only true swing role. Heck it is even written Fighter / Attack

Yes it is Swing role, so is Mig 35 MKI'zed so is Su 30 MKI.
J10/JF17/LCA are all multirole fighters...

You just termed A-10 as Strike platform, They are used for supporting infantry and tanks. More on the lines of the Su-25,

When did i said A10 is a strike ac? I said on your point your talking of strike strike, I said strike is what you need get carpet bombers and support!

You havent understood why IAF needs the MMRCA, the purpose of it in our New Doctrine of First Strike Capability.

Yeah you lvie in air hq? , I know so what IAF doesnt has in MKI for first strike other than numbers? First strike as a whole is a big psy ops besides having obvious effect.

Range,Payload, A 2 G Munitions, Datalinking and RCS reduction. In all these departments F/A-18 beats the crap out of MiG 35, This is what we are looking for our new doctrine and MMRCA.. please dont give me sales brochures stuff.
What you have written is a wish list above.

RCS reduction.......when how why? explain please?
datalinks ? baseless!! IAF has own Datalink programme the Link II WHY ON EARTH will we use Us datalinks?

Read up on BEL's Link 2 system.

If I'm quoting self brochure stuffs (which I'm not), your quoting fanboy stuff like MKI has big rcs etc, I have seen MKI's RCS pattern graphical diagram, and it is not what being portrayed publicly, also remember it wont be what is actual.

Your looking for RCS? hell probably Gripen/LCA has lower RCS than hornet...
The term RCS is a fallacy for dirty fighters (external payload), it compensates for whatever the design.

Also it is relative term means frontal rcs to rear rcs and depends on altitude to humidity.

 

[joey]

See F18 Block 2's capability is not what I'm doubting but the feasibility versus Mig 35.

A plane which costs 145mn$ for aussie, with the customization we want it will go up to 150mn$ per piece!! do you realise that?

It doesnt offers anything "SO SPECIAL" that mig 35 doesnt, other than fancy names.

Ofcourse the shortopcmings of mig 35 is what Mig is addressing through international partnerships!

 

[Adux]

Joey,
You may believe all you want, Trying to prove you wrong on the internet is not my job.I think Su-30MKi is the best for its job,Air-Superiority.
I hope you know that comes after Strike of SAM assets by the Strike Aircarfts.
I am all for Strike cuz with MMRCA we are replacing our current Strike Aircraft MiG-27/23. MIG -35 is an Interceptor/Superiority platform, TVC etc shows you what it is tuned for. I am arguing about the role not the aircraft. I hope you get that.
Yes Gripen/LCA might have lesser RCS, but do they have the range and payload. I hope you get it atleast now.

If we were selecting an Interceptor/Airsuperiority, we should select MIG35/Typhoon over the Hornet. Anyday.

 

[joey]

My take is still Mig 35 plus Rafale, or Typhoon, any of these two because of METEOR baby! and some other fancy packages

If we have to buy 126, 150mn$ fighter induction starting post 2010, better was to sign for JSF.

I dont want to put asll egs in one basket nor I want India to go for one single super bug.

 

[Adux]

Joey

I already told you it is not F/A 18 is not 150 mil per plane, It includes lots of other things like, 4 spare engines per aircarft, the whole array of munitions, upgrade garuntee, etc etc, so please.

100 F/A- 22 costs only 30 billion for the japanese according to an article I read.
(above post)Only 5 million of customization, what are we doing Formula 1 cars..lol

 

[joey]

Joey,
You may believe all you want, Trying to prove you wrong on the internet is not my job.I think Su-30MKi is the best for its job,Air-Superiority.
I hope you know that comes after Strike of SAM assets by the Strike Aircarfts.
I am all for Strike cuz with MMRCA we are replacing our current Strike Aircraft MiG-27/23. MIG -35 is an Interceptor/Superiority platform, TVC etc shows you what it is tuned for. I am arguing about the role not the aircraft. I hope you get that.
Yes Gripen/LCA might have lesser RCS, but do they have the range and payload. I hope you get it atleast now.

If we were selecting an Interceptor/Airsuperiority, we should select MIG35/Typhoon over the Hornet. Anyday.

DRDO has developed a kickass POD for anti-SAM role, what you need is Meteor with a ARM seeker for strike role, and a smart missile.......

It is munitions which you can have from Europa! or Israel!

I do know Gripen(c/d)/LCa is not suitable for MRCA.

You know what India wants? Light less maintenance, kickass fighter! and "Swing role" , not only strike................

Mirage was best,
next best is Gripen E/F but that will only come by 2010.

All twin engine fighters is what firstly MRCA tried to avoid, later they chipped in due to lack of proper single engined fighter and mirage line being closed.

 

[Adux]

Heck the F/A 22 is only 166 million,Now I can say for sure that you dont have much grasp on the issue. The Aussie planes cost them 72 million FYI