Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

plus MIg 21 also had advantage of isreali EW suite

M2ks also have advantge of better EW & self protection suite

Just as the Su 30 had and still it was not used for escort missions, so it's not the capability of the fighter in general that counts, but the low detectability isn't it?

& for lca mark1 in escort mission in a foreign land it has to field a simliar quality of EW suite as it has to carry 3 efts for that ,so how much RCS it would have you can calculate yourselfs...

...LCA mark1 escorting rafale in strike packages in foreign land without any dedicated EA aircraft or after SEAD.

Because IAF used always had dedicated EA and SEAD support strike missions...
...oh wait, they didn't!
So again you are claiming things that have nothing to do with each other. First it was the lack of missile carrying capability and IRST, when that was proven to be wrong, now you have doubt about LCAs EW, that is clearly superior to Mig 21s or M2Ks in Kargil and all that, only to deny that LCA can't be used in escort roles, as IAF did it with Mig 21s and M2K.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Perfect... " produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce " .. This is catching.. I have always believed that only SAAB will offer "real" TOT and help us in shaping future variants of LCA. Lets see how Modi Govt. responds. One thing is for sure, if Dassault does not offer significant TOT, they are not going to get this deal.

The Rafale ToT negotiations are all over. They have offered what they can and we have accepted it. Nothing more can be got.

The RFP had defined the broad areas for ToT and they are in compliance. Its too late to change the rule of the game.

 

[jha]

The Rafale ToT negotiations are all over. They have offered what they can and we have accepted it. Nothing more can be got.

The RFP had defined the broad areas for ToT and they are in compliance. Its too late to change the rule of the game.

Its never too late.

 

[sancho]

That means for 120 planes(5th gen) the cost is 21 billion dollars. Then why we are going to purchase 126 planes(4.5gen) for 30-40 billion dollars?
Please ignore my ignorance!!

First of all, we pay something between $12 and 20 billion, depending on which fighter finally is chosen, secondly we want licence production under ToT, which is not on offer with F35, especially not with critical ToT, which was even a problem for the US M-MRCA participants. And the funny thing is, that F35 might be rejected by IAF for not even fitting to the basic requirements of TWR or G-Limits. So you can't compare the procurement of S. Korea with our competition, since the priorities were different. If they had the same as we have, they would had chosen the EF, since the industrial package was reportedly far better.

Perfect... " produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce " .. This is catching.. I have always believed that only SAAB will offer "real" TOT and help us in shaping future variants of LCA. Lets see how Modi Govt. responds. One thing is for sure, if Dassault does not offer significant TOT, they are not going to get this deal.

Licence production of Rafale by HAL, Reliance, BEL, Samtel, Tata... => make in India with Indian workforce!

RBE 2 AESA full ToT to BEL, FSO ToT to Samtel, M88 ToT to HAL, can Saab offer the same without approval of foreign governments, or more significant ToT?

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Licence production of Rafale by HAL, Reliance, BEL, Samtel, Tata... => make in India with Indian workforce!

RBE 2 AESA full ToT to BEL, FSO ToT to Samtel, M88 ToT to HAL, can Saab offer the same without approval of foreign governments, or more significant ToT?

Are you aware that RBE2 AESA full ToT means that GaN txRx modules are imported and assembled together in BEL. The Chips are imported. Only the Circuit board is made here and BEL assembles all together. They then load the software which is provided and test it.

The day they stop exporting the GaN modules, we cannot manufacture them "indigenously" any-more.

In all probability the blades for M88 will be imported and assembled in HAL and that is the extend of "indigenous" manufacturing of the Engine. The day they stop exporting those blades, we cannot manufacture the engines any more.

How is that any different from directly importing the Radar and Engines ?

If you have any solid proof that we are going to manufacture engine blades from raw material, please share that.

 

[halloweene]

Bharat forge will. But why not ask them directly?

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Bharat forge will. But why not ask them directly?

Do they have any experience in supplying blades for aircraft turbine engines ?

 

[halloweene]

No, i'm just citing a reliable french press source. They didt even name Bharat btw, but i think they are the only indian company building parts for BMW.
Experience is gained through work.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

No, i'm just citing a reliable french press source. They didt even name Bharat btw, but i think they are the only indian company building parts for BMW.
Experience is gained through work.

LOL. You say that because you do not know how HAL operates. Once HAL starts buying blades from France, it will never bother to buy from Indian suppliers.

No unless france puts sanctions on us.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Just as the Su 30 had and still it was not used for escort missions, so it's not the capability of the fighter in general that counts, but the low detectability isn't it?

Dear sancho

SU 30 K didnt have isreali EW suite rather SU 30 mki did which was nt involve in the exercise

Su-30 FLANKER

Low detectibilty = MIg 21 =Rofl

plus what was it's opponent F15c = Mega rofl

Because IAF used always had dedicated EA and SEAD support strike missions...
...oh wait, they didn't!

who was our primary enemy in our previous aerial wars what was their capabilty & what was the style of warfare at that time

plus Have you heard anything about El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod

ELTA MAKES SOME INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE ELECTRONIC WARAFARE & JAMMING PODS | AviationIntel.com

i wonder which plane in IAF it is used & for what



plus why are we buying rafale then better ask yourselves & primarily against which new bigger threat in mind

how did that plane achieved SEAD mission so comfortably in LIBYA due to which system it has

So again you are claiming things that have nothing to do with each other. First it was the lack of missile carrying capability and IRST, when that was proven to be wrong, now you have doubt about LCAs EW, that is clearly superior to Mig 21s or M2Ks in Kargil and all that, only to deny that LCA can't be used in escort roles, as IAF did it with Mig 21s and M2K.

1st of all those things are also important becoz
you better check all those fighters which are in air escort mission like all euro canards fighters for eg

what is their most favourable payload in escort mission
a) maximum no of air to air missiles, as their job is to escort planes & to escort them against whom ??obviously enemy aerial threats & how would do they do it by shooting them right !!!
How would they shoot it ?? obviously by missiles
so having more missiles is always good as you never how many fighter jets would come against you plus you cannot gaurantee every missile would hit your target

b) IRST = passive detection it is also form of stealth(low detectabilty) right which you are also boasting from the very beginning for those kind of missions right

another embarrasing stuff from your side is during kargil war
MIG 29 provided air escort to Mirage 2k not passive Mirage 2k plus Mirage 2k thanks to self protection suite survived stinger missiles from pak side which unfortunately low observable MIG 21 succumbed

this shows another thing how important a self protection suite of a plane is in combat .It can be
deciding factor just plain LOW observabilty is not deciding factor .



& hilarious stuff
LCA with 3 EFTS in an escort mission in a foreign land= LOw obseravble = Yeah Yeah its LO + L=

Thats why it's LCA EW suite should be equal level to that of all latest EW tech equivalent to all 4.5 gen fighters as facing against enemy's AESA radar awacs / fighter planes /Aerostat /SAM radars is totally different ball game altogether.


"the fact is you are always thinking on one sided point of view , meanwhile ignoring the enemy's capabilty that is your biggest problem"

Tell you what rafale's radar/electronic warfare suite cost is equal to 30% of rafale which makes it nearly half of the price of single LCA mark 1

PARIS AIR SHOW: Rafale's fighting chance

so sincere request to you my dear Good-ol pal sancho kindly dont stretch this issue much further for your own benefit


CHEERS

 

[samy1618]

Are you aware that RBE2 AESA full ToT means that GaN txRx modules are imported and assembled together in BEL. The Chips are imported. Only the Circuit board is made here and BEL assembles all together. They then load the software which is provided and test it.

The day they stop exporting the GaN modules, we cannot manufacture them "indigenously" any-more.

How would you know that the TOT means only assembling of critical imported parts in this case chips N GaN rxtx... And software

In all probability the blades for M88 will be imported and assembled in HAL and that is the extend of "indigenous" manufacturing of the Engine. The day they stop exporting those blades, we cannot manufacture the engines any more.

And in this case tue blades

How is that any different from directly importing the Radar and Engines ?

If you have any solid proof that we are going to manufacture engine blades from raw material, please share that.

And tell me how u get these proofs if u r asking others.. First u reveal ur source N proofs before pointing fingures to other

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

And tell me how u get these proofs if u r asking others.. First u reveal ur source N proofs before pointing fingures to other

Dum dum . I am not the one making claims of ToT here. The one making the claims have to prove it.

 

[samy1618]

Dum dum . I am not the one making claims of ToT here. The one making the claims have to prove it.

Dums really speaks for them selves..isnt it @mokshaVimukhi... Its easy to point figures at others and criticise N contradict each N every stattement but is hard to back ur self with proofs..N again Mr. Dumb how in the right mind would any one make public the whole TOT documemts.. As this is also a closely guarded secret.. Even the TOT of bofor guns was a secret in it self...

 

[jha]

Are you aware that RBE2 AESA full ToT means that GaN txRx modules are imported and assembled together in BEL. The Chips are imported. Only the Circuit board is made here and BEL assembles all together. They then load the software which is provided and test it.

The day they stop exporting the GaN modules, we cannot manufacture them "indigenously" any-more.

In all probability the blades for M88 will be imported and assembled in HAL and that is the extend of "indigenous" manufacturing of the Engine. The day they stop exporting those blades, we cannot manufacture the engines any more.

How is that any different from directly importing the Radar and Engines ?

If you have any solid proof that we are going to manufacture engine blades from raw material, please share that.

We have started manufacturing blades for SU-30 engines. However this has not helped us even one bit in designing the same for Kaveri. They just give us final procedure and do not teach us on how did they arrive at that metallurgy.

French were not ready to help us in Kaveri even when we promised them for co-development instead they wanted us to use Snechma core. It will be quite interesting to see how are they now promising 100% ToT.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Dums really speaks for them selves..isnt it @mokshaVimukhi... Its easy to point figures at others and criticise N contradict each N every stattement but is hard to back ur self with proofs..N again Mr. Dumb how in the right mind would any one make public the whole TOT documemts.. As this is also a closely guarded secret.. Even the TOT of bofor guns was a secret in it self...

You should ask that to Sancho you freaking Moron .... he is the one who is making all those tall claims.

We have started manufacturing blades for SU-30 engines. However this has not helped us even one bit in designing the same for Kaveri. They just give us final procedure and do not teach us on how did they arrive at that metallurgy.

French were not ready to help us in Kaveri even when we promised them for co-development instead they wanted us to use Snechma core. It will be quite interesting to see how are they now promising 100% ToT.

To manufacture super alloys that goes into making turbine blades we need a steady supply of Rare earth metals. 90% of which comes from China .

Even for the SU-30, I suspect the alloys are imported from russia. I have not come across any Indian company who makes these super alloys, much less manufacture blades out of them.

Most of thee ToT is just screw driver technology. Most people are just too dumb to realise that. The only way you can build your own plane is by having your own R&D. There are no short cuts.