Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[DrSomnath999]

UPSTREAM STUDIES
Developments for the Rafale

TWO PEA INTENDED TO IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE OF FRENCH AIR COMBAT IN DETECTION AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE.

The need for export support overcomes the cult of confidentiality that usually accompanies the evolution of programmed Rafâle.An Paris Air Show, the Directorate General of Armaments and presented at its stand two upstream study program (PEA ). currently funded. to improve the performance of the French fighter in the detection and electronic warfare.

INCAS
It was, for the first time presented to the public a PEA called Incas (Integration of new capabilities to Spectra), which has two sub-parts. One, we have already presented several
, rçprises "in" An & Cosmos "■ focuses on the development of a new antenna operating Spectra gallium nitride (GaN).



Unpublished, the LEA (active electromagnetic Lure) project was, however, presented for the first time at the Paris Air This involves the development of a deployable asset lure that would confuse the seeker of some air missiles -air in their terminal phase guidage.At least four decoys could be carried away by a rafale in the same location as the current chaff at the rear of the fuselage. Contrary to that team for example "Eurofighter, this lure would be towed by the plane, but dropped: he would not have either of propellant.

"Such a system would effectively complete the Spectra system, already integrated in the aircraft, to thwart some very specific threats such as homing air-to-air missiles operating in the Ka band," says, in the lounge, an engineer of armament .

The DGA had also for the first time, called PEA Tragédac. Notified in 2010, it aims to equip the Rafale with a capacity of passive target localization thanks to a set of device network had the same patrol. Specifically, two Rafale detecting a target

through either their frontal sector optronics (OSF) or Spectra could improve the positional accuracy of their aim or exchanging data via the link 16 A change purely logicicllc but, according to DGA. would be especially complex to implement the point of view of the data synchronization between the devices.The first test flights should start by year-end to collect data


CARAA
Even if they were not presented at Le Bourget, others are now turning PEA consulting firms Dassault and program partners. This is the case of PEA Caraa (additional capabilities for radar â active antenna), awarded to Thales in late 2011 and aims to put the develop a material modification to the radar to make it more efficient to face evolving threats has low speed and low altitude, but also to make it capable of detecting ground targets.

From a technical perspective, the idea is to divide the large antenna subsets, each consisting of a few hundred transceiver modules each of these subsets then enjoying a digitizing the signal that would be her own. So that today, all Elements, radiant are ultimately combined into one lane.Thales should test flight, the 2014-2015 horizon. Such an amendment to aidc of one of its prototypes RBE2-AESA.

DEDIRA
Top Secret, PEA Dédira (demonstrator Rafale discretion) does. however, been no communication the living room, and has also never been formally addressed. This work, aimed at improving stealth Rafale, however, subject of a major fundraising effort for several years, corroborating sources, raw changes should be tested shortly size, are they? Mystery ...

 

[DrSomnath999]

Guess why the IAF used the Flankers seperated from the Mig 27s and why the Bisons escorted them? IAF could simply had used the Flankers to escort and provide radar data right? So when they purposely decided to seperate the mini AWACS from the strike package and their escorts, do you really think that was done for no reason?
The fact is right there, even in your own sources, you just have to understand that the priority is to remain undetected as long as possible when you send strike packages behind enemy lines and remaining behind and support them "just" with radar data without making them vulnerable is the better thing to do. As I said before, that changes only with FGFA, since we then can modify the tactics benefiting from the low detectability of the fighter even in active roles.

The problem is you are not posting anything to support your claim of "Mini AWACS cant be used in offensive mission" & also you cant

What You are posting has nothing to do with your prevoius claims of"Mini AWACS cant be used in offensive mission"
rather the source says the mini awacs plane is diverted from strike package to prevent detection of strike package

so does that mean MINI AWACS cant be used in enemy air space

If yes then i am wasting my time replying you

Please read up propperly and don't invent things. Where in that post did I mention Chinese airspace? I only related the same tactics IAF has shown in that exercise with older fighters, to the future fighter fleet and the modern capabilities it will have. And LCA as the replacement of the Mig 21s, but with far better passive detection and low detectability can easily take over the escort role in future, that however doesn't mean that IAF would use deep penetration missions against China, where simply more Rafales would be more effective.

embarrasingly
i am not the one which is inventing things rather you are inventing it

as who wrotes this

So diverting that to the future IAF fleet, one could use LCA for escorting Rafale strike packages (both passive), while radar data of AWACS or active fighters, that operates outside of the enemy airspace, will be diverted by datalinks.

Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 667

Escorting rafale strike packages where ?????
in pakistan or china you should have specified it as our previous discussion where china centric so how the
hell i know you were not mentioning china???

plus pakistan also when you have more capable Su30mki or rafale itself in order to escort rafale strike packages why would someone use LCA which can only carry limited no of BVRAAMS with EFTS with no internal IRST / RWR targeting capabilty even if it may have less RCS than Su30mki

Exactly, that's why IRST won't make a difference unless you have detected a target, be it via radar or signals. Only then you point your nose and sensors towards the target to identify it. That's why an FGFA with an AESA that has LPI modes will be very hard to detect by any Chinese fighter, unless it flys head to head in a very close distance. The importance of AWACS and mini AWACS however is, to detect a target at long distance and to a wide field of view, that's why they use active radar and passive RWRs as their main sensors and not IRST.
.

again the same old crap

i have said repeatedly that AESA tech remains the same for any gen fighter whther 4th or 5th gen fighter
it applies for LPI also
So why are you beleiving 5th gen fighter when in active mode wouldnt alert the enemy AWACS RWR or plane 's RWR meanwhile 4th gen fighter when in active mode would do it

So being passive in 1st place should be smart thing when your on a stealth mission deep into enemy land.

becoz to be in active mode your enemy would be alerted about you even if they cant detect you from a long range .That is not the priority for those kind of missions
& this sentence from yours proves it
"Exactly, that's why IRST won't make a difference unless you have detected a target, be it via radar or signals."

& sadly majority of chinese fighters now have IRST

Again please read propperly, in this case the part I quoted from you, where you stated:



So that is the part I refered to be wrong, which it clearly is, since the importance of improved strike capabilities with MMRCA and MKI beyond the borders can't actually be denied anymore and I am not even talking about cruise missiles, but about actual offensive strikes of the fighters, no matter what kind of weapon they will use.

sadly i can twist the same logic to you with enemy with improved detection capabililty

&
when you say improved strike capabilties
1st thing comes in my mind is it's Air to ground capabilties though other factors are also there



but Rafale is specialist in it than Su 30mki in that department though both have their advantages & disadvantages

one thing i like to ask can SU 30mki carry Scalp cruise missile on it's wings like rafale


P.S really boring for me to replying this kind of posts

CHEERS

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Took a break from PDF and when today i read through feeling a bit sad. We have still not closed rafale deal, still no clarity on FGFA nor about submarines . The Tejas MKII or MK1 FOC is still realistically long way off.

Oddly i dont understand one thing. Do GOI believes we need a capable Indian Air Force or do they feel we can just be the same way as we are at present? I thot the new government would close the deal and step up the speed in all defence matters... but sadly the speed is still not optimum. So many newsreports always citing odd figures of rafale price (16/20/22/24/28/30 Bn $$.. lol) and awesome discounts in eurofighters as if its a diwali sale on fighter jets. (Can u believe diwali sale on eurofighter??). and media as usual goes gaga over that not understanding why that same price was not in tender but now (just like cameron saying more power to scotland 2 days before the vote to swing the NO vote.

whats the future? we cant close this deal or what???

 

[sancho]

The problem is you are not posting anything to support your claim of "Mini AWACS cant be used in offensive mission"

No, the problem is that you ignore that it's the low detectability that has prime importance for offensive operations and not having an active radar. That's why you don't understand that using the mini AWACS tactics in offensive operations without having a 5th gen fighter, makes the strike package vulnerable. That's the reason why AWACS aircrafts or our Su 30s in that role, are used from defensive positions in safe distance to the enemy, seperated from other fighters in different missions. That's also why passive Mig 21s were used to escort strike packages (and not Su 30) in the Cope exercise, while the Su 30s played the mini AWACS role, or why M2Ks in A2A config escorted M2Ks and Jags in strike during Kargil war, while the more capable Mig 29s (better radar, IRST, can carry more missiles) provided only top cover and why in a future mission LCA could be used for escorts (rather than Su 30s), using the same advantage of low detectability too.
That's also why you don't understand, that it doesn't matter IF an Su30 would get an AESA with LPI modes comparable to FGFA, because it's the low detectability (to radar and IR sensors) that gives FGFA the advantage to be used in offensive mini AWACS roles, because it's far more difficult to detect, even if operated at high altitudes. It can fly next or even in front of the strike package and would neither expose itself, nor make the strike package more vulnerable, contrary to the Su 30. That's why the latter will be used with the mini AWACS tactics only as shown above from defensive positions.
Ignoring that fact, although we have several even operational examples of IAF, how to use the tactics or how the fighters will be used according to their advantages, don't really make you understand things.

 

[osama zafar]

JF-17 <3

 

[DrSomnath999]

No, the problem is that you ignore that it's the low detectability that has prime importance for offensive operations and not having an active radar.That's why you don't understand that using the mini AWACS tactics in offensive operations without having a 5th gen fighter, makes the strike package vulnerable.

& you ignore that low detectabilty is compromised when you are using an active radar(i.e turned on) no matter whether it is AESA or PESA) against an enemy having AWACS or jets with EM emission detection capabilty through their ESM (RWR)

as it can alert your adversary about something flying in the air .Then it would guide the IRST equipped planes to that direction .& then it can detect you no matter your stealthy or not if your are still in active mode

That's the reason why AWACS aircrafts or our Su 30s in that role, are used from defensive positions in safe distance to the enemy, seperated from other fighters in different missions.

yes !!! that the point separated from other fighters which includes in enemy land also & applicable to 4th/5th gen fighters also
& what your stating is this scenario is only applicable in one's own land i.e non sense

That's also why passive Mig 21s were used to escort strike packages (and not Su 30) in the Cope exercise, while the Su 30s played the mini AWACS role, or why M2Ks in A2A config escorted M2Ks and Jags in strike during Kargil war, while the more capable Mig 29s (better radar, IRST, can carry more missiles) provided only top cover and why in a future mission LCA could be used for escorts (rather than Su 30s), using the same advantage of low detectability too.

Those examples wont work against an enemy having AWACS Aerostats or planes with IRST

F15c were not having those
plus MIg 21 also had advantage of isreali EW suite

M2ks also have advantge of better EW & self protection suite

& for lca mark1 in escort mission in a foreign land it has to field a simliar quality of EW suite as it has to carry 3 efts for that ,so how much RCS it would have you can calculate yourselfs

That's also why you don't understand, that it doesn't matter IF an Su30 would get an AESA with LPI modes comparable to FGFA, because it's the low detectability (to radar and IR sensors) that gives FGFA the advantage to be used in offensive mini AWACS roles, because it's far more difficult to detect, even if operated at high altitudes. It can fly next or even in front of the strike package and would neither expose itself, nor make the strike package more vulnerable, contrary to the Su 30. That's why the latter will be used with the mini AWACS tactics only as shown above from defensive positions.

LLOLLZ

seriously FGFA with it's radar active (i.e turnon) can fly next to it strike package would neither expose itself nor make the strike package vulnerable .

against plane with IRST (180 focal plane with long wave IR seeker IRST with multiple targeting cueing abilty) or with RWR targetting capability , after being guided by AWACS ESM systems

Sure try it & see what happens next

plus i have not mentioned VHF SAM radar part also in case the chinese may have fielded it

The thing is still US is investing EA 18 growler as it knows stealth is not enough

F-35′s Stealth, EW Not Enough, So JSF And Navy Need Growlers; Boeing Says 50-100 More « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

plus i still beleive had EA 18 aircraft is being used in serbia wars no F117 plane have been shot down

Ignoring that fact, although we have several even operational examples of IAF, how to use the tactics or how the fighters will be used according to their advantages, don't really make you understand things.

and again before lecturing me about aviation plz check those operational examples what are they applicable for i.e


a) for specific location eg in your own homeland where you have the numbers adavanatge 3:1

b) for specific threats /opponent eg ill equipped adversary with no AWACS/ no IRST / No EA aircraft




sadly which china wont be having



P.S A sincere request to you stop PM ing me & i would be rather embarassing myself indeed if i agree with so called jingoistic claims of LCA mark1 escorting rafale in strike packages in foreign land without any dedicated EA aircraft or after SEAD.

oh yes if you want me to back off indeed then plz stop quoting my post .There is a thin line for me between patience / annoyance if we stretch too much on this topic



CHEERS

 

[DrSomnath999]

M88 test engine to engine fire

Operations in Libya have shown: the engine Rafale can hold a candle to any other Western engine. Snecma and other developments in his sleeve.

This is an engine that has reached the age of maturity. The M88 jet engine, which powers the Rafale, n! Not be ashamed of comparison with its American cousins. Last year, the operations in Libya was a true rite of passage for the jet engine Snecma. "The M88 has largely met our expectations," summed does one to SIMMAD (integrated structure operational maintenance of flight equipment for the defense), "we even consumed less potential than expected, because the missions included many phases conveyor.

The engine also performs well in high temperature conditions. as shown by the operations on the basis of Al Dhafra. the United Arab Emirates. "Snecma side, the balance of Libyan operations is also positive: "There were no problems, and coordination with the forces was excellent," said Didier Desnoyers, Director of Military Engines Division at Snecma. A positive experience which helped return address with serenity commissioning,

last spring, the new standard TCO Pack (for total cost of ownership) or M88-4E. It extends the shelf life of certain parts critically in the hot parts. For now, a dozen M88 brought to this standard in the forces, by installing new parts during maintenance operations.

Standard production.

Meanwhile, the M88-4E became, in May, the only standard production factory in Melun-Viliaroche.

Since sixteen engines of this type have been delivered to Dassault Aviation. And the delivery of the first nine Rafale equipped M88-4E engines, expected shortly.

60% in more potential.

If the TCO Pack standard does not change the performance of the engine, it is nevertheless an important development at the operational level. Indeed, no less than 20% of the engine are modified, with improvements in the stator and rotor modules party high pressure (HP). Hence intervals elongated inspection. Referring to the NATO standard Tactical Air Cycle (TAC), which counts the number of "pulses on the throttle" that can be given to a motor between each inspection, the M88 passes a TAC 2500 cycles 4000 cycles. This leads him to the same level as the engines of the F-16 or F / A-18 American. "Basically, it was 60% more potential on parts that require more maintenance, "summed does one to SIMMAD. where it is envisaged that all the M88 in service are made to the standard TCO Pack in four to five years.

Yet this standard will not be the last step in the evolution of the engine Rafale. "The M88 is a product we want to continue to evolve," says Didier Desnoyer. And therefore, may benefit in the coming years, the results of Theo, a technology acquisition program launched in 2003 and financed fi by DGA, to develop new technology of high pressure turbine. "We have already set pieces that would be to increase the engine thrust or her life, knowing that the latter option has already been covered with the Pack program CGP. says the Director of Military Snecma. These parts, which concern the high pressure turbine, have yet to be validated and should be bench testing in the coming years with a view to possible implementation in 2015 "We weapon the future, and increased thrust is a natural evolution for a fighter jet "engine, said Didier Desnoyer.

Do more push.

For the record. Snecma had already, in the past, proposed a more powerful version of the M88, dubbed M88-9. and whose unit with reheat thrust increased from 7.65 tonnes to 9 tonnes, as part of a request from the United Arab Emirates. Since then the project has been set side, knowing that the Air Force and Navy were also reluctant to the idea: "By increasing the pressure" could have consumed all the gain of CGP pack in terms of potential, which we were not interested , "says one in the forces. Snecma side, it ensures that the gain would have been "isocost" in terms of maintenance costs. Still, these new improvements should not affect the engine's potential. That could push the military to reconsider their judgment ...

IN BLUE BOX

India's hopes
On the sidelines of the M88, Snecma is still considering a possible collaboration with the Indians on a derivative thereof. "It's been a while since we discussed the Kaveri program. Idea is to create a joint development on an engine from September to October tons of thrust that would use high-pressure parts of the M88 adapted to new parts at low pressure, "says Didier Desnoyer. Difficult to know more, but the direction of Snecma recognizes that in addition to Indian laboratory GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment), an Indian manufacturer is also involved in
the discussions that take place in a "very good climate of transparency."

Snecma, it insists that these negotiations are not related to the sale of Rafale in India. "These discussions have begun well before the selection of the aircraft," the motorist. But as Dassault Aviation, Snecma preparing technology transfer and industrial offsets for the M88. "There, it does not act to develop an engine with the Indians, but to allow them to produce the M88 at home.



Julian Francis

 

[DrSomnath999]

Rafale deal may be signed by Dec
24 September 2014, New Delhi, Pinaki Bhattacharya



Indian government’s contract negotiation committee (CNC) for the medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), Rafale, has been given the draft contract document by the French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault. A top level Indian Air Force (IAF) source, while confirming this, said that they expect that the deal could be signed by December this year.

Long in negotiations, the contract is in the final stages of price fixing, the official said. According to him, the CNC will arrive at two prices at the end of talks. One will be ‘direct’ price, which will be actual cost of whole 126 aircraft the IAF plans to get – 18 in flyaway condition directly from Dassault, and 108 produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The other is Life Cycle Costing (LCC), which will cover the whole life of the aircraft in service with the IAF. This would include maintenance cost, overhauling costs among others.

The IAF sources complained about efforts by some Indians to sow doubts and make the IAF leadership ‘weak-kneed’ by publicising wrong information in sections of the media ‘at the behest of a foreign competitor’.

The other key element of the deal is the licence manufacture deal between Dassault and the HAL. There were large number of issues that were technology related. A senior HAL source stated: ‘Now those issues have been boiled down to two or three. They would also be taken care of soon.’

One gets a sense from all these conversations, that the IAF has got a signal from the political leadership of the government that it is now on more than ‘a wing and a prayer’. In other words, the force has got a green signal from the government to go ahead with the deal.

The senior official said that since the LCC has been in negotiation for the MMRCA, the same formula has been applied to 19 other vendors, including the Russians, and none of them had complained about the sanctity of the LCC. ‘Any of them could have taken us to court, if we were in the wrong.’

The first air assets that have been delivered under the LCC formula have been the Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA), the Pilatus PC 7.

They are already flying in large numbers. ‘We were sure that we were in the right track when ministry of finance cleared our pricing, and it was sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security,’ the official said.
Rafale deal may be signed by Dec | Millennium Post

 

[SpArK]

France's Rafales Are The First Non-U.S. Planes To Draw Blood Over Iraq

France become the first country other than the US to attack ISIS targets in Iraq. Their Rafales carried out a raid on munitions depot and staging area in the northeast part of the country that supposedly killed dozens of ISIS fighters.

This comes after France pledged last week that it would support the anti-ISIS campaign with material and surveillance flights.

A pair of Rafales, apparently based out of Al Dhafra Air Base in the UAE, armed with four GBU-12 500lb laser guided bombs, were used on the raid. In addition, French KC-135Rs tankers andAtlantique II maritime surveillance and attack aircraft (yes they can carry bombs and missiles and were used in Mali to attack targets) also appear to be part of the French contingent to this as yet to be named international operation.

According to French President Francois Hollande:

The target was entirely destroyed... Other operations will follow in the coming days.

This will be the first time France has flown fighters over Iraq for well over a decade and a half, as they were not part of George W. Bush's 'Coalition Of The Willing' that took part in the 2003 invasion and the almost decade long (and should have been much longer) chaotic stabilization efforts that followed.

France's Rafales Are The First Non-U.S. Planes To Draw Blood Over Iraq

 

[thesolar65]

S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets
S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets - Yahoo News

That means for 120 planes(5th gen) the cost is 21 billion dollars. Then why we are going to purchase 126 planes(4.5gen) for 30-40 billion dollars?
Please ignore my ignorance!!

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets
S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets - Yahoo News

That means for 120 planes(5th gen) the cost is 21 billion dollars. Then why we are going to purchase 126 planes(4.5gen) for 30-40 billion dollars?
Please ignore my ignorance!!

Traditional pricing of any US aircraft is without the Engine. The Engine costs extra.

Pratt & Whitney F135 engine cost somewhere between 14 million to 34 Million $ EACH

Not to mention the lifetime maintenance cost.

 

[raazh]

France's Rafales Are The First Non-U.S. Planes To Draw Blood Over Iraq

I dont get the idea of glamorizing fighter planes on bombing runs of targets with zero resistance or retaliation threat. I mean how is this different to any other training mission inside France ?? I bet they could easily hit the same targets with cessna planes and unguided dumb bombs. Same goes for the USAF when they claim success rates for hitting targets in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[halloweene]

i understand your point of view, but.
Simply put you there is already simple news. Better feed media with that than pure speculations (we are nearly as good as indians on speculations, quickly leading to criticisms). Also prepare opinion for future strikes in Syria. One hostage was beheaded yesterday. Third point is to show that with limited means in Al Dhafra you can hit far from it.

 

[sancho]

@jha you will love this :

Saab offers #MakeinIndia plan for the Gripen

Saab's Lars-Olof Lindgren says his company has been quietly working on a plan to build the Gripen in India and has already done a lot of the homework for it.

The Swedish defense and aviation company Saab has offered to make its Gripen fighter in India.

Chairman of Saab India, Lars-Olof Lindgren told StratPost about his company’s intention to offer the aircraft for production in India.

This comes at a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi has begun a campaign to encourage manufacturing industry, particularly foreign companies, to ‘Make in India’.

“We are prepared to set up a joint venture company in India and produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce. You see the mix of a large number of Indian well-educated highly-skilled engineers and Sweden’s high technology in the field of aerospace – it’s a perfect match,” said Lindgren, a former Swedish ambassador to India...

...“We were working hard to be considered in the MMRCA. We regret that we were not selected, but we have full respect for the Indian decision and the Indian process and we are not pitching at all, against that...

Saab offers #MakeinIndia plan for the Gripen (+ Video) | StratPost


So more chances for the MoD to delay another procurement?

 

[jha]

@jha you will love this :



Saab offers #MakeinIndia plan for the Gripen (+ Video) | StratPost


So more chances for the MoD to delay another procurement?

Perfect... " produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce " .. This is catching.. I have always believed that only SAAB will offer "real" TOT and help us in shaping future variants of LCA. Lets see how Modi Govt. responds. One thing is for sure, if Dassault does not offer significant TOT, they are not going to get this deal.