Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

so your POV is rafale' " AASM is the only factor "& spectra EW suite had no role in it's low obseravilty during those sead mission in libya

...another typical example that shows how you jump around with your claims! You asked how Rafale did SEAD and which system was the key to do that mission and when the answer turned out to be different from what you expected, you jump to another issue (low obseravilty during the mission), which has nothing to do with your initial question.
But to answer this question too, no low observability had no role in that mission, because the stand off range of AASM was enough to remain in safe distance to the air defences, that's why the attack reportedly was done from high altitudes, to gain maximum stand off range for the weapon and not from low altitude to be less observable. Please read up the following and understand the importance of AASM here:

Rafale News: Libya, AASM sead capability demonstrated (2)

The EW sensors and jammers were useful to detect and avoid air defences in any missions, just as DASS did it for the EF, but the key to do the SEAD attack mission was the AASM!

and the fact is you still post wrong info even if it is passive or not that Mirage 2k provided air escort to mirage 2k which is totally wrong as it aint as MIG 29 provided air escort in kargil war

Source: vayu aerospace report "The Mirage 2000+LGB= Victory"


Another of your desperate claims busted, but you surely will find a way to distract from this mistake too.

 

[sancho]

Anyone else notice that whislt the Rafale has taken part in Libya, Iraq/ISIS And Afghan air strikes the RAF has on each occasion elected to chose the Tornado over the Eurofighter Typhoon? And back in 2011 it was said the EFT's A2G capabilities hadn't been developed enough and 3 years later nothing has changed?

I'm sorry but this DOES say a lot about the two birds and further vindicates the IAF's selection.

Hehe, all it says is, that if you have a dedicated strike aircraft, that is cheaper to operate and suitable enough for this basic task of dropping LGBs, you use that, rather than your most capable fighters. Rafale on the other side is used, because it can carry twice the LGB load than a Mirage 2000 and today even at similar operational costs. If IAF would be included in the strikes, they wouldn't use MKIs either, but Jags or even LCA MK1 (if smaller LGBs would be integrated yet), so it's more about operational benefits of the force, rather than of the fighter.

Major fault in Eurofighter manufacturing?

Nothing major:

Google translated:

Mystery of faulty holes in the Euro Fighter

For over ten years the Euro Fighter is produced in series. Good 410 copies of the fighter jets have been delivered since then. But now shaken a quality problem, the industry consortium of four European countries. The British company BAE Systems only now found a manufacturing defect in numerous holes on the rear fuselage of the jet. The holes were "insufficient deburred", ie not treated the well properly. Affected are all previously delivered as contained in the production aircraft of all Euro-Fighter Nations, according to a letter from Defence Secretary Mark Gruebel, the present of the "world"...The error was not discovered by the customers, but obviously by the manufacturer...

Google Übersetzer


No operational issue or so, but a minor quality issue of BAEs production line as it seems, since the holes are correct but not propperly treated.

 

[sancho]

This also explains why the RAF prefers the Tornado in Iraq:

Brimstone: British missile envied by the US for war on Isil

America was keen for Britain to join air strikes against Isil because of its unique Brimstone missile, according to Whitehall sources

When the United States asked the RAF to join air strikes against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil), Pentagon commanders had one particular weapon they wanted the British to bring.

American defence chiefs had already seen the formidable Brimstone missile at work in Libya during the 2011 campaign against Col Muammar Gaddafi’s regime and wanted to use it against Isil, according to Whitehall sources.

The unique British-made missile is now the most sophisticated of its kind being used in the air campaign to support Iraqi and Kurdish forces battling the militants.

"Two Tornado GR4s from RAF Akrotiri, conducted an armed reconnaissance mission in support of Iraqi government forces west of Baghdad.

"They were tasked to examine a location suspected of being used as an Isil command and control position. At the scene they were able to identify Isil activity and two vehicles, one of which was an armed pick up truck.

"Four Brimstone missiles were used to conduct a precision attack on the vehicles. Initial analysis indicates that the strikes were successful..."

Brimstone: British missile envied by the US for war on Isil - Telegraph

Brimstone is not integrated in EF yet, but this crisis might further speed up the integration now.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Brimstone is not integrated in EF yet, but this crisis might further speed up the integration now.

Doubtful sir. There have been no indications the UK govt or any other partner nation is willing to do anything of the sort in fact the Germans seems to be looking for any opportunity to bail.

 

[jha]

Wow... Just look at this beauty.... Wonderful...

 

[sancho]

Doubtful sir. There have been no indications the UK govt or any other partner nation is willing to do anything of the sort in fact the Germans seems to be looking for any opportunity to bail.

Have you forgot this?:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 638


The plan was to integrate Brimstone 2 till 2018, although the studies also evaluate the modification of the missile to use it on the SPEAR 3 quad launchers. It's logical to use the same launcher for Brimstone and SPEAR 3, so the quad launcher could had been a reason to delay things till 2018, but now IS might force a faster integration of the missile with the normal triple launcher that Dassault wanted for Rafale too.
Btw, Germany is not important wrt EF upgrades, they won't even play any important role in NATO conflicts, unless Europe or the US are under attack. UK is the driver for EF upgrades and their plans for 2018 -2020 are very good. The funny thing is, the more the F35 is delayed and the more cost issues it has, the more likely the UK will spend on EF upgrades again.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Have you forgot this?:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 638


The plan was to integrate Brimstone 2 till 2018, although the studies also evaluate the modification of the missile to use it on the SPEAR 3 quad launchers. It's logical to use the same launcher for Brimstone and SPEAR 3, so the quad launcher could had been a reason to delay things till 2018, but now IS might force a faster integration of the missile with the normal triple launcher that Dassault wanted for Rafale too.
Btw, Germany is not important wrt EF upgrades, they won't even play any important role in NATO conflicts, unless Europe or the US are under attack. UK is the driver for EF upgrades and their plans for 2018 -2020 are very good. The funny thing is, the more the F35 is delayed and the more cost issues it has, the more likely the UK will spend on EF upgrades again.

Sir, I was stating my opinion that it is highly unlikely integration will be sped up NOT that integration will take place (at some point).

I think as far as the RAF and future upgrades go, one has to hold back enthusiasm until the 2015 SDSR as this could either kill or fast track said upgrades.

Anyway, all this hoopla further vindicates the IAF's decision on the Rafale......

 

[jha]

Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org

 

[The Unnamed]

Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org

Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org

Jha ji, do u know how the leading gulf countries acquire latest tech in large numbers of minimum 30-40 fighters ?

this deal will pull back on money if we make just 26 planes...perfect to learn all that you wanna know if u r capable.

i wish Modi ji would buy 100 off france in a course of 5 years with penalties for delay clause in the contract..then this deal will come down by atleast...atlleast 25% with hard bargaining.

 

[Taygibay]

Bold excerpts from the above IDRW document :

Dassault is not owner of the tech in the GaN sensors ( not exactly chips themselves ) but Thales is so that it should have read : Rafale International not Dassault, the kind of subtleties I long debated here with someone. And even then the maker, United Monolithic Semi-conductors / UMS is a joint venture of Thales and EADS, the company that sells the ... Typhoon!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/p10-13_criticalmaterial_final.pdf



Eurofighter has come back into the reckoning to open the second paragraph is laughable

Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF Prioritising Acquisition and Modernisation

I guess the thinkers in that tank know more than Air Chief Marshal Raha, who is also Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CCoSC) and accordingly who coordinates modernisation of the armed forces with the Chiefs of Staff of Navy and Army ???



“Take the case of the AESA ... radar enabling combat planes to shift between ground attack and air-to-air interception roles.” Someone who makes that mistake is not qualified to talk about modern fighters. A PESA does exactly what that sentence describes. The AESA does it faster and can be divide into lobes that actually do both at once within assigned sectors with ECM thrown in.



I’ll pass under silence his assessment of the Typhoon strewn with exaggerations, poor fat lass except where he says “Further, the Eurofighter, like the Rafale, has found no buyers because it represents obsolete technology.” LOL ROFL ETC What??? Not only was the Typhoon sold to Austria and Saudi Arabia but the Oman procurement is still alive! And if the Typhie is obsolete tech, the IAF should junk all planes below the SU_MKI right now!!! The only thing more recent is not functional yet for Pete’s sake!



The rest is argumentative so I won’t comment but being based on so many untruths, it is hard to see how an honest result could come out of it.



Pitiful.

Good day all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

I think as far as the RAF and future upgrades go, one has to hold back enthusiasm until the 2015 SDSR as this could either kill or fast track said upgrades.

Why should they kill upgrades for the EF, that already are going on? Not going to happen, Meteor, Storm Shadow and Brimstone 2 will come whatsover, what's open is AESA, CFTS and SPEAR 3, but even the early upgrade will be a credible push for the EF and by 2019 it could be even ahead of Rafale.

Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org

As if idrw alone is not enough reason to not read the article, but when I saw that they quoted Bharat Karnad, I stopped directly. One unreliable source, quoting a man who continuously proves that he is biased and has no idea what he is talking about.

 

[sancho]

Sir, I was stating my opinion that it is highly unlikely integration will be sped up

...Typhoon can carry Paveways, but the contract for integration of Storm Shadow on the platform was only signed mid-year. Meanwhile, BAE Systems is working to complete a £5 million (US$8 million) initial evaluation of the integration of Brimstone 2 on Typhoon. In June, BAE said the initial study should be done next month, and completion of its integration on Typhoon by 2018.

The MoD source said there had been some talk in the ministry recently about speeding up that process.

A BAE spokeswoman said the next step after completion of the study would be the “presentation to the customer and hopefully agreement on a way forward. The timescale is subject to those discussions.”...

To Boost Strike Force, UK Delays Retiring Jets | C4ISR & Networks | c4isrnet.com

 

[Abingdonboy]

To Boost Strike Force, UK Delays Retiring Jets | C4ISR & Networks | c4isrnet.com

I stand corrected sir.

Why should they kill upgrades for the EF, that already are going on?

Sounds illogical right? But welcome to the logic of UK politicians. They killed the Nimrod MRA4 program after having invested more than $2BN into the project and just a few weeks before it was set to enter service. I don't think anything can be ruled out at this point especially not considering elections are coming up and the current government is all about making huge cuts to public expenditure (including defence).

the EF and by 2019 it could be even ahead of Rafale.

In some areas perhaps but then the Rafale project won't be stationary either.

Bold excerpts from the above IDRW document :
Dassault is not owner of the tech in the GaN sensors ( not exactly chips themselves ) but Thales is so that it should have read : Rafale International not Dassault, the kind of subtleties I long debated here with someone. And even then the maker, United Monolithic Semi-conductors / UMS is a joint venture of Thales and EADS, the company that sells the ... Typhoon!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/p10-13_criticalmaterial_final.pdf



Eurofighter has come back into the reckoning to open the second paragraph is laughable

Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF Prioritising Acquisition and Modernisation

I guess the thinkers in that tank know more than Air Chief Marshal Raha, who is also Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CCoSC) and accordingly who coordinates modernisation of the armed forces with the Chiefs of Staff of Navy and Army ???



“Take the case of the AESA ... radar enabling combat planes to shift between ground attack and air-to-air interception roles.” Someone who makes that mistake is not qualified to talk about modern fighters. A PESA does exactly what that sentence describes. The AESA does it faster and can be divide into lobes that actually do both at once within assigned sectors with ECM thrown in.



I’ll pass under silence his assessment of the Typhoon strewn with exaggerations, poor fat lass except where he says “Further, the Eurofighter, like the Rafale, has found no buyers because it represents obsolete technology.” LOL ROFL ETC What??? Not only was the Typhoon sold to Austria and Saudi Arabia but the Oman procurement is still alive! And if the Typhie is obsolete tech, the IAF should junk all planes below the SU_MKI right now!!! The only thing more recent is not functional yet for Pete’s sake!



The rest is argumentative so I won’t comment but being based on so many untruths, it is hard to see how an honest result could come out of it.



Pitiful.

Good day all, Tay.

IDRW are bought out and spout whatever nonsense their backers instruct them to there really was no need to dissect such drivel but nice of you to do so anyway!

 

[sancho]

Sounds illogical right? But welcome to the logic of UK politicians. They killed the Nimrod MRA4 program after having invested more than $2BN into the project and just a few weeks before it was set to enter service.

But that was necessary to reduce the defence budget, the recent EF upgrades however were cleared after that and are cheaper compared to the MPA cost in the mid and long run, let alone far more important.

In some areas perhaps but then the Rafale project won't be stationary either.

But Rafales upgrades are not that big anymore, the F3R is not changing that much and is mainly NATO specific, which leaves the MLU around 2025 to be a real big change. The EF on the other side, is getting credible changes now to catch up with the Rafale, while the EF upgrades around 2019 (especially those of the UK), can make the EF far superior and that's a crucial point now, that the initial RPF timeline can't be met anymore and that we have to look at the capabilities that will be available in 2018/19 now and not in 15/16 as it was planned.

 

[sancho]

The difference of Rafale and EF coming upgrades:

Rafale F3R by 2018

Main changes: additional radar modes, upgraded software and com links, upgraded EW capabilities, new targeting pod, METEOR missile, possibly 2 additional hardpoints for MICA and upgraded MICA and AASM versions

Result => Main improvement in active BVR attacks and laser guided strikes, while the rest are improvements of existing capabilities. No low collateral damage, cost effective weapon or increased range weapon added, to improve CAS or SEAD and still no IRST, HMS or AASM 1000.


EF T3A by 2018

Main changes: upgraded software and com links, upgraded EW capabilities, Paveway 4 LGBs and METEOR missile (both available before 2018), Storm Shadow cruise missiles, Brimstone ATGMs

Result => Main improvements in active BVR attacks, CAS and cruise missile strike capability, which makes it much more multi role capable. Superior to Rafale in CAS, inferior long range cruise missile strikes. Still lacks AESA radar.


Potential later upgrades

EF T3A by 2019/20

Main changes: Swashplate AESA radar, possibly even with Electronic Attack capability and GaN modules, upgraded EW capabilites, CFTs, SPEAR 3 stand off missile

Result => Main improvement state of the art radar, state of the art EW and EA capabilities, free hardpoints and extend range / endurance of operations due to CFTs, stand of precision strike capability for improved SEAD and CAS.


Rafale MLU between 2025 and 30

Main changes: GaN modules for radar, possible conformal arrays, CFTs, weapon pods, upgraded engine, upgraded FSO

Result => Main improvements in RCS reduction, active BVR attacks and general detection



Feel free to add things that I missed, but it shows that the EF is getting a stronger upgrade push in the short to mid term (especially upgrades that would make a difference for India), while the next big upgrade for the Rafale will be the MLU a decade away, which can be a game changer again.