Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[ANPP]

Doesn't matter now,by the time w finalize the deal with the EF 4th gen fighters will become outdated & the deal with dassult is close to being signed,no way we should mess it up

They want to make sure that next time French doesn't reject their proposal......nothing else.

 

[sancho]

Doesn't matter now,by the time w finalize the deal with the EF 4th gen fighters will become outdated & the deal with dassult is close to being signed,no way we should mess it up

Both be it the EF, or the Rafale belong to the most advanced fighters available today, so they won't be outdated for a long time. I also don't think the EF will win, even if the MoD would do a reconsideration, because the cost will remain to be a problem, but that doesn't mean we should not think about it or should ignor facts that changes for the one or the other reasons. The deal is delayed beyond the initial plans, Dassault can't offer certain things today that they promised in their initial bid without adding extra costs, the EF has gotten better to an extend and offers very interesting options in the future. So if we look beyond personal preferences and for the best for India, one at least has to include these changes in the evaluation and then take a decision.

 

[Echo_419]

Both be it the EF, or the Rafale belong to the most advanced fighters available today, so they won't be outdated for a long time. I also don't think the EF will win, even if the MoD would do a reconsideration, because the cost will remain to be a problem, but that doesn't mean we should not think about it or should ignor facts that changes for the one or the other reasons. The deal is delayed beyond the initial plans, Dassault can't offer certain things today that they promised in their initial bid without adding extra costs, the EF has gotten better to an extend and offers very interesting options in the future. So if we look beyond personal preferences and for the best for India, one at least has to include these changes in the

I am all for that Indian should get the best,but you tell me how long will it take us to negotiate the entire deal & then tell me we should even consider EF proposition

 

[sancho]

I am all for that Indian should get the best,but you tell me how long will it take us to negotiate the entire deal & then tell me we should even consider EF proposition

Nobody can tell you that, it might be even faster, since big companies like Airbus or BAE have a much larger base of relations to the Indian industry than Dassault has. They might even find it easier to fix offsets, maybe they even work faster as Dassault did (and 2 years is definitely not a sign for fast procedure), but then again we might get the fighters earlier too, so depending on what is more important to the MoD, the one or the other might be preferable.

 

[Echo_419]

Nobody can tell you that, it might be even faster, since big companies like Airbus or BAE have a much larger base of relations to the Indian industry than Dassault has. They might even find it easier to fix offsets, maybe they even work faster as Dassault did (and 2 years is definitely not a sign for fast procedure), but then again we might get the fighters earlier too, so depending on what is more important to the MoD, the one or the other might be preferable.

That's one Big A$$ IF we are talking about,never mind i think that we should not reevaluate the whole thing which will cause loss of time & money,not to forget it will send a bad example

 

[sancho]

That's one Big A$$ IF we are talking about,never mind i think that we should not reevaluate the whole thing which will cause loss of time & money,not to forget it will send a bad example

You don't have to re-evaluate everything, only inlcude the changes in the latest bids. That's what we had done at the end in the tanker competition too.

 

[Bang Galore]

That's one Big A$$ IF we are talking about,never mind i think that we should not reevaluate the whole thing which will cause loss of time & money,not to forget it will send a bad example

The figure being quoted is 20000 crores as difference. I'm not sure we should worry about setting a bad example.......what kind of example would you set if 20000 crores didn't matter.... It is not as difficult as you imagine to reset the contract. The life cycle calculations have always been confusing & more than one expert including some senior BJP politicians have questioned it. The GoI can raise doubts on the calculations and ask for recalculations of the figure asking both to submit figures again in whatever format is chosen. Allows for both parties to rethink their figures (important that the French too get a 2nd chance with their figures). Committing economic suicide has not been an idea I favour, a difference of Rs.20000 crores is huge especially when you consider that the IAF's entire capital expenses budget for the year is about that figure.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That's what we had done at the end in the tanker competition too.

That's not true. The original tanker competition was scrapped, a new one initiated about 1 year later. So for your suggestion to be feasible the IAF would have to scrap the MMRCA procurement and re-bid it? I'm sorry sir but no matter what way you look at it EFT's revised figures are meaningless and immaterial- the Rafale was selected because EFT 's bid at the time was higher END OF STORY. You can't simply turn around after the date and say "we will now change our bid", this defeats the whole purpose of a CLOSED BID process and undermines the entire MMRCA selection process to date.

Letting the EFT back in now would be opening a can of worms the IAF cannot afford.


It simply won't happen, on paper/in an idealistic person's mind it might seem like a good idea to get the best for India but looking at the big picture it would only hurt India and other defence procurements.

 

[sancho]

That's not true. The original tanker competition was scrapped, a new one initiated about 1 year later. So for your suggestion to be feasible the IAF would have to scrap the MMRCA procurement and re-bid it?

Only because MoD tried to get Boeing into the competition, because their tanker would had fulfilled the requirements too, which either would had forced the Airbus to lower their own cost or had opened a 2nd real MRTT as an option. The point however is, there was no complete new evalutaion, they only included the life cycle calculation to the new bids and then took a decision.
In the MMRCA we already know that only 2 fighters fulfill the requirements and even in 2018 that won't change, since the Gripen doesn't get better, nor was any upgrade funded yet for the F18SH, so all MoD has to do again is, to re-evaluate the results of the EF and Rafale, under the new delivery timeline and the changes that now came up and then get to a new L1 and L2 decision.

You can't simply turn around after the date and say "we will now change our bid", this defeats the whole purpose of a CLOSED BID process and undermines the entire MMRCA selection process to date.

Again you stick to the bids, which is not the important point here! The real issue is, the delays that does not clear delivery according to the RFP and the fact that there are changes that must be considered if the bids still comply to the RFP or if additonal cost must be added. IRST was included in the Rafale bid initially, but by then it was under production. Now they want to divert the production to Samtel as part of the ToT / offset offer, but who funds the set up of this new production line? Dassault doesn't because French forces don't buy the IRST anymore, that means this ammount of money must be added to the bid. Same goes for the not available Damocles XF, contrary to the initial bid. Not to mention that if there is an issue in the life cycle cost calculation (according to the article based on IAFs side), they had to reconsider it anyway and till then the bids might need to be re-newed anyway.

Letting the EFT back in now would be opening a can of worms the IAF cannot afford.

But it's not IAF's call to make and MoD has to look at the bigger picture not only on what IAF wants. If we did what IAF wanted, we just had ordered more M2Ks while the government wanted more benefits for the Indian industry too.

it would only hurt India and other defence procurements.

How does it hurt India when we would get a better deal, or more fighters in a faster way, or more industrial maybe even development benefits?

 

[Echo_419]

The figure being quoted is 20000 crores as difference. I'm not sure we should worry about setting a bad example.......what kind of example would you set if 20000 crores didn't matter.... It is not as difficult as you imagine to reset the contract. The life cycle calculations have always been confusing & more than one expert including some senior BJP politicians have questioned it. The GoI can raise doubts on the calculations and ask for recalculations of the figure asking both to submit figures again in whatever format is chosen. Allows for both parties to rethink their figures (important that the French too get a 2nd chance with their figures). Committing economic suicide has not been an idea I favour, a difference of Rs.20000 crores is huge especially when you consider that the IAF's entire capital expenses budget for the year is about that figure.

This would set a bad example becuz opening & closing tenders like these are bad for business,they could have given this improved offer many years ago what were these guys doing all these days.Just imagine if other Arms companies did the same with all tenders then we can say bye bye to our modernization efforts

You don't have to re-evaluate everything, only inlcude the changes in the latest bids. That's what we had done at the end in the tanker competition too.

Still even with Mr modi i don't trust the Indian Bureaucracy enough or this can be a pressure tactic on Dassult to transfer more TOT

 

[Bang Galore]

This would set a bad example becuz opening & closing tenders like these are bad for business,they could have given this improved offer many years ago what were these guys doing all these days.Just imagine if other Arms companies did the same with all tenders then we can say bye bye to our modernization efforts

The sheer quantum involved here requires a relook. In any case, this is a prime case for the CAG to comment on (life cycle costing etc), so politicans will deal with this carefully. If L2 is offering us a 20000 crore advantage, we simly cannot overlook that for a technical view of things.

 

[Echo_419]

The sheer quantum involved here requires a relook. In any case, this is a prime case for the CAG to comment on (life cycle costing etc), so politicans will deal with this carefully. If L2 is offering us a 20000 crore advantage, we simly cannot overlook that for a technical view of things.

Well let's hope they select either one of them fast & if we selected EF French are gonna be Pissed

 

[sancho]

This would set a bad example becuz opening & closing tenders like these are bad for business

Actually we already have the (bad) reputation around the world, to open, scrap and re-issues tenders over and over again, so that would not be the problem, especially if there are propper reasons to do so, like the changes I mentioned earlier.

 

[trident2010]

20000 crores is a large sum. Get Typhoon if we can save this money.

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

A lot of people are creating a fuss over the cost savings of 20,000 crores ($3.3 billion USD if I am not mistaken) in favor of the Eurofighter. Consider this; so many have flown the Eurofighter, that if any potential enemy wants to understand the strengths and weaknesses of this aircraft, all they have to do is organize exercises with a friendly country that does fly it. For example, (before anyone accuses me of flinging dirt, I am just pointing the obvious and not saying this with the intention of trolling), if Pakistan wants to get a relative idea of what the 30MKI's are capable of all they need to do is fly to China (as they have done so in the recent past), if India had EFs, all they would need to do is organize the same with Saudi Arabia.

However while the chances of Saudis letting anyone else take a peek at their EFs (considering that they are partners in the program and have modified it somewhat to their own specs) are slim, it does reduce the potential advantage by a certain degree (debatable) of planning tactics and strategies with this kind of a plane considering how much closer Pakistan is to Saudi Arabia than India. Now the Rafale is flown by no one else save France, and reports are doubtful of sales to another country except India, so the tactics and strategies developed will be exclusive only to the Indians. Is exclusivity in tactics and strategy in order to retain aerial superiority worth $3.3 billion USD??.....So much more in my opinion.....