Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

You mean the wings are just for show and not for gliding ?

Where does it say PGM can't glide or cruise ? ....its large range and low weight is a clear indicator of its ability to cruise.

Lol, so a wing kit makes it a cruise missile? You clearly are new and I suggest to inform yourself first before getting into conclusions. For starters:

Cruise missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Standoff (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Btw, Brahmos has no wings to extend the range and is a cruise missile, just a hint.

 

[NairLand]

Lol, so a wing kit makes it a cruise missile? You clearly are new and I suggest to inform yourself first before getting into conclusions. For starters:

Btw, Brahmos has no wings to extend the range and is a cruise missile, just a hint.

I am not as new as you might think

You need to take a closer look at the link you have posted for Spear 3. Click on the data specs to understand the mechanism better.

btw Brahmos has large wings that look like fins that is designed to fly at mach 3. ..... a bit like mig 21, just a hint.

 

[ANPP]

I am not as new as you might think

You need to take a closer look at the link you have posted for Spear 3. Click on the data specs to understand the mechanism better.

btw Brahmos has large wings that look like fins that is designed to fly at mach 3. ..... a bit like mig 21, just a hint.

Take it easy bro. He is just pdf exclaimed expert.

The main difference is that spear like missiles are made for pin-point accuracy, while cruise missiles for just destruction. Another profit of these missiles is that they are low cost compare to cruise missiles, can be fired in numbers, while providing greater range compare to PGMs.

But the most biggest advantage I think is that they can fired from a/c in any position. For launching the brahmose type missile you have to reduce speed, should achieve stable x-direction movement. Which is too much dangers if enemy fighters is near around

 

[sancho]

Google translated:

The Talios Thales pod future Rafale

It will be called Talios, future laser designation pod that should be integrated into the Rafale 2018. Talios for Targeting Long Optronic Identification System, a system that was unveiled by the equipment manufacturer Thales at the Farnborough Airshow in July last. The successor of the Damocles pod should allow Rafale and Mirage 2000 to significantly increase their targeting capabilities and recognition. "Putting the driver in the heart of the system" is one of the stated goals of Thales, who designed it in response to operational requirements. The display mode "permanent view 'including a wider field of vision than that of Damocles, which should improve the detection capabilities of the planes that will ship this system. The pod incorporates an infrared sensor, a TV camera and an illuminator and a laser rangefinder. For a color display, high resolution, high definition, "the Talios decrease the decision time while providing more complete information," says one in the OEM, "through optronics technologies, the pilot will be able to respond more quickly, which will shorten the decision loop. " The pod will thus be able to identify both the small targets than directing air strikes basement "high precision". The appreciation Talios lies between other in sharing information and data collected with the real-time transmission of ground-to-air, air-to-air and air-ground information is increasing "the interaction between the troops ground and the pilot in flight. " The pod next generation is able to find, fix, reach, target, engage a target, evaluate and share data, enabling improved protection. The integration of images from other sensors has also been studied, whether from a satellite or other platform. The "plug and fight" system also acts as a model of "robustness" in order to "optimize performance and maintenance, to ensure optimal readiness," according to Thales. Requirements made by the Air Force and the Navy, but could also be an argument for export, the OEM with the Talios as an integrable equipment on "all current and future systems." The DGA had notified the contract raising risks for the development of Talios in January 2013, before awarding the development contract in late December 2013 The characterization of laser designation pod new generation is expected in mid-2018, for be on board the Rafale F3 standard R. The car should be embarked on Mirage 2000D in 2016 for first flight tests. The Act provides for the 2014-2019 military programming order for 20 laser designation pods and delivery of 16 aircraft between 2018 and 2019.

Le Talios de Thales, futur pod du Rafale - Défense ::: Le Journal de l'Aviation

 

[Storm Force]

Is this happening....

I predicted it may not happen over 18 months ago. To due huge cost and falling rupee value.

A lot of Indian members seemed disgusted at my fears are stil there.

And no deal is close

Today hundteds of posts later my

 

[C130]

Is this happening....

I predicted it may not happen over 18 months ago. To due huge cost and falling rupee value.

A lot of Indian members seemed disgusted at my fears are stil there.

And no deal is close

Today hundteds of posts later my

I wonder if the French are the ones having second thoughts.

 

[Storm Force]

French wil constraint on UAE orders they have cash and wont mess about with hassle of offset claueses and tot. India is Pussy footing about it is embaressing

 

[Abingdonboy]

India Said to Target Signing Rafale Fighter Jet Deal by End 2014
India aims to sign the contract for the world’s biggest order of fighter jets in about two decades with Dassault Aviation SA (AM) by the end of the year, two Indian air force officials familiar with the matter said today.[...]
More:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-end-2014.html

 

[Echo_419]

India Said to Target Signing Rafale Fighter Jet Deal by End 2014
India aims to sign the contract for the world’s biggest order of fighter jets in about two decades with Dassault Aviation SA (AM) by the end of the year, two Indian air force officials familiar with the matter said today.[...]
More:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-end-2014.html

December is not far let's see,hope they don't delay the thing again

 

[sancho]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon

The world's biggest defence deal is in danger of becom-ing one of the slowest in his-tory. More than two years after India zeroed in on the French Rafale fighter jet-after a tor-tured 11-year selection process-to replace its ageing MiG-21s, the Ger-man-led European consortium which was the runner-up in the race has sought to restart the dogfight by offer-ing a new, cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter Typhoon. The Narendra Modi Government, INDIA TODAY has learnt, is studying the German proposal even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been nego-tiating with France's Dassault, the maker of the Rafale, to finalise agree-ments to produce the aircraft in India. The Rafale deal for 126 jets is esti-mated to cost 20 billion euros (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global de-fence tender.
Representatives of the German government met leaders of the BJP regime in June, within weeks of the latter coming to power, and the talks culminated in a new commercial pro-posal that seeks to undercut the French bid. The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration. The scale of the "discount"-formally offered in early July to Defence Minister Arun Jait-ley-was substantial enough to create ripples at the very top of the Govern-ment, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi also being apprised about the development, sources said...

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon : DEFENCE - India Today


Not sure how reliable the source is, but interesting if there was such a proposal.

 

[Abingdonboy]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon : DEFENCE - India Today


Not sure how reliable the source is, but interesting if there was such a proposal.

What have they been doing for the past two years? Sat around with their thumbs up their backsides? IF they are in a position to make a cheaper bid now then they should have in the initial closed bid submission. It would wholly improper for the GoI/MoD to now turn around and accept the L2's revised bid and would rightly leave the MoD/GoI open to being held hostage in every other open bidding process it has. Once a closed bid is submitted that is the end of the matter, there simply can be no going back by either entrant (L1/2) otherwise this would undermine the entire selection process.

 

[sancho]

What have they been doing for the past two years? Sat around with their thumbs up their backsides? IF they are in a position to make a cheaper bid now then they should have in the initial closed bid submission. It would wholly improper for the GoI/MoD to now turn around and accept the L2's revised bid and would rightly leave the MoD/GoI open to being held hostage in every other open bidding process it has. Once a closed bid is submitted that is the end of the matter, there simply can be no going back by either entrant (L1/2) otherwise this would undermine the entire selection process.

They had given a bid, which they thought was reasonable for their product, but turned out to not be good enough. Now there is a new government, which they want to approach and if the deal still was on the line of the original RFP and the initial bids, they wouldn't had a chance to re-bid now, but it isn't and that can be a chance for them.
It doesn't matter if it's "inpropper" or not, all that matters is, that India gets the best deal in return for it's money! One can also say it was inpropper of Dassault to keep fighting about things that they knew about since 2007, or that they needed 2 years to comply to the offset/ToT requirements.
As I said earlier, it's only up to the MoD if they want to re-evaluate the bids / evaluation results according to the new delivery timeframe or if there are inconsistencies in the Rafale offer.

 

[Abingdonboy]

They had given a bid, which they thought was reasonable for their product, but turned out to not be good enough. Now there is a new government, which they want to approach and if the deal still was on the line of the original RFP and the initial bids, they wouldn't had a chance to re-bid now, but it isn't and that can be a chance for them.
It doesn't matter if it's "inpropper" or not, all that matters is, that India gets the best deal in return for it's money! One can also say it was inpropper of Dassault to keep fighting about things that they knew about since 2007, or that they needed 2 years to comply to the offset/ToT requirements.
As I said earlier, it's only up to the MoD if they want to re-evaluate the bids / evaluation results according to the new delivery timeframe or if there are inconsistencies in the Rafale offer.

I'm sorry sir but if you had it Your way, that is the deal went to EFT based on this new revised bid be selected because they have now come to a lower price, not only would this be a pretty unjustifiable move as far as the Rafale vs EFT is concerned and which is the better plane/most suited to the IAF's needs, but this would put every single multi-bidder open tender of India's on the line and would add years to every single procurement. By not respecting the sanctity of the closed bidding system the MoD/GoI would be going against every established global norm and opening the door to every losing bidder to throw themselves back in the ring and thus add years upon years to all such procurements.

So EFT gets selected, let alone the IAF having to wait another 2-3 years for their new planes (time the IAF doesn't have) but who's to say Dassualt doesn't come back with a bid that undercuts the revised EFT bid and EFT then comes back with a revised revised bid and so on and so forth? This is the kind of circus you are inviting sir.



The fact there is a new GoI is immaterial, the MMRCA has thus far been 100% free of political interference. The IAF should get what's best for them not what the politicians deem best. I actually don't see Modi/GoI getting involved in this and taking a look at any of the crazy stories coming out from EFT, SAAB etc about the MMRCA- the IAF has made their case, they are looking foreword to the Rafale in 3 years time and the Rafale has been selected. At no point in time has the new GoI made any indication the Rafale's selection was being question or that any other party was being engaged vis a vis the MMRCA procurement- rathe the opposite, and I had feared that Modi just might do something as silly as that.

 

[sancho]

I'm sorry sir but if you had it our way, that is the deal went to EFT based on this new revised would be selected because they have now come to a lower price, not only would this be a pretty unjustifiable move as far as the Rafale vs EFT is concerned and which is the better plane/most suited to the IAF's needs, but this would put every single multi-bidder open tender of India's on the line and would add years to every single procurement.

First of all, you can't tell which fighter is more suitable or which offer is better, without knowing the timeframes or the offers itself. They might be able to cut the cost, but still could be more expensive (which I believe), while they can deliver fighters faster to deal with the shortfalls of squads and can offer more industrial and even technical benefits in return. So it's only a matter of what they actually offer and how worth it is compared to the costs!
Secondly, this has nothing to do with other competitions, but the simple fact that a new bid would only be considered if there are reasons for it within the competition, not because 1 vendor proposes a new bid. The change now is not that they cut costs, but that there is a new government that can change the prioirities of the competition (as seen in Brazil) and that the initial time frames can't be met anymore. So if something effects the competition, things can be changed and that is within the rights of the government. Take the tanker competition, that needed to be re-issued, because the Finance Ministry rejected the first result based on costs. MoD had to change the competition and even invited Boeing to be part again, the fact that the A330 won again, was only based on the fact that it offered the best cost / benefit ratio. And even if the MoD now would review the shortlistings under different priorities or timeframes, Rafale still could come out as the most suitable choice.

So EFT gets selected, let alone the IAF having to wait another 2-3 years for their new planes

That only depends on the contrac we sign, the EF is the fastest choice today for us to get fighters. We could get a full squadron of T3As within the next 2 years if we want, which basically is dependen on how fast we can train pilots and build up ground support. The first T3B squadron with AESA would be available at the same time as we get the first Rafale F3+ squadron, by late 2017 / early 2018.

The IAF should get what's best for them not what the politicians deem best.

Not at all, since this deal is not only about IAF, they only need to get something that suits their requirement, not necessarily the best or the costliest. The overall benefit of the package is that counts, which includes industrial benefits as well and the MoD has to consider both in comparison to the total costs. The "offer" that gives India the most in return must win!

At no point in time has the new GoI made any indication the Rafale's selection was being question

No, but they neither openly supported the selection nor rejected any of the publically debated issues. The only official statement that we have seen was, of the DM recently, that the negotiations with Dassault are going on, which is logical as they are the only participant in negotiations right now, but they never stated that there are no issues about the costs, nor that they the Rafale will remain the only choice under consideration. So they let both options open and by talking to the Germans and the Brits after the election, a possible new proposal surely came up at some point. But as said, it's all within the rights of the new MoD to change things, if they feel it's better for India and at least re-thinking what changes came in the meantime is not wrong.

 

[Echo_419]

They had given a bid, which they thought was reasonable for their product, but turned out to not be good enough. Now there is a new government, which they want to approach and if the deal still was on the line of the original RFP and the initial bids, they wouldn't had a chance to re-bid now, but it isn't and that can be a chance for them.
It doesn't matter if it's "inpropper" or not, all that matters is, that India gets the best deal in return for it's money! One can also say it was inpropper of Dassault to keep fighting about things that they knew about since 2007, or that they needed 2 years to comply to the offset/ToT requirements.
As I said earlier, it's only up to the MoD if they want to re-evaluate the bids / evaluation results according to the new delivery timeframe or if there are inconsistencies in the Rafale offer.

Doesn't matter now,by the time w finalize the deal with the EF 4th gen fighters will become outdated & the deal with dassult is close to being signed,no way we should mess it up