Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Sancho, we don't know what partnerships are offered, and F3R standard are already defined and funded

That's the point! It is defined and funded for French requirements only, but it could had been jointly defined and funded for French and Indian requirements!
Now the F3R hardly has any importance for India as I showed, while the risk of us MKIzing it with Israeli techs and weapons, that French forces don't need and other export customers can't procure is high. So instead of a win-win situation for both countries and a possible higher commitment of India to Rafale, France is losing a huge chance.
I agree with you that India might have a say in future upgrades beyond the F3R, but that doesn't increase the number of Rafales India will order, or the commitment India would have. It only gives India more options to add techs or capabilities to the available fighters, without being dependent on what France offers, like we are now at Mirage 2000 upgrade.

About the article, are you sure we are talking about the part 2?

No, I was refering to part 1 and the earlier Rafale vs F35 reports, didn't had the time to check the site for some time now.

 

[Jayanta]

Does anybody have an idea what would be the difference in the per aircraft price if we buy them from Dassault rather than manufacturing it in India under ToT? If the price difference is huge, why not buy them from Dassault directly and use the money saved to make more MK2 or develop facilities for AMCA.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

the tender terms were 18 birds directly and rest 108 manufactured in india.. so i am afraid its not possible..some times back some folks did suggest that to speed up procurement and induction into IAF, instead of 18 birds take 36 at flyaway condition and rest manufactured in India.. but again that wud also invite issues of favouritism as no such clause is there in the tender as other parties may state that such conditions meant our bids wud have been better than what we quoted..


BTW MK2 wud be still in light class and AMCA wud be most probably inducted when all rafales wud be already manufactured or few birds wud be sent to upgrade to may b F4R.. no sarcasm here.. rather reality as post design, testing, IOC and FOC to mass production would mean Rafale fully manufactured for india and may be potential follow on order may be getting manufactured at that time

 

[sancho]

Does anybody have an idea what would be the difference in the per aircraft price if we buy them from Dassault rather than manufacturing it in India under ToT? If the price difference is huge, why not buy them from Dassault directly and use the money saved to make more MK2 or develop facilities for AMCA.

Because we wouldn't get any ToT and offsets in return. In which companies should Dassault invest, if they produce all Rafale in France with French industry?
The aim of M-MRCA was to get as much as possible for Indian industry and not just to get a new fighter, otherwise MoD would had followed IAFs suggestion and would have gone with more M2K-5s in the first MRCA competition. And exactly this "return" for Indian industry, is what delays the final decision, because Dassault need to find the right partners to fulfill our offset and ToT requirements.

 

[Taygibay]

Actually, that is not illogical at all, since Dassault is a major shareholder in Thales and even showed how much influence they have by pressuring Thales to back out of a possible deal with Saab, to provide RBE 2 AESA demonstrator for the Gripen NG.

About Dassault 's share of Thales, it is less than 30%.
But EADS share of Dassault is 46%
TCI hedge fund ups pressure on EADS over Dassault Aviation stake - FT.com
Are you thus implying that EADS which ownsCassidian or Typhoon if you prefer is partly responsible for Dassault stance? Because if you are not then my illogical comment stands in full Hum?

And I mentioned mainly Dassault since they, unlike Thales (that teamed up with Samtel years ago) or the former president Sarkozy had showed much more interest in the Indian deal, than Dassault.

Wrong again : 3DPLM Software Solutions Limited :: A Joint venture of Dassault Systemes & Geometric
Software Solutions Limited
And before you argue that it is ONLY software, let me remind you that while Dassault is in the top 5 fighter manufacturers, it is NUMBER 1 in the world of conception / design, modelization to production software as evidenced by its CATIA clients list : Airbus, Boeing, General Dynamics, Bombardier, Embraer, Bell, Sikorsky, Eurofighter et al the JH-7 and LCA having both been done on it? ( And just about the whole automobile industry WWide. )

CATIA found taught here :
Siemens Training Pune | PLM Training Pune | MIT Skills
by the said JV?

So that in fact, Dassault teamed up with India for its flagship product but you hold to the idea that they don't like/trust it? I don't know what motivates your denial and anger at them but let me venture ( not joint, strictly my own ) this : Dassault chose India for computer products because the mathematical abilities of children of Bharat are millenary and legendary which can't be denied just as it would rather have taught Reliance from scratch than be forced to deal with the also legendary slow and clumsy working habits of HAL? That simple!

But as you went on to reiterate, the point is mostly that of the armament and systems that could be co-developed. On that, I personally have no problem. It is only that I doubt the French govt is interested. Some of your proposals hinge on stuff required by India that was denied to the Fr forces. I doubt that the Govt that wouldn't finance these in the first place would do that especially since they want to limit the very number of fighters to be acquired? And even then, you have to remember the Lancaster House treaties that are inching forward and would take precedence as they concern the same stuff?

In an ideal world, maybe all 3 countries would consolidate over them but that would make Brits a senior partner to Indians and I am not convinced that you desis would like that? Too soon? At least if it happened, you guys might come to see that us French are not so bad after all?

In any case, the news about the contract if confirmed will change the scope of our discussion. It will become a more rational matter of imagining developments based on the revealed set-up? I hope that comes soon. The MRCA/MMRCA saga has endured enough. Please let us move into realization proper.

Thanks Parik for the news and good day all, Tay.

 

[Dazzler]

for a moment, forget Rafale and enjoy the Mirage 2000-5 upgraded, being tested in France, notice a new EW and sensor/ antennae changes..

 

[airmarshal]

Just realized this thread is almost 10 years old and India still does not have the jets!

India really moves at speed of light. If it takes this long to negotiate, by the time India flies those planes, newer technologies will already be there! Bravo.

 

[trident2010]

Just realized this thread is almost 10 years old and India still does not have the jets!

India really moves at speed of light. If it takes this long to negotiate, by the time India flies those planes, newer technologies will already be there! Bravo.

These huge deals take time and for India it takes extra time . As it is IAF is not in too much hurry as they have Su-30 MKIs, Mig-29s, Mirage 2000-5s etc to tackle any immediate threat. Rafale should be coming along with LCA and FGFA in say 8-10 years. 5th gen technology is already 20 years old but it won't be operational in any other airforce for next 5-8 years. So I wouldn't be too worried about losing few years and advancement of technology.

 

[sancho]

About Dassault 's share of Thales...

Hehe, the usual Taygibay way of denial and distraction. Not that I'm surprised, nor would it bother me too much, it's not the first time that you wildly post links that have nothing to do with the topic, just to act as if you would have a point. But I enjoy it when you reply to others at the end, that I'm actually are right.

I don't need to lecture you on the fact that Dassault Aviations share in Thales is nearly as big as the French governments and includes voting rights, which is the reason why they can pressure Thales to, or out of JV's if they want.
Or that the EADS shares in Dassault Aviation, doesn't include any voting rights and basically are a safty feature for Dassault itself.
Just that Dassault Systems... teaming up with 3DPML...has nothing to do with Indian aero industry, Rafale, or the MMRCA.at all. So no further need to waste my time on that.
The funny part however is, that you still think that I am talking bad about Dassault and in favour for India, while I actually point out, that Dassault missed a huge chance to gain more from the Indian deal, therefor to get more benefits themselfs!!!

In your denial mode, you don't even understand that India gets what it wanted anyway:

• an advanced multi role fighter
• high ammount of ToT and offsets
• HAL being the main contractor of the deal (and no further workshare of Reliance)

That's why I am more than happy since the day Rafale was selected, but if Dassault had judged the potential of India better, they would had focused on speeding up ToT negotiations instead of delaying it, or offering joint upgrade developments (FSO-NG, PDL-NG, Gerfaut HMS), instead just on outscourcing of currently available but not very capable production parts (FSO-IR, Damocles LDP, Topsight HMS) that French forces don't want anymore. The earlier would imply seeing India as a partner and a chance for Rafales future, the later just sees India as an export customer. So the loss is actually on the French side, by not getting a reliable partner for Rafales future!

 

[Taygibay]

Hehe, the usual Taygibay way of denial and distraction. Not that I'm surprised, nor would it bother me too much, it's not the first time that you wildly post links that have nothing to do with the topic, just to act as if you would have a point. But I enjoy it when you reply to others at the end, that I'm actually are right.

OK Sancho, once again I will have to end this discussion with you as logic has gone down the drain. You resort to name calling and disrespecting my reasoning abilities but are happy that I acknowledge your being right on a given point? Sorry kid but that is downright stupid. If I am a distracted denier with useless sources and no point then the fact that I say you are right should be a proof that what you say is of the same nature now shouldn't it?

Shareholding | Thales Group
As a matter of fact, that ludicrous absence of logic and reversal of what you do to others is evidence. You can fabulate all you want, anyone that opens my links such as the one above will have proof of the contrary. The French state is the majority decider for Thalès, as much is stated in that page.
Dassault teaming with an Indian corp A- contradicts past comments of yours on their supposed aversion of some sort to it and B- shows that for you to say that it does not relate to aviation in view of the fact that I listed for you the companies that use it just for that purpose is the exact denial of which you accused me.

HAL being the main contractor of the deal (and no further workshare of Reliance)

Copied to HD! Please don't mind if I eventually bring in back to you later as a "distraction" when the results are made public

As for your last paragraph, it shows gall over brains. While I agree to the general idea that it seems there should have been more partnership offered by France and said so in my post ♯8843 in clear terms ( clearer than any of yours ), there are two major errors in it.
A- You know nothing of the "delaying it" of ToT negotiations in this deal unless you work for the GoI in which case you'd be contractually obligated to shut your big mouth and not to take part in fora discussions and the same goes for the offering/outsourcing part;
B- from which I can again extract a proof of your dreaming up stuff as in the listing of Gerfault in the joint dev. part and Topsight in the seller only one being followed by

that French forces don't want anymore.

when the said French Forces got neither in the first place which makes it impossible for them to not want them anymore? You really shouldn't talk in place and name of my country's armed forces, at least until you speak the language for instance?

But hey, sure, my stating facts & providing sources is stupidity and your shoveling Unicorn manure is Holy Truth. What can I say, I can only play the hand that was dealt to me and me so stoopid, babu!
Tssssssk! Ground control to Major Troll : out!

 

[Gessler]

Just realized this thread is almost 10 years old and India still does not have the jets!

India really moves at speed of light. If it takes this long to negotiate, by the time India flies those planes, newer technologies will already be there! Bravo.

10 years! There was no MMRCA competition ten years ago and we had only begun inducting Su-30MKIs at that time.

And what new technologies are you talking about?

 

[Taygibay]

Not news but the latest argument around the MMRCA asking for it to be signed ASAP :
DASSAULT RAFALE DEAL MUSTN’T BE DELAYED - Journey Line Newspaper

Good day all, Tay.

 

[shanixee]

Maybe it will get delayed by the end of 2014

 

[Last Samuri]

Cancel it completely they don't need now.

272 flankers. The rest mirages jays mig29 and tejas

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

Cancel it completely they don't need now.

272 flankers. The rest mirages jays mig29 and tejas

Disagree, India needs the tech and supplier-independence.