Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kurup]

According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings

MMRCA before 15 feb.

That is a very good news ......

 

[sancho]

Btw, there is an old test with heavy config from Flight. 3x 2000L, 2 Scalps, 4 Mica. Mach 0.6 to 0.9 35 secs, roll rate 150°, up to 5.2g

At the Paris Air Show in 1997, the Rafale made a flight display with that config:

(min 8:36 onwards)

 

[halloweene]

Yes, Mike Yeo tested it right back from Le Bourget in 1999 for flight

At the Paris Air Show in 1997, the Rafale made a flight display with that config:

(min 8:36 onwards)

nice high aoa manouvers btw.

 

[Manvantaratruti]

That is a very good news ......

Not necessarily.

What if the initial contract will guarantee that we will buy Rafale without the counter guarantee that they will provide all necessary ToT ? ...a contract without any exit strategy ?

Its not like it has not been done before.

 

[Abingdonboy]

According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings

MMRCA before 15 feb.

Some nice things to take away from this article:

While nothing can ever be confirmed in the world of defense procurement in India till the ink dries on paper, it is becoming increasingly clear that a basic contract will be signed with Dassault Aviation in the next 45 days for the MMRCA. This is simply because the 45 day election morotarium starts on Feb 15, we are being told.
HAL will be in the picture as the RFP clearly says, and we are also hearing some large private companies are in the picture for supplying aerostructures.
Even as the AgustaWestland deal has been cancelled, a source tells us: “The government wants to ensure Dassault gets the contract so that the deal cannot be questioned by subsequent governments.” We are also hearing internal discussions on the basic contract have been completed by the IAF.

-Preliminary contract should/will be signed within 45 days (meaning first deliveries of Rafales in early 2017 are assured).
-"Large" Indian PVT players are involved (Reliance almost certainly)
-IAF has completed their side of the work.
- Work is being done to make the Rafale contract iron-clad and above reproach.(long-term very good to know).

Not necessarily.

What if the initial contract will guarantee that we will buy Rafale without the counter guarantee that they will provide all necessary ToT ? ...a contract without any exit strategy ?

Its not like it has not been done before.

Why would you nessercarily jump to this conclusion? It's not like the GoI/MoD have spent the last 2 years sat around drawing up such unappealing terms for themselves. And in the light of recent export failures for Dassualt, India is in a strong bargaining position.

 

[halloweene]

yes, and talking to Dassault executives, they told me they valued 60 years old client like india and wouldnt sign if the contract wasn't iron clad. Of course they are from Dassault...

 

[Manvantaratruti]

Why would you nessercarily jump to this conclusion? It's not like the GoI/MoD have spent the last 2 years sat around drawing up such unappealing terms for themselves. And in the light of recent export failures for Dassualt, India is in a strong bargaining position.

As I said, its not like a poor contract has not be signed before.

The very fact that the GoI could not sign off on the deal for 2 years and now is hastily signing of on a preliminary contract is what is raising the eyebrows.

There is nothing in the article to indicate an exit strategy except wishful thinking.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@ Abingdonboy @sancho

can u pls throw some light on Indianised Rafale vs say french Rafale in terms of armaments, costs like life cycle and operating costs..

One dummy question: if by far India becomes say the only customer of rafale or largest operator outside France, would it be prudent that we go for a say tie up which helps both the countries to evolve Rafale even more in future.. if so whats the possible evolution in Rafale u all believe could be possible.

 

[halloweene]

Dassault do not communicate about Rafale indianization. What we know for sure is that there will be HMD, anti ARM lissile and SATCOM.
And yes, for example IAF will be consulted for MLU. (At least that's what toldme one of Dassault vice presidents)

 

[sancho]

can u pls throw some light on Indianised Rafale vs say french Rafale in terms of armaments, costs like life cycle and operating costs..

One dummy question: if by far India becomes say the only customer of rafale or largest operator outside France, would it be prudent that we go for a say tie up which helps both the countries to evolve Rafale even more in future.. if so whats the possible evolution in Rafale u all believe could be possible.

The MMRCA RFP requires HMS and IRST, both are not included in French latest Rafales. We also heared that the Mirage 2000 upgrade includes SPICE 2000 PGMs, which makes it likely to be added to Rafale too, a common LDP is also likely for both fighters.
We have seen reports from US and Russia, that offered weapons for the Indian Rafale, but I didn't saw an IAF official asking for an ARM. With the availability of Russian ARM at Mig 29UPGs or MKIs and the development for an indian ARM started, it actually would be a waste of money to integrate a Russian or US ARM to Rafale now, but lets wait and see.

Some say wrt upgrades (MLU I guess) will be there for sure, but imo that is too less. Both sides should had focused on a real partnership on the Rafale, which would have added far more potential to the fighter and joint developments, instead of indianization Rafale for IAF specifically.
In a partnership, the PDL NG for example could be jointly developed, which reduces the development and unit costs, gains India with technology transfer and could jointly be sold to potential export customers! IF India however will add the Israeli Litening pod, none of the potential Gulf countries, that might want to buy Rafale could buy it.
Same potential can be seen at joint NG HMS, IRST, EW, or even missile developments based on the Maitri SAM / MICA VL co-development.

I guess we are too distracted by LCA and FGFA, while the French side (mainly Dassault) is not eager to see India as a real partner.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The MMRCA RFP requires HMS and IRST, both are not included in French latest Rafales. We also heared that the Mirage 2000 upgrade includes SPICE 2000 PGMs, which makes it likely to be added to Rafale too, a common LDP is also likely for both fighters.
We have seen reports from US and Russia, that offered weapons for the Indian Rafale, but I didn't saw an IAF official asking for an ARM. With the availability of Russian ARM at Mig 29UPGs or MKIs and the development for an indian ARM started, it actually would be a waste of money to integrate a Russian or US ARM to Rafale now, but lets wait and see.

Some say wrt upgrades (MLU I guess) will be there for sure, but imo that is too less. Both sides should had focused on a real partnership on the Rafale, which would have added far more potential to the fighter and joint developments, instead of indianization Rafale for IAF specifically.
In a partnership, the PDL NG for example could be jointly developed, which reduces the development and unit costs, gains India with technology transfer and could jointly be sold to potential export customers! IF India however will add the Israeli Litening pod, none of the potential Gulf countries, that might want to buy Rafale could buy it.
Same potential can be seen at joint NG HMS, IRST, EW, or even missile developments based on the Maitri SAM / MICA VL co-development.

I guess we are too distracted by LCA and FGFA, while the French side (mainly Dassault) is not eager to see India as a real partner.

thats a shame if India is nt trying to become a real partner with french,, may be its more of a political will that is needed to push that "wish to be there" with french side.. if the so called 126+follow on order of rumoured 63 is to be believed then 189 is a huge chunk.. besides a platform is nvr matured or obsolete unless everything is tried , tested and known that nothing more can be done or a whole new technology had come into play which makes the present system a legacy system..

I thot French side may be bit keen for such a proposition as economies of scale is win win for both the sides and if the numbers further increase say from 189 to even more say 250-300 obviously depending upon the situation and may be a mix of Naval variant, the possibility is end less.. a partnership as u said bringing the cost effectiveness may make the bird far more attractive..

Btw do u see a dedicated say 20 aircrafts of Rafale for placement under SFC for nuclear strike? if so how many say Brahmos Mini it can carry or what kind of weapon it may have?

Also why so much negative news abt its cost and other things like Tough negotiator or blaming HAL for not having adequate resources etc are always in news..As such what i understand the failure of this deal is not acceptable to both french and indian side.. and they both need it both at political as well as economical sides..

 

[sancho]

Btw do u see a dedicated say 20 aircrafts of Rafale for placement under SFC for nuclear strike? if so how many say Brahmos Mini it can carry or what kind of weapon it may have?

IAF had denied reports to provide SFC with dedicated fighters and will operate all fighters and even if Rafale might be able to carry up to 3 x Brahmos mini, I think it's more likely that Nirbhay will be developed with nuclear warheads.

As such what i understand the failure of this deal is not acceptable to both french and indian side.. and they both need it both at political as well as economical sides..

Correct, it is too important for both countries to fail now, but we are very close to elections now and that can change everything. Dassault made a big mistake in delaying negotiations to get more out for Reliance, while we took too long to finish the trials and competition. But it will be interesting to see how many we buy now. If it's up to IAF, we will take the optional once and icrease the numbers from France, to counter falling squad numbers. But with the high cost, LCA MK2 aimed on production at the same time as Rafale in India and FGFA coming only a few years later, all of them could be used to add squads and LCA would be far cheaper, while more FGFA adds clear technological and operational advantages.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

If it's up to IAF, we will take the optional once and icrease the numbers from France, to counter falling squad numbers. But with the high cost, LCA MK2 aimed on production at the same time as Rafale in India and FGFA coming only a few years later, all of them could be used to add squads and LCA would be far cheaper, while more FGFA adds clear technological and operational advantages.

Interesting Sancho.. suppose if i am the seller i,e say in Dassault side or say in french government side also, if i look at India and see its planned acquisition program like upgradation of SU 30 MKI to super sukhois, LCA MK2 plans and FGFA as well as factor in certain unforseen delays, would nt it be a prudent business sense to make India a strategic partner and ensure that this deal size is so good and big that they are there with IAF for next 40-50 years for sure.. Meaning a sweet deal which India cant close its eyes at all and ensure that Rafale reaches a similar number like Su 30 MKIs. Also open up more avenues for naval variant also to lure IN also into the fray.. that way a gud part of work and employment would always be there for French economy also.. sumthn which political leaders wud be very happy to project

 

[Last Samuri]

There is less need for Rafale now then say 10 years ago heck even 5 years ago.

firstly IAF are adding super sukhoi to the fleet which bring some the rafales deep strike and cruise missle ability to the table.

Second LCA mk1 has been accepted by IAF even if its only 40 + MK2 to follow all indications are LCA is now a definite induction programme for 123 fighters between now and 2024...

Third IAF has started upgrades to 180 fighters ie Mig29smt Mirage2000-5 & Jaguar to make them more survivable and adapt to multi role capability to forfill some of the MMRCA reqyuirements .

finally Russians will ready with PAK FA by 2018 AND fgfa WILL surely follow 4 years later should IAF comitt and find the $30 billion to order 144 planes and to pay for funding.

In the future IAF fighters will carry
Brahmos 200KM cruise missle
Nirbhay 800 km cruise missle
Astra BVR mk1 & mk2
Helina ASM
SURDASHAN LGB

im not convinced we need this uber expensive MMRCA from France

I we order this and spend $25 billion we jepodise the future FGFA contract and growth prospects of LCA mk2 and the above weapons projects.

DONT DO IT WE DONT NEED THEM

 

[sancho]

would nt it be a prudent business sense to make India a strategic partner...Meaning a sweet deal which India cant close its eyes at all and ensure that Rafale reaches a similar number like Su 30 MKIs.

French politicians and even parts of the industry might have interest. With Dassault however it seems more problematic.
If the US combines the sale of catapults to us, with the procurement of US fighters, similar to what the Russians did with the sale of the carrier, I don't see much chances for Rafale in IN.