Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[halloweene]

The last time i spoke to a Dassault executive, they seemed very commited. But the process of ToT is very complex to set up.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

This is my understanding

Logically any program of an aircraft being designed and produced requires time and money. The number of aircraft's produced over time tilts the costing downwards what is known simply as economies of scale...
Now coming to present situation.. The deal holds not only significance to India but more to France...
Why to France
1. The costing needs to come down any ways
2. The proven platform needs wider acceptance beyond French Airforce
3. A 15-20 Billion scalp is something which makes ppl look at the bird second time to understand why India Chose it
4. The political ramifications are huge domestically in case the deal is lost
5. The scope of employment and the project future would slow down
6. European nations economic growth is somewhat lower than India which has a demand supply curve way for economic growth.. the supply is set to rise up so expect growth to pick up too meaning more budget for newer purchases
7. Scope of selling other weapon system like scorpene etc meaning new deals, money and employment guarantee for future

Why to India
1. IAF pressure as MMRCA is a long process
2. The concept of point defense by LCA Mk1 and MK2, air superiority by SU 30 MKI, stealth configuration via FGFA and omnirole via Rafale.. The rest of the birds what we have over time needs to be replaced and the birds i quoted needs to be manufactured as well as factor in delays in production & induction..
3. The political ramification of not able to close a deal making investment clause under the contract void and slowing the process of development of aero industry in India as private players first time had been roped in a big way.
4. The ability to partner with France and Dassault for further enhancing the bird and upgrades which can be more custom made
5. The continuous support of France for Permanent Membership to Security Council and the support at international level
6. The viable alternative to Russia and USA for defense purchases giving us the bargaining power
7. Utilisation of this deal to get newer things like investment of France on power projects via Areva as well as def purchases for Navy (Scorpene subs etc)

The deal just cant be thrown away. What is written till now on papers/media is nothing but false advertisement. The costs , capability etc are all myths and here say by fanboys and ppl. Every airforce of country would choose the best possible platform based on the budget, availability and country relationship resulting into political, economical and international stature gains. That is why Brazil choose Saab, UAE chose Euro Typhon, Pakistan choose JF 17. Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best. There is nothing which may indicate an inferiority or superiority. Nobody should forget that all of them are machines and are under the control of a human being and brain.. So its the concept of best skill set which will prove the superiority. The country which invests in proper training, mock tests and big exercises would be better prepared then who does not. Hence the fanboys claim of any aircraft being superior or inferior is utter gibberish..

Let me quote a simple example.. If u buy a laptop of best latest configuration and give it to a user who does nt know how to utilise the lappy or has medium skillset or best skill set, u can automatically know what could be the result in each of the cases.

my understanding of a pros and cons analysis says india is signing a 126+63 followon order (supposedly) + a new understanding that Rafale would be upgraded from 4.5++ to much closer to 5/4.5+++ except certain stealth configuration which are not possible. the sweetening of deal is not known till some insider let us know.. but be certain, this deal is going through.. whatever negative publicity happens, its still and it will be signed between Dassault and India

this is just my pure understanding

 

[halloweene]

100% agree.

 

[sancho]

The last time i spoke to a Dassault executive, they seemed very commited. But the process of ToT is very complex to set up.

They should be, not only because they lost Brazil and the UAE are milking France badly, but because of the advantages it would give French industry to get additional fundings for upgrades, reduced costs for the production of parts and the unit costs for the fighter and French weapons. The problem is only, that this commitment came very late only in the Indian tender, compared to what we could see in Brazil, or even how far you are ready to compromise with the UAE an matters not related with the Rafale.
Btw, you had a report about the Rafaut multi pylon for C130s on your (if I'm not wrong) website, which also are producing the pylons for Rafale. Is it safe to assume that any stealth weapon pod that Rafale might get in future, will be developed by them?

 

[sancho]

Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best. There is nothing which may indicate an inferiority or superiority. Nobody should forget that all of them are machines and are under the control of a human being and brain.. So its the concept of best skill set which will prove the superiority. The country which invests in proper training, mock tests and big exercises would be better prepared then who does not. Hence the fanboys claim of any aircraft being superior or inferior is utter gibberish..

That's not correct, you can compare fighters on their technical capabilities and can say the one is better than the other. If you know requirements of a country in a fighter competition, you can also so which fighters suits better to the requirements. But at the end of the day, many competitions are decided by politics or the plain reality of low financial budgets as seen in Switzerland and Brazil now. They both wanted more out of the deal, but had to take the one that they can afford at the end and not the one that might be technically better, or offered more political / strategic benefits.
For us industrial and operational advantages were more important than politics and the increased costs were a calculated risk, that was taken to get more return for our industry too. The problem now however is, that such high expenses will not be very popular during elections and too many Indians will blind themselfs with LCA achieving IOC2, ignoring that LCA is still years away from operational service and even further away from Rafales operational capabilities. Will be interesting to see what BJP and AAP will state wrt MMRCA if the deal is not cleared in the next few weeks.

 

[halloweene]

They should be, not only because they lost Brazil and the UAE are milking France badly, but because of the advantages it would give French industry to get additional fundings for upgrades, reduced costs for the production of parts and the unit costs for the fighter and French weapons. The problem is only, that this commitment came very late only in the Indian tender, compared to what we could see in Brazil, or even how far you are ready to compromise with the UAE an matters not related with the Rafale.
Btw, you had a report about the Rafaut multi pylon for C130s on your (if I'm not wrong) website, which also are producing the pylons for Rafale. Is it safe to assume that any stealth weapon pod that Rafale might get in future, will be developed by them?

I dont know. The only thing i know is that such a stealth weapon pod was designed for Korean tender in 2002 i think

 

[halloweene]

Not my blog btw, i simply write some articles in. Did you like the one on stealth and radars?

 

[Taygibay]

Dear Parikrama,

That is why Brazil choose Saab, UAE chose Euro Typhon, Pakistan choose JF 17. Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best.

Sorry Parik but that contains a huge error, check here :
UAE pulls out of BAE Eurofighter Typhoon deal | GulfNews.com
Britain's ambitions in the Gulf suffer blow as UAE rejects Typhoon deal - Telegraph

The second of these articles, however confirms part two of what Sancho answered you on weapons deal, namely that they often are more dependent on geo-politics than on the arms themselves. He was also partially right in saying that you can compare jets. The only restriction I would put on that being that some fighters are built around a very specific tactical view/complement and that you are also thus partially right in putting the abilities of the air force and its pilots forward. You can compare SHornets, Typhies and Raffys. Comparing F-22 with Rafale is different though. One on one the Rafale does more whereas the Raptor does what it does a little better although we'd have to see each try to invade say China to confirm that? But that's also where such comparisons become skewed as you'd really have to compare the Rafale to a combo of F-22s and F-35s since these are meant for use as a duo? And if that seems to favor the US choice, you'd then have to factor in the price of each solution. And so on. It all has to be put back into context.
Sancho was also correct on the huge differences between LCA whichever Mk and Rafale. Many other Indian posters often seem to think that Tejas = Rafale which is honestly ludicrous. He was however wrong in saying :

I guess we are too distracted by LCA and FGFA, while the French side (mainly Dassault) is not eager to see India as a real partner.

I find it strange how so many folks confuse Dassault with Rafale international at best and the French govt at worse. Right before that remark, he mentioned HMS, IRST, EW and missiles, none of which are Dassault products! So faulting Dassault in the same post is squarely illogical? Especially since real co-development on the plane itself is ridiculous as, again and again sorry to be blunt, the people that made LCA are not up to the task of making a Rafale 2.0, period.
The same holds for the engines & equipment by the way. In order to successfully share development, you need one of the 2 following situations : the 2 firms are close in capacity and split the workload along each's forte/strongpoints or you qualify one as lead and integrator over the others ( nEUROn ). The bad choice is to split the job for socio-political reasons ( ex. : Typhoon's 2 diff. factories for wings : L Italy R Spain Eurofighter Production ).
THAT is the bug Dassault really had with HAL's role in the MMRCA deal. I agree 100% that this role was outlined in the RFP/tender on India's side but just as much that the past does not warrant entrusting crore, result, limb and life to a corp known for dragging its feet and falling behind expectations. You are entitled to disagree with that view but not to pin anything else on Dassault which by the way has JVs in India as Thales does.
The problem then falls back on governments. On GoI's side lays the responsibility of becoming less rigid and creative about its armament industry's deals. On the Fr Govt's side falls pretty much everything else. Our politicos have no more long-term memory than long-term vision and cannot be trusted to commit to hard decisions. I personally think it would have been an all-out win-win situation for France to : make a joint offer to export the Rafale to BOTH India and Brazil with local assembly lines AND subcontracting some manufacturing to each while at the same time making them minor partners in the development of the MLU and later junior partners in the development of the successor. The complexity of that deal would have been balanced by the economy of scale and a sales agreement : Brazil for South / Central America, India for Asia below PAK_Bharat_Taiwan line Australia excluded and France the rest of the world. This would also have put France in a more normal philosophico-political alignment with a human globalization that its past and universalistic ideas call for thus insuring the creation of a third axis to the US/cash-led and Communist Ru/China one making the world truly multipolar!
Sadly, I don't believe that on average my politicians have the mental or moral abilities to see that far and that clearly. L'esprit des Lumières does not shine farther than 5 years ( to the next electoral deadline? ) anymore. Neither Sarkozy nor Hollande nor even Chirac before them are closer to De Gaulle than Modi or Kejriwal are to Gandhi ( The Mahatma not Rahul ).

There is one more reason for India to press on with this deal though than tech or IAF numbers : it was expressed in the last part of your Post :
For India 6- The viable alternative to Russia and USA for defense purchases giving us the bargaining power
That is simply brilliant, my friend. India should keep all options alive by spreading its contracts until it can fulfill them all internally!!! Sign Ru/US/Fr wherever and whenever needed to keep the supply lines open. Once national autonomy is achieved, cutting buys to one or all will in fact be either political leverage or subtle warring. How very Clauswitzian of you, chap! If anyone shows more honesty in the process, it will always be time to make a new true friend?

The alternative being that in 50 years, we all buy Chinese? OMG!


Good day all, Tay.


P.S. No need for a dedicated Squadron to be put under SFC, mate! All Rafales are fully interoperable with one another as this was one of the bases of the program and apart from optional equipment that can be rapidly changed ( 1-1/2 H at worst ), they all can do everything, a plus that is mostly overlooked compared to tranche/block programs. Our Nuke Rafales do deep strike with Scalp when not needed for Nuclear alert and any bird can be reassigned to any unit for instance? The only mod needed is the govt authorization box!

 

[sancho]

I dont know. The only thing i know is that such a stealth weapon pod was designed for Korean tender in 2002 i think

For the Korean tender? That's surprising, I heared about showcasing the AESA demo but weapon pods back then, when even Rafales A2G capabilities were basic is strange. Do you have any reports or links about that, would be interesting.

Not my blog btw, i simply write some articles in. Did you like the one on stealth and radars?

Yes and I found it interesting, my perception however is a bit different, since "stealth" and "low observability" are not the same. "Stealth" capability in it's core begins with the design of the aircraft, that is aimed to offer as less signatures (no matter if EM, IR...) as possible and that is not the case for the Rafale.
Yes it has a low IR signature, but not because it hides the engine exhaust like the B2 does, nor does it use nozzles similar to the F22, or even cooling materials behind the exhaust like the YF23 did, as part of their designs. Rafales low IR signature comes from the engine itself and that might give it an advantage to other 4th & 4.5th gen fighters, but not to stealth fighters / aircrafts.
Same goes for the RCS reductions, where the Rafale incorporates a lot of features, but it still is dependent on external payloads, which again makes it better than most 4th & 4.5th gen fighters, but not to stealth fighters / aircrafts.

The key advantage of Rafale however, are it's advanced passive detection and weapon guidance capabilities and that's where it's very close to a 5th gen capabilities. Being able to attack air and ground target roughly 60Km around the fighter, without the need to use active guidance, or to make itself detectable is a huge advantage and what sets it apart from most comparable fighters. So the EWS, optronics capabilities in combination with the unique features of MICA (IR - passive BVR attack, AASM - multiple stand off range attacks in 1 pass) makes the Rafale so advanced and to an extend comparable to 5th gen fighters wrt tactics. At the end of the day however, real stealth capabilities puts those tactics to a whole different level than Rafale currently can achieve and that's why internal carriage of fuel and weapons are a must have for Rafales future.

 

[sancho]

I find it strange how so many folks confuse Dassault with Rafale international at best and the French govt at worse. Right before that remark, he mentioned HMS, IRST, EW and missiles, none of which are Dassault products! So faulting Dassault in the same post is squarely illogical?

Actually, that is not illogical at all, since Dassault is a major shareholder in Thales and even showed how much influence they have by pressuring Thales to back out of a possible deal with Saab, to provide RBE 2 AESA demonstrator for the Gripen NG.

However that wasn't my point, but that it would be beneficial for the French side (Thales, Sagem and Dassault) to offer India a partnership in the F3R upgrade (we were talking about Indias say in possible upgrades), that will come at the same time as the licence production in India is aimed to start as well and therefor could include jointly developed techs and capabilities or weapon additions. The fact that the F3R instead is only focused on the needs of French forces instead, shows the limited interest in a real partnership. Thinks like the the Gerfault HMS, NG IRST, PDL-NG, MICA/Maitri NG, AASM modifications could be funded, developed and produced together, instead of India being just a possible buyer of these features.
It can even go the other way around, with Indian Helina ATGM being jointly developed as a low collateral damage and cost-effective weapon, that the French forces are requesting since Libya. The joint development than could include French requirements and still would be cheaper than the high costs the Brits asked for Brimstone integration. So both sides can benefit from joint developments of the upgrade, while that would increase the chances not only for a fast decision, but also for increased numbers and ease ToT.

And I mentioned mainly Dassault since they, unlike Thales (that teamed up with Samtel years ago) or the former president Sarkozy had showed much more interest in the Indian deal, than Dassault. They also are the restricting part in the negotiations with the UAE, which even French government forced to publicly voice their anger. So if Dassault would had seen India as more than just a customer and even earlier, they can and could had benefitted way more, maybe even got the Brazilian deal (Brazilian defence minister tried to convince India to joint Rafale productions).

 

[halloweene]

Sancho, we don't know what partnerships are offered, and F3R standard are already defined and funded (or so). Partnership would be about F4 Std.
About the weapon case, it is a personal communication of a Dassault vice president (good restaurant btw ) ).
About the article, are you sure we are talking about the part 2?

 

[halloweene]

About foruming and my supposed animosity towards Mr Jon Lake, here is the reason : Pete Collins has flown Tornado F2 ; GR1 ; GR4, Kai T50, M346, F16B, Mirage 2000...(as its gonna be released in Air Fan this month i can dislose it). So much for people who criticized his knowledge of modern FBW jets after his article Rampant Rafale.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Heard Some News ... posting it .. hopefully it turns out as true..

TUESDAY, JANUARY 7, 2014
EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA on the move?
Neelam Mathews
Jan 7, 2014

While many have been skeptical about the MMRCA contract - not without reason- AerospaceDiary is hearing there is a CCS today to view the contract/project. This could not be confirmed from an official source.
Should this come through, India's defense industry, hopefully, will get the much needed push- given that all issues related to the DPP are cleared with sane thinking. Hopefully vested interests will not stall the project. We are hearing the MMRCA is quoted in international circles as one of the best evaluations done on a military project.


About Neelam Matthews: Contributing editor to numerous international publications on business aviation, defense and commercial aviation. Also write for ENR, a Mc Graw Hill publication. Contributed to Aviation Week for 12 years writing on aviation, space, defense, overhaul and maintenance and business aviation. Was Editorial Director to 3 MRO Asia events in Singapore and Hong Kong.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Continuing from precious post #8848

The rumor soon began Jan. 2, via the aerospacediary blog , run by an Indian journalist, who then announced that a first contract could be signed with the GIE Rafale by 15 February. Today, that same person returns to the charge , announcing a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security should be held today, but will not be officially confirmed.

The reporter seems to have these sources, and the image of the folha Sao Paulo which the rumor was confirmed, hope things are confirmed.

Two years now after selecting the Rafale by India at the end of the most big competition ever organized, and entered into exclusive negotiations between the Indian government and the GIE Rafale International (Economic Interest Grouping combining Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran),

India seems to speed things up.Several perspectives, including elections in May 2014 that will prevent any decision of this order of importance during the campaign.

The other perspective is it economic. Indian rupee continues to devalue, which has the mechanical effect of increasing the contract price.

Although much of the aircraft will be manufactured and assembled in India, the first 18 aircraft will be delivered by Dassault Aviation and produced entirely in France.

There is also an important part of technology transfer payable to French companies and the exchange rate plays a lot.

As usual, the main actors refuse to comment.

Ongoing negotiations, but also the preparation of contracts has been one of the most complex Dassault Aviation had to lead.

Not far from a hundred employees are also present in India Indian companies to audit and prepare tens of thousands of pages necessary, prior to the final signature.

 

[halloweene]

Do i recognize the source ))