Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

The question once again, how do you know the Rafale's entered hostile Libyan airspace unsupported by other air or surface assets?
You really ought to look up the meaning of CAS.

Because the first officially reported missions by aircrafts were French Rafale and Mirage, US B2 and British Tornados with Storm Shadow cruise missiles, the Growlers and other coalition fighters were deployed later only!

P.S.:

...The French defense ministry emphasized its speedy response, 48 hours after adoption of the U.N. resolution and the ability to project force in a complex air operation and in such volume.

The first combat aircraft, four Rafales, took off at 11 a.m. from Saint-Dizier-Robinson Air Base to assure the interception mission over Benghazi, an area of 150 km by 100 km. They were refueled in the air and directed by the AWACS aircraft, which flew from Avord air base. Two other Rafales flew reconnaissance missions, one equipped with the Reco NG intelligence gathering pod. Six C135 inflight refueling tankers from Istres air base took part in the operations.

Two Mirage 2000D fighter-bombers took off from Nancy air base, and two Mirage 2000-5 multirole aircraft flew from Dijon to perform ground strike and escort missions.

A patrol of two Rafales from Saint Dizier was equipped with the Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) smart bomb to provide close air support and also armed for air defense...

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6007194&c=EUR&s=AIR

As you can see, without support of EW aircrafts, especially not in these missions

 

[kingdurgaking]

defence.professionals | defpro.com


Repeating the same wrong points (that I already countered) and making things up like the flight hours, makes you look desperate don't you think? You clearly don't see the MKI with a rational point of view, which makes further discussions pointless.

Not sure what you countered?? typhoon flying for 5 hours with external tanks and mid air refueling?? you mean they fly only with external tanks for 5 hours without mid air refuelling? ... i have countered with a whole huge point on payload and radar detection.. which you cooly avoided... no use in getting angry with me..

 

[kingdurgaking]

One US official quoted by Associated Press news agency said the Libyan plane shot down by France was a G-2/Galeb, a training aircraft with a single engine. The French plane involved was a Rafale fighter, the same US official said

what an achievement

 

[sancho]

Not sure what you countered?? typhoon flying for 5 hours with external tanks and mid air refueling?? you mean they fly only with external tanks for 5 hours without mid air refuelling? ... i have countered with a whole huge point on payload and radar detection.. which you cooly avoided... no use in getting angry with me..

The fact that your hypothetical multi pylons that don't exist for Flankers can be deployed on EF, or other aircrafts as well, so the MKI even in this scenario has no advantage, just like it don't have in a realistic A2A config. That's why it's just poor logic too count them for the one, but ignore it for the other! Btw, it's not me who made up that EF flow only 1h including mid air refuelling, just to say it has not a comparable fuel fraction isn't it?
Try to compare with facts, then you will see the truth!

 

[sancho]

RAF EFs that are deployed in Libya:

 

[kingdurgaking]

The fact that your hypothetical multi pylons that don't exist for Flankers can be deployed on EF, or other aircrafts as well, so the MKI even in this scenario has no advantage, just like it don't have in a realistic A2A config. That's why it's just poor logic too count them for the one, but ignore it for the other! Btw, it's not me who made up that EF flow only 1h including mid air refuelling, just to say it has not a comparable fuel fraction isn't it?
Try to compare with facts, then you will see the truth!

I have compared with what is stated in wiki... you show any pics of EFT carrying BVR in multi pylon we will close the discussion here

 

[sancho]

I have compared with what is stated in wiki... you show any pics of EFT carrying BVR in multi pylon we will close the discussion here

LOL, I don't have to, you brought that up not me! I always took realistic configs and in such the EF carries the same weapon load than an MKI with EW pods. It's not my fault that you can't admit this fact!

 

[dbc]

Because the first officially reported missions by aircrafts were French Rafale and Mirage, US B2 and British Tornados with Storm Shadow cruise missiles, the Growlers and other coalition fighters were deployed later only!

P.S.:



France Deploys About 20 Aircraft to Enforce Libya No-Fly Zone - Defense News

As you can see, without support of EW aircrafts, especially not in these missions

Five F/A-18 Growler have been seen over Italy since the morning of March 19. The Rafale engaged its first target at 1745 on March 19, considering 30 minutes flight time from Southern Italy to Benghazi, how can you rule out Growler or other EW assistance to the French operation on March 19.
How can you rule out Mirage EW support for the Rafale? Did you receive a combat debrief from the French?

The fact that Rafale was used to enter their airspace before CM strikes and without dedicated EW aircrafts like the F18 Growlers, showes the capability of SPECTRA and that the French forces are more than confident about it. The opponent fighters might not be an issue and they have no AWACS either, but the ground radars and SAMs are a threat for any fighter, that's why the US deployed the Growlers and F16 CJs, or UK used their Tornados, to have capable protection in SEAD, although they are using anti radiation missiles from longer range.
In terms of RCS you also have to keep in mind, that the Rafales so far were deployed from bases in France, that's why they had to carry so many fuel tanks, which obviously increased the RCS.

 

[kingdurgaking]

LOL, I don't have to, you brought that up not me! I always took realistic configs and in such the EF carries the same weapon load than an MKI with EW pods. It's not my fault that you can't admit this fact!

LoL you cant prove eighter it can carry.. b.t.w you mean to say MKI doesnt have EW?i am sure it has EW built internal... as per the Red flag .. the US Air force chief very well mentioned that it jammed.... it doesnt need to carry external...

And in a debate you cant assume that you are right always.. you have to prove with pics or some source... buddy.. it is not my assumption or your assumption to speak what we like..

and an Air superiority fighter tag against MKI

...

I dont deny it is good.. it has good avionics.. but no payload see the pics.. max 8 missile for the role it is deployed

 

[luckyyy]

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? - The price of the intervention in Libya

One hour flight for a Rafale=13 000 euros ,for the Mirage between 10 000 and 11 000 euros. At a time when governments are to the economy, the cost of the intervention in Libya is discussed in the coalition countries.

With 55 outputs, the French Rafale and Mirage 2000 Monday night totaled more than 400 flight hours, says Agence France-Presse, which notes that these cost estimates do not include the price of fuel.

"Warning" , however, warning France Info : These devices generate an expenditure, whether incurred or not. Cost under the operating budget of the Ministry of Defence, which amounts to 31 billion euros for 2011 notes the radio. In Liberation ( item fee), an "expert" adds: "But they fly in the French sky during training or during missions, these flights have cost anyway." The arrival Tuesday on the area the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle should also limit the roundtrips of aircraft based in France.

COMBIEN ÇA COÛTE ? - Le prix de l’intervention en Libye - Big Browser - Blog LeMonde.fr

and the operating cost of Rafale is nothing less then that of a MKI..

 

[Black Widow]

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? - The price of the intervention in Libya

One hour flight for a Rafale: 13 000 euros for the Mirage, between 10 000 and 11 000 euros. At a time when governments are to the economy, the cost of the intervention in Libya is discussed in the coalition countries.

With 55 outputs, the French Rafale and Mirage 2000 Monday night totaled more than 400 flight hours, says Agence France-Presse, which notes that these cost estimates do not include the price of fuel.

"Warning" , however, warning France Info : These devices generate an expenditure, whether incurred or not. Cost under the operating budget of the Ministry of Defence, which amounts to 31 billion euros for 2011 notes the radio. In Liberation ( item fee), an "expert" adds: "But they fly in the French sky during training or during missions, these flights have cost anyway." The arrival Tuesday on the area the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle should also limit the roundtrips of aircraft based in France.

COMBIEN ÇA COÛTE ? - Le prix de l’intervention en Libye - Big Browser - Blog LeMonde.fr

There are sometime where we need to think larger than life... If World will not listen to Lybia it may turn into failed state, Its time to take a side, and liberate the Lybia from Tyrant....

The world ignored Somalia and you can see the outcome, every month they (somalian) are hijacking boats... Do you want another Somalia in Meditrarian???? gaddafi must go, by negotiation or by power...

Initial cost of these operation must be high, but it will be fruitfull in future....

 

[angeldemon_007]

@kingdurgaking
I found this pic of eurofighter...

 

[kingdurgaking]

@kingdurgaking
I found this pic of eurofighter...

yeah 3 hardpoints wetted .... which ultimately reduces the fighter performance to a huge amount...
i dont deny EFT is a good Air superiority slowly migrating to multi role.... it has too good avionics to do air superiority....
But my argument from day 1 is if while EFT does the role of Air superiority comparing vis MKI it has to compromise on weapons load for range or compromise on range for weapon load .. which is not the problem with MKI... MKI can do that in ease on range and pay load at the same time(An important parameter for any mission)... though RCS is big ... it ultimately has a too good radar to lock on EFT and launch couple of archers way before EFT does... which sancho is not able to understand.... my point is compromise vis MKI.... so MKI stays a head... and i am stating the fact of 14 hardpoints only from Wiki..

 

[jha]

Whistleblower Episode A Death Blow To Rafale?

Could the Indian government use the Aero India 2011 bribery scandal to eliminate Dassault from the IAF medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition and cancel the near-concluded Mirage-2000 upgrade contract? Possibly not. However, despite two separate assertions by the MoD that the episode (see last two posts) would not affect or delay the competition, sources reveal that nothing is off the table just yet. It should be said, however, that while the IAF has formally conveyed to the MoD its intention to bar Dassault's Posina V Rao, it has made no recommendation about Dassault at large. Nevertheless, that remains a sliver of a lifeline, given how episodes like these can escalate into a full-scale blacklisting.

If you thought this was a minor episode with no potential repercussions, you couldn't be more wrong. The implications are huge. There are several theories doing the rounds already -- of a larger cover-up by the IAF, of competitors goading the IAF to eliminate the French, of wanton indiscretions, you know the drill. As of now, however, Dassault insists that its Indian pointsperson, Posina V Rao, merely filed a complaint, and was being penalised for following rules. Obviously the IAF doesn't see it that way. Mr Rao apparently sees himself as a whistleblower caught in the decidedly delicate crossfire of turf battles between the IAF and MoD, a place no one wants to ever be caught in, least of all the representative of a foreign arms company. Legal options could be afoot, I'm told. The IAF feels it has fool-proof reasons to blackball the Dassault man, and will stick to its guns. For a company that has remained compulsively off the scandal radar and deliberately low-profile to a fault, this new episode is a true nightmare. So what now?

There are several questions, as always. One, PV Rao couldn't have made the complaint without the authorisation of his superiors in France -- so was this a high-level faux pas by a company with possibly more experience in light-stepping around Indian government turfs than any of the other competitors? Two, if Dassault was merely a whistleblower on an act of corruption, why is the IAF cutting off the man who filed the complaint? Three, is there more to the Dassault complaint than meets the eye? Four, has Dassault come out with all the facts of the episode, or is there more that is not being revealed? Five, why wasn't the base commander of Yelahanka considered an appropriate person to file the complaint with? Six, why has the MoD not fleshed out its stand on the episode?

Livefist: Whistleblower Episode A Death Blow To Rafale?

 

[sancho]

The Rafale engaged its first target at 1745 on March 19...
...how can you rule out Growler or other EW assistance to the French operation on March 19.

From 1:30 pm today, French Air Force fighters have been engaged over Libya. Their perform air defence missions to enforce the no-fly zone in the Benghazi area and prevent Colonel Gaddafi's aircraft from flying. They also perform strikes on the ground on identified military targets which are a threat for the civilian population.

Libya : French air operations begin

Just shows how mistaken you are and that you have not a single point here, French fighters officially was the first to engage combats, while B2s was officially the first US aircrafts. As usual you are just speculating and ignoring the facts that the Growlers was not present at that time and not in such missions (air policing and recon)!

LoL you cant prove eighter it can carry

Of course I can't, because it's just a made up scenario that you came up with and you can't prove for the MKI either, because it don't has such pylons. The point is, there is no reason why the MKI should be able to carry them and the EF can not and that's what you ignore. That's why I said, don't just speculate and made up arguments for the MKI, stay on facts that can be compared on equal and rational basis, anything else simply don't make sense and makes a discussion pointless!

And in a debate you cant assume that you are right always.. you have to prove with pics or some source... buddy.. it is not my assumption or your assumption to speak what we like...

That's what I did from the start, when I showed you official Sukhoi specs to counter you wrong assumptions about payload and MTOW. That's what I did when I calculted the TWR and fuel fractions in different load configs, to prove that the EF is better in both. That's what I did when I even showed you pics proving that the EF has more wingstations, that can carry a higher weight and that they could carry your hypothetical multi pylons. So my points are backed up quiet well don't you think?

b.t.w you mean to say MKI doesnt have EW?i am sure it has EW built internal... as per the Red flag .. the US Air force chief very well mentioned that it jammed.... it doesnt need to carry external...

The Elta jamming pods are carried externally and were not deployed on any exercises, just like our Mirage, or Jags had to carry these pods on external stations, while latest fighters like EF, Rafale, or Su 35, integrate them into EW pods. Rafale carries them on the tail fin, EF and Su 35 on the wingtips. Sudhir posted a pic of an MKI model, with new EW features from DARE, which included the ECM wingtippods of the Su 35 as well and that leaves 10 hardpoints for missiles. Btw, the RAF EFs in Libya still has 1 centerline station and inner wingstations left, which are not loaded on the pic.