Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

YouTube - MMRCA

While walking on the road if u see some papers.. just dont ignore.. could be MRCA deal papers.

 

[doctor_who]

Secret IAF file found on roadside in Delhi

Secret IAF file found on roadside in Delhi

New Delhi: A secret file related to over USD 11 billion deal for procuring 126 multirole combat aircraft went missing from the Defence Ministry and has been found on the roadside in New Delhi, prompting the Indian Air Force to order a probe into the incident.

The secret file is related to the Offsets clause in the deal and was found on the roadside in a Delhi locality recently, IAF officials said, adding that the file has been recovered.

"The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry (CoI) into the loss of the secret file which went missing from the Defence Ministry. The Ministry will order a separate probe into the incident as the file had gone missing from there," Air Vice Marshal M Matheswaran, Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) said.

The incident comes at a time when the multi-billion dollar deal has entered the critical stage after the IAF carried out extensive flight evaluation trials of the six participating aircraft.

The IAF had submitted its report to the Defence Ministry, which has to take a final call on the deal.
He said the IAF had ordered the probe under a senior official to find out how the file had gone missing from the Ministry as it belonged to the Air Force.

"The secret file has been recovered and it is in our custody," he added.

However, it was not clear as to how and who recovered the file.

Under the Offsets clause in the defence production procedure, a foreign vendor bagging any deal worth over Rs. 300 crore has to invest back at least 30 per cent of the contract's worth back in Indian defence sector.

Under the M-MRCA deal, the offsets were pegged at 50 per cent of the worth of the deal. American F-16 and F/A-18, French Rafale, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG 35 and European Eurofighter are the six contenders participating the deal for supplying the aircraft to the IAF.

 

[angeldemon_007]

You've got it wrong mate, Gripen NG was the last contender to be tested in MMRCA field trials.

Thats what i am saying that wasn't gripen NG. They never fielded NG for trial because it was called back for operational clearance because of some problems in upgrades. Read this and njoy:
http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1736&thisSection=military

I don't know where you got the above info but thats totally false, Gripen is a single engine jet.

Sorry, not twin engine. Twin seater, which is also requirement of IAF and which gripen is not but in Gripen NG they will be offering.

Not just american parts/engine but it has several components imported from other countries (including proposed AESA radar).

Dude, the aesa on gripen ng is Raven AESA radar developed jointly by Saab and Selex Galileo.
I know they have many parts from different countries but the only problem which we might face would from US companies.

How many different fighters do you expect IAF to have (Mirage, MIGs, Sukhoi, LCA, PAK-FA, AMCA)?

Let me assure you there's a new platform coming. Only if Rafale wins then there wont be problem of platform. But everything points towards Typhoon. By the way purchase would be sanctioned by GOI and not IAF and even they also want Typhoon/Rafale(might be false news but they are really good fighter. I supported gripen because of the deal they are offering.)

though it is more prone to sanctions and restrictions for tech transfer, whatever SAAB might assure now

I also raised my concern on that.

 

[sancho]

good question....


Complete bullshit.......
Gripen NG is an advanced version of gripen which is being used by many countries. That means atleast the platform is being tested. If gripen is under testing then what about Rafale ??/ Its only used by France.

You have to understand the differences! Rafale F3 which is in use of French forces now, will just get some tech upgrades, to the the F3+ level that is offered for us. RBE 2 PESA radar will be RBE 2 AESA, M88-2 engine will be M88 - 2 E4, some upgrades on the avionics... Same goes for EF, or F16IN, (avionics and CFTs) and F18SH will be just without changes, while the Mig and Gripen E/F will get also new airframes, which makes it comparable to the changes from the F18 Hornet to Super Hornet. Also the techs that will be available with the new Gripen, are new developments, not just upgrades. The AESA radar is new and will only get some parts of the radar that is available in the Gripen C/D. The engine will be completely new and not only slightly upgraded. IRST is not available on the Gripen at all and will be a new tech as well...
As you can see, there are clear points why the Gripen far away from beeing mature, proven, or tested, especially as long as it is available only as a tech demonstrator yet.

the procces of selecting the mmrca is in final stages and not in the initial stages...
do we need to remind ourself what is the final stage.......Commertical Bidding..

therefore the chances of L1 bidder ....only winning.....

Wrong! First comes the shortlistings of those fighters that suites our requirements, be it technical of IAF, offset, ToT... of MoD. When that is done, we will receive the final bids of the vendors and MoD will take a decision about it hopefully next summer.

 

[sancho]

Thats what i am saying that wasn't gripen NG. They never fielded NG for trial because it was called back for operational clearance because of some problems in upgrades.

Rafter is right, Saab fielded the Gripen NG in the trials, but only to do the Leh flights once again after the Gripen C/D made all the trials before. Which also shows that delays are more than likely, because it's just under development and has no orders yet.

 

[luckyyy]

First comes the shortlistings of those fighters that suites our requirements, be it technical of IAF, offset, ToT... of MoD. When that is done, we will receive the final bids of the vendors and MoD will take a decision about it hopefully next summer.

all six suits IAF requirement , so did IAF cleared all in technical evaluation and field trial...

it will be MoD now which will take decision on offset & commertcial bidding only..

the shortlisting will be now based on only offset & bidding..

 

[sancho]

all six suits IAF requirement , so did IAF cleared all in technical evaluation and field trial...

How do you know, did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?
All 6 fighters were cleared to enter the technical evaluation, but only during the technical evaluation IAF can find out if the infos the vendors provided are correct and suits IAF requirements.

 

[Mani2020]

When will the MRCA be finalized?

Is there any kind of short-listing of the aircrafts or still all six are competing?

 

[luckyyy]

How do you know, did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?
All 6 fighters were cleared to enter the technical evaluation, but only during the technical evaluation IAF can find out if the infos the vendors provided are correct and suits IAF requirements.

feild trails conducted only after technical evaluations..
yes , all 6 has been cleared by IAF in the technical and field trails...

i find no logic going personal saying " did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?....

 

[sancho]

feild trails conducted only after technical evaluations..
yes , all 6 has been cleared by IAF in the technical and field trails...

i find no logic going personal saying " did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?....

Field trials = technical evaluation! Before that, IAF just evalueted the specifications about the fighters that the vendors, nothing more. So that was the theory and now they did the practical evaluation and only now they will be able to say which fighters suits their requirements and which not.
That wasn't personal, but you claim things that nobody knows so far and maybe don't even come out after the shortlistings, because IAF/MoD normally won't officially comment on technical points. That's why I wanted to understand how you get to this conclusion.
Try to understand that so far we still just check which fighters and bids suits our requirements, those who fulfill them will be shortlisted and only then we will get the final bids of the vendors and then MoD might chose the L1 bidder. But once again, L1 from those who were shortlisted, not from all 6 contenders and L1 does not mean the lowest unit cost, but includes life cycle, or ToT costs too.

 

[luckyyy]

Field trials = technical evaluation! Before that, IAF just evalueted the specifications about the fighters that the vendors, nothing more. So that was the theory and now they did the practical evaluation and only now they will be able to say which fighters suits their requirements and which not.
That wasn't personal, but you claim things that nobody knows so far and maybe don't even come out after the shortlistings, because IAF/MoD normally won't officially comment on technical points. That's why I wanted to understand how you get to this conclusion.
Try to understand that so far we still just check which fighters and bids suits our requirements, those who fulfill them will be shortlisted and only then we will get the final bids of the vendors and then MoD might chose the L1 bidder. But once again, L1 from those who were shortlisted, not from all 6 contenders and L1 does not mean the lowest unit cost, but includes life cycle, or ToT costs too.

technical evaluation was studed before the feild trails, there IAF check with each vendor about their fighter specification and findout is they fit in IAF requirments...remember , there was a news that rafale didn't fullfill during technical evaluation but later matter sorted and it take part in field trails..
IAF has repeatdly made statements that they has cleared all six in feild trails and not downselect anyone , the report submitted to MoD..enough material available on net , ..

currently offset proposals are under study of all six...natually opening commercial bidding will follow next , for all six ..

what made you think that MoD will ask for offset and bidding for a aircraft which hasn't fullfill the IAF requirements..

 

[sancho]

technical evaluation was studed before the feild trails, there IAF check with each vendor about their fighter specification and findout is they fit in IAF requirments...remember , there was a news that rafale didn't fullfill during technical evaluation but later matter sorted and it take part in field trails..
IAF has repeatdly made statements that they has cleared all six in feild trails and not downselect anyone , the report submitted to MoD..enough material available on net , ..

currently offset proposals are under study of all six...natually opening commercial bidding will follow next , for all six ..

Once again, they cleared the proposals of the vendors to the field trials!
The field trials are the technical evaluation!

 

[angeldemon_007]

Rafter is right, Saab fielded the Gripen NG in the trials, but only to do the Leh flights once again after the Gripen C/D made all the trials before.

Look man....i really want to know where you got this info, i posted the link that suggested that NG was never fielded, please give some official source suggesting NG was fielded during Leh testing...I am just curious
Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.

Rafale F3 which is in use of French forces now, will just get some tech upgrades, to the the F3+ level that is offered for us. RBE 2 PESA radar will be RBE 2 AESA, M88-2 engine will be M88 - 2 E4, some upgrades on the avionics...

AESA in Rafale is already tested but they have not yet started upgrading their fighter.

Also the techs that will be available with the new Gripen, are new developments, not just upgrades.

According to IAF's requirement none of the fighter are suitable. Every fighter had to include some new technology to meet the requirement. Like Rafale, they didn't had AESA they now developed it. Eurofighter didn't have AESA and thrust vectoring tech, but they are developing.

The AESA radar is new and will only get some parts of the radar that is available in the Gripen C/D.

Sorry i didn't get your point. Gripen had a fully developed aesa long before Rafale, eurofighter and MIG35 and it is tested on the fighter. Mig35 and Rafale has also developed their aesa and typhoon will also develop in future but the point is these things have to tested.
Look buddy if it is upto me i would select typhoon, but its the most expensive in the competition.

The engine will be completely new and not only slightly upgraded.

I can't find enough but i think you are mistaken, Gripen NG will be fielded with GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12 which is jointly developed by Volvo-GE for Gripen and is completely based on General Electric F-404-400 (80 KN (18,000lb) thrust class).
Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried.

IRST is not available on the Gripen at all and will be a new tech as well...

Wow man....really i salute you....plz share the intel with us, after all this is why we are here....
Bye the way, i don't see IRST as a feature that would effect too much as it is available in many flying machines and i think Sweden must have tested it on any of them.
Also gripen has the best data link which is important for the mission completion.
Just tell me one thing....recently rafale started falling down, if tomorrow France start to field down their Rafale then what we will do. Look it might not appear as a big problem to you but this is one of the problem which is drawing rafale back. On the other hand gripen is already 270 on order, same with eurofighter.
Although the thing which is against gripen is their borrowed parts from all over the world.
I think that 3 supplier agreement was meant only for this.

 

[the rafter]

Look man....i really want to know where you got this info, i posted the link that suggested that NG was never fielded, please give some official source suggesting NG was fielded during Leh testing...I am just curious
Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.

FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!
WEDNESDAY, MAY 19, 2010
The Gripen Demo aircraft, which landed at Air Force Station Jamnagar, Gujarat on Monday, cleared its high altitude trials in Leh today. Air Force sources confirmed to LiveFist that the aircraft went through the full routine of tests that the Gripen-D did earlier this year. IAF pilots already got a chance to fly the Gripen Demo in the first week of April at Linkoping, Sweden, but calling the Demo airplane to India was necessary to complete all the demands in the field evaluation test (FET) plan.
Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!

Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!
FRIDAY, APRIL 02, 2010
I guess this clears up the debate. For those who were wondering why the Gripen Demo wasn't participating in the trials, the aircraft (see my earlier post) will arrive in India in the middle of May to wrap up the India-phase of MMRCA trials for Saab's JAS-39. A pair of Gripen-Ds recently completed trials in the country at Bangalore, Leh and Jaisalmer.
Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!

"The Gripen Demo aircraft is a flying test platform for the next generation of Gripen and for the further development of the present Gripen C/D aircraft. Together with a ground-based test rig, the Gripen Demonstrator will develop and prove the essential systems and capabilities for the future, including its more powerful General Electric F414G engine, an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced communications and electronic warfare systems."
Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen Supercruises


Gripen Nervous About Ferrying Demo Aircraft To India, But Confident Of Repeat Performance In MMRCA Trials
FRIDAY, APRIL 23, 2010
The Indian Air Force evaluation team that was in Europe for phase-3 flight evaluation trials (FETs) of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen Demo was stranded on the continent by the Icelandic ash cloud. Not sure if they're back yet, but they had a fantastic time in Linkoping, Sweden, during the first week of this month when a member of the IAF team became the first non-Swedish pilot to fly the Gripen Demo from the front cockpit. The team had eight flights in the aicraft, and will fly it again next month. The Gripen Demo will touch down in Jamnagar on May 17, after which the IAF will decide the sequence of trials the airplane will be put through.

While the Gripen people are still basking in the rumours and feedback about how well their pair of Gripen-Ds performed during the India phase of the evaluations, the team is palpably nervous about ferrying the Gripen Demo to India. Met up with Gripen's MMRCA campaign head Eddy de la Motte a couple of days ago. He told me, "While we are very confident that the Demo will perform perfectly in what is demanded of it, we hope there are no problems in bringing it to India. We will be hopping it across from Sweden to India. We don't foresee any problems, but it is after all a prototype, and we can't be too careful." The IAF is likely to put the Gripen Demo through the full gamut of trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh, though probably not in that order. In many ways, evaluating the Gripen Demo will be like testing an entirely different airplane, substantively different as it is from the original that flew in India last month.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/saab-nervous-about-ferrying-demo.html

Gripen NG also referred to as a 'DEMO' because ONLY FEW PROTOTYPES EXIST! It has not began serial production and NO COUNTRY including swedish air force has it. (In June 2010, Saab stated that Sweden plans to order the Gripen NG under the JAS 39E/F designation. The new variant is to enter Swedish service in 2017 or possibly earlier if export orders are received).
I hope this info convinces you?

 

[angeldemon_007]

@ the rafter
Thanx man....its better than googling...