Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SpArK]

Found these photos in the new edition of Lockheed-Martin's Code One magazine of the F-16 Conformal Air Refuelling Tank System (CARTS), a Skunk Works led effort that began on a UAE Air Force Block 60 in 2007, specifically to meet an Indian MMRCA requirement.

The report quotes CARTS engineer Don Thompson as saying, “We needed a test aircraft version of the Block 60 aircraft. The test Block 60 aircraft in the US was tied up with avionics modification and integration to support MMRCA field trials, and we needed a dedicated aircraft for the CARTS portion of the field trials demonstration. We modified the aircraft in the UAE because it was easier and quicker than bringing another Block 60 F-16 into the US to modify and then send it right back to the UAE on the way to India for the field trials."

The report notes that "During the flight testing and MMRCA demonstrations, the CARTS-equipped F-16 successfully received fuel from both a modified DC-10 and an Indian Air Force Ilyushin Il-78 tanker aircraft and made approximately forty aerial refueling contacts. The speed envelope, as tested, is in the range of 250 to 300 knots. The pilot flies the probe into the refueling basket of the drogue from just below at a closing speed of no more than ten knots."


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: PHOTOS: The F-16 Conformal Refuelling Probe For MMRCA

 

[jha]

Why do you think so, are there other plans? I mean we can't rely on old R73, or buy western SR missiles forever right? Sooner, or later we have to develop an own one too and this would have been a good chance.
I know, but Derby is available just for a dozen Harriers only, so in very small numbers and with the induction of Mig 29K and NLCA, they will be phased out anyway. That makes Derby not even a long term alternative for IN, that's why I have doubts about Derby.

I dont know of any other plans..
I was just talking about the culture in which MoD works..
The MAITRI itself has started after great No-Nos from some of the circles..I doubt their attitude will change anytime soon..

I am all for this project if it materializes...
Regarding ASTRA- frankly i do not have much faith on this project..It seems to be a generation old AAM ..( Just range is not everything in BVRAAM ).. We should work with Israel/France to develop a better seeker for ASTRA-II if we want to make this really potent ..

 

[sancho]

I am all for this project if it materializes...
Regarding ASTRA- frankly i do not have much faith on this project..It seems to be a generation old AAM ..( Just range is not everything in BVRAAM ).. We should work with Israel/France to develop a better seeker for ASTRA-II if we want to make this really potent ..

Don't know much about it, but we do have some know how in the missile sector now (Akash, Brahmos) and I do think that we could upgrade it in future with a RAM jet propulsion similar to METEOR, not to forget that we will gain from such co-developments like Maitri, Barak, or Brahmos too, so it has some potential.

 

[jha]

Don't know much about it, but we do have some know how in the missile sector now (Akash, Brahmos) and I do think that we could upgrade it in future with a RAM jet propulsion similar to METEOR, not to forget that we will gain from such co-developments like Maitri, Barak, or Brahmos too, so it has some potential.

ASTRA-II needs to have RAMJET propulsion .
Lets hope we learn something from MAITRI and BARAK..

 

[angeldemon_007]

We should work with Israel/France to develop a better seeker for ASTRA-II if we want to make this really potent ..

Recently barack Obama uplifted the ban from our companies and allowed the trade of critical technologies.
Now we won't have the problems regarding the sale of critical seeker and sensor technology. I hope this scenario will change in the near future.
But working with Israel-France in this field would be best idea.
We need to develop a world class BVR in our home so that it would be cheaper to produce.

 

[GORKHALI]

Quicker Induction of jets
is Key in MMRCA Tender:
IAF Official BY ADMIN AT 31 DECEMBER, 2010, 3:45 AM SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWROK A high ranked serving officer in Indian air force have told (idrw.org), IAF is looking at quicker induction of the jets into air force, and without any further delays once the winner of the MMRCA Tender competition is out by Mid of next year . IAF has made a detail study of all the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) Production capability of this jets and also how fast they can get their government approval for Transfer of Core Technology to India, and also ground tools and other spare supplies of the jet to HAL, so that local production of the 108 jets can start in India, first 18 aircraft will be directly sourced from the manufacturer. Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage and Avionics and other changes to the aircraft might suffer delays, which might delay whole Production line of the jets or HAL might have issues in doing local production of this jets which might result in to slow induction in IAF fleet. IAF is already retiring more jets then inducting them and Mig-23 fleet has been already been retired and MMRCA aircraft will fill the gap of this jets, IAF will also be retiring Half of Mig-27 fleet by 2015, so this is a major concern for IAF, since this will also be the period where jets like Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 will be going through major Mid-life up gradation and pulling of this jets for up gradation will leave further void in IAF ’s operational capability. Key will be faster induction of MMRCA jets, and also take care that Sukhoi Su 30 MKI and Tejas MK-1 induction have smooth induction into IAF.Quicker Induction of jets is Key in MMRCA Tender: IAF Official

 

[luckyyy]

Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage and Avionics and other changes to the aircraft might suffer delays, which might delay whole Production line of the jets or HAL might have issues in doing local production of this jets which might result in to slow induction in IAF

does build for india jet is good for india or bad..?

Gripen is still in prototype but F-16IN is the same which are flying in UAE and MIG-35 is around for 4 years now..

 

[rockstarIN]

What about EF tr-3 then?

It is also been considered as a prototype then..

 

[sancho]

does build for india jet is good for india or bad..?

Gripen is still in prototype but F-16IN is the same which are flying in UAE and MIG-35 is around for 4 years now..

Depends, the Mig 35 has no other operators (and is not even a prototype so far, all we saw now are modified Mig 29Ks), so build for India means can integrate more Indian weapons and systems. The F16 in ready and proven for the biggest part, but apart from some avionic changes, those CFTs will be completelly new and made mainly for India, but later also available for other export countries.

What about EF tr-3 then?

It is also been considered as a prototype then..

EF is not a prototype, because it is in operational service and will be upgraded only, but if fast induction is important to IAF, it is out for sure, because the upgrade is still not decided yet and will cause delays.

So if the report is true, the chances of Rafale and the F18SH (as I expected) are the best.

 

[Archie]

Depends, the Mig 35 has no other operators (and is not even a prototype so far, all we saw now are modified Mig 29Ks), so build for India means can integrate more Indian weapons and systems. The F16 in ready and proven for the biggest part, but apart from some avionic changes, those CFTs will be completelly new and made mainly for India, but later also available for other export countries.




EF is not a prototype, because it is in operational service and will be upgraded only, but if fast induction is important to IAF, it is out for sure, because the upgrade is still not decided yet and will cause delays.

So if the report is true, the chances of Rafale and the F18SH (as I expected) are the best.

Yeah that is the right judgement , However i personally prefer Rafales
Reasons
1. Higher weapons Payload at 9500kg vs 8000kg
2. More Hardpoints at 14 vs 11
3. Lower RCS at 2 vs 5sqm
4. Capability to deliver Nuclear Weapons , could replace Mirage 2000 in that role
5. Storm Shadow Cruise Missile which could be Integrated with Rafale and Typhoon and which has a range of 250Km with a warhead of 450kg
6. Pakistan too will have same weapons for its F16 which will be used BY Super Hornet
7. US will never offer the Level Of TOT being offered by the French

Most Interesting of all Desault Has Promised to deliver 40 Aircrafts on short notice out of Fighters actually meant for french airforce by 2013 should Rafale be chosen Compared to that Boing would be Unable to deliver first aircraft before September 2014

 

[angeldemon_007]

does build for india jet is good for india or bad..?

good question....

Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage

Complete bullshit.......
Gripen NG is an advanced version of gripen which is being used by many countries. That means atleast the platform is being tested. If gripen is under testing then what about Rafale ??/ Its only used by France. This makes it one of the highest risk purchase. Even the recent accidents of Rafale should ring the alarm bell in their ears.

Its really funny, the guy is calling the oldest fighter in this competition as prototype.....really funny...Although F16IN is new but it is being used by UAE.

What about Eurofighter ??/ Which is the only fighter in the competition which doesnot have AESA. As per what i remember AESA was the requirement. Although Eurofighter is saying they will provide aesa and even thrust vectoring but anybody can tell by listening this is this would cause delay in induction.

What about F18SH ??/ I know its fully developed but its not as advanced as eurofighter and Rafale and even gripen. Check out the features. Also what about offset and TOT. US companies are fooling us time and again.
We should keep this in mind that this acquisition will help us in developing the technologies for our future fighter like LCA MKII and AMCA.
Selecting a US fighter won't help us in any way.....

My vote is for Gripen, if not then we should go for typhoon and but be ready for delays...

I won't comment on Mig35 as its true.

 

[the rafter]

good question....


Complete bullshit.......
Gripen NG is an advanced version of gripen which is being used by many countries. That means atleast the platform is being tested.

Dude, Gripen NG that was used for trials in MMRCA is a technology demonstrator, only few prototypes exist. Even Swedish air force don't have them yet. The NG is expected to enter Swedish service in 2017 or possibly earlier if export orders are received. This makes it more risky than Rafale.

 

[luckyyy]

So if the report is true, the chances of Rafale and the F18SH (as I expected) are the best.

the procces of selecting the mmrca is in final stages and not in the initial stages...
do we need to remind ourself what is the final stage.......Commertical Bidding..

therefore the chances of L1 bidder ....only winning.....

 

[angeldemon_007]

Dude, Gripen NG that was used for trials in MMRCA is a technology demonstrator,

Gripen NG was never fielded during the MMRCA trials. Other Gripen was fielded at that time which was a setback for SAAB. A lot of articles came in the media during that time. Later Gripen NG was tested and is handed over to authorities for operational clearance.
As per the report few new technologies and avionics were tested on NG making it more lethal and as per reports test was successful.

This makes it more risky than Rafale.

I said that based on all the reading i did from the Saab website and gripen IN website. According to which not enough changes are made which would delay much. But you are right, still risk is there. I got carried away because they are offering a nice deal, even the maintenance cost is less, lest cost per unit, offers good BVR range and even they have their own aesa. But there are few glitches as there are few American components which might cause problem in the deal they are offering and I think thats why MOD wanted assurances from the third party suppliers also. Also we know Gripen is somewhat similar to LCA(I just read this many places) and Gripen uses GE 414 engine. SAAB will offer us twin engine version and has even agreed to give India the right to produce Gripen and sell in global market as a separate vendor.
Even Eurofighter deal is also lucrative but they don't have aesa. Problem with Rafale is not justed less tested but also the high cost...but yeah it is truely a multi role fighter which i think eurofighter is not.

Lets see what happens but whatever happen should happen quickly as the cost of the deal is definitely going to increase when the fresh bids will be issued.

 

[the rafter]

Later Gripen NG was tested and is handed over to authorities for operational clearance.
As per the report few new technologies and avionics were tested on NG making it more lethal and as per reports test was successful.

I said that based on all the reading i did from the Saab website and gripen IN website.

You've got it wrong mate, Gripen NG was the last contender to be tested in MMRCA field trials. But its not yet ready with for serial production. There are several developments to be completed (including the development costs/incorporating the new General Electric F414G engine). Not just american parts/engine but it has several components imported from other countries (including proposed AESA radar).
There are some advantages for choosing Gripen but if you look closely its not so.
How many different fighters do you expect IAF to have (Mirage, MIGs, Sukhoi, LCA, PAK-FA, AMCA)? Imagine the demand for spares and servicing needs in the future? No country wants that nightmare (also considering the parts come several other countries). Gripen NG would have been advantageous if it was fully developed (though it is more prone to sanctions and restrictions for tech transfer, whatever SAAB might assure now).

SAAB will offer us twin engine version

I don't know where you got the above info but thats totally false, Gripen is a single engine jet.