Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sudhir007]

 

[ganimi kawa]

Latest rumour on the block. Though I'd be happy if this one is true!





MMRCA BUZZ: F-16 Out Of Reckoning?

In the midst of persistent recent rumours of frontrunners in India's medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition, an explosive new piece of buzz -- and an assertion in the latest issue of India's most widely read news magazine -- now suggest that the Lockheed-Martin F-16 is no longer in the reckoning for the $11-billion 126-fighter prize. And with the MiG-35 long out of the competition, it's now effectively a four-horse game being fought by the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Saab Gripen NG/IN.

First, the Indian Air Force has refused to comment officially on specific progress in the MMRCA competition, but an IAF officer familiar with developments at Air Force HQ has indicated to a select group of journalists, on condition of anonymity, that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence specifically agree that there is no sense in purchasing a platform that the US is already supplying to Pakistan (notwithstanding the assertion that the variant on offer to India is far more advanced). This, especially when the F-16 has come to symbolise the irritation India nurses against the stubborn rhetoric India faces from the US when it registers its disquiet at billions of dollars worth of conventional weapons being supplied hand over fist to Pakistan.

Second, and more importantly, the latest issue of INDIA TODAY (Nov 15) appears to suggest that as well. The cover story, co-authored by senior editor Sandeep Unnithan, notes, "US supplies to Pakistan have effectively nixed the F-16s prospects at being selected as one of the two US contenders for the IAF's $12-billion fighter tender for its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft."

I'm awaiting comments from Lockheed-Martin. Stay tuned. Do please note that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence have not confirmed this information. Also note that there have been several rumours in the past pertaining to specific eliminations from the lucrative MMRCA competition (Lockheed has in fact commented in the past on specific rumours), and none of them have been verified one way or the other. The competition remains in progress, with the Ministry of Defence expected to make a single type selection in or around July 2011.

 

[SpArK]

^^^
I wish the news as reported in INDIA TODAY magazine is true.

 

[SpArK]

A funny comment on the report from the site

Now every aircraft has been eliminated and selected at least once, i think the Ministry of defence should be congratulated for its decade long procurement which might just outlast the planes.

Well actually it did outlast the production lines of Mirage-2k and the relevance of F-16 block-52+.

 

[Ammyy]

Air Force MRCA Deal - Eurofighter Typhoon Ahead on Technical Parameters

2010-11-07
British newspaper The Telegraph quotes unnamed senior Indian government officials revealing that the Eurofighter Typhoon fighters lead the race to bag the USD 11 billion Indian Air Force Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) deal.

"There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead"
-- The Telegraph quoting an unnamed senior Indian official

India Defence had earlier reported in September 2010 that Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale fighters had emerged as front-runners after field trials were conducted by the Air Force.

Air Force MRCA Deal - Eurofighter Typhoon Ahead on Technical Parameters | India Defence

Wish EF select for MMRCA

 

[FSLN]

^^^WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT SU-30 MKI CAN CARRY MUCH HIGH LOAD THAN ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT.
WE WILL HAVE AROUND 275 OF THESE BIRDS.SO WE CAN CANCEL F/A-18 SUPER HORNET WHICH IS GOOD IN AIR-GROUND IN MMRCA COMPETITION AND CAN GO FOR THE FIGHTER WHICH HAS A GOOD AIR-AIR CAPABILITIES LIKE TYPHOON/RAFALE.
WHAT DO YOU SAY?

so you want to leave the A2G duties to your precious MKi? and just buy a A2A bird like Typhoon..?

Nothing beats the SuperHornet in A2G, nothing but heavy fighters like MKis or Strike Eagles..

 

[FSLN]

Wish EF select for MMRCA

Why? the MKi fits the A2A superiority duty just fine...

 

[kingdurgaking]

EF already can use older Paveways and is integrating the latets IV version, but that can't be counted as real A2G capabilities with the lack of A2G missiles. More important is the lack of an dedicated pod pylon, because these LGBs needs a targeting pod for guidance. At the moment the EF carries it at the centerline station as you can see in the following pics, which reduces the number of fuel tanks that can be carried and also the range:

So if IAF, SFC, or even IN are searching for a fighter with deep strike capabilities, the EF is obviously the wrong choice!

Now the question is does EF doesnt have Mid air refuelling capabilities??? It has so why you need more fuel tanks??

Do you have any information on the range of EFT with internal Fuel??

From the pic i can see it is carrying a decent payload of A2G bombs and A2A missile... dont you think so??

But we need to see what is Trance-3 will be presented as??? a dedicated Pylon or use an existing one?


I still feel MMRCA needs a decent ground strike and superior Air strike because we have lot of Fighters with Ground strike capabilities.... Even LCA is now a bomber only

 

[kingdurgaking]

so you want to leave the A2G duties to your precious MKi? and just buy a A2A bird like Typhoon..?

Nothing beats the SuperHornet in A2G, nothing but heavy fighters like MKis or Strike Eagles..

Are you sure??? Can Hornet carry Brahmos?? A high precision and highly tactical missile?? I guess no right?? x....but MKI can carry any weapon which Super Hornet carries ... If US Permits trust me... MKI will have every weapon in its pylon .... Trust me man Nothing is better than MKI.... Just AESA and reduced RCS it will Kick A$$ of any fighters except 5th generation with ease......

 

[sancho]

^^^WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT SU-30 MKI CAN CARRY MUCH HIGH LOAD THAN ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT.
WE WILL HAVE AROUND 275 OF THESE BIRDS.SO WE CAN CANCEL F/A-18 SUPER HORNET WHICH IS GOOD IN AIR-GROUND IN MMRCA COMPETITION AND CAN GO FOR THE FIGHTER WHICH HAS A GOOD AIR-AIR CAPABILITIES LIKE TYPHOON/RAFALE.
WHAT DO YOU SAY?

Carrying much load is one thing, but it doesn't mean it is good for any type of strikes. Preemptive strikes, or deep penetration strikes in enemy territory, will be very difficult for the MKI with its big RCS. Especially because we have very capable opponents with AWACS support, here exactly the MMRCAs should offer different atvantages for IAF, to be able to do any role that is needed. Not to forget that we will get an A2A fighter fighter before the next deacade, that will be way more capable than any MMRCA anyway.
F16IN would have been a good choice if PAF wouldn't use it for years and wouldn't have all the US restrictions, just like the SH will have. Which leaves us with the Rafale which is the closest in A2G to the SH and in some regards even superior.

 

[FSLN]

.
F16IN would have been a good choice if PAF wouldn't use it for years and wouldn't have all the US restrictions, just like the SH will have. Which leaves us with the Rafale which is the closest in A2G to the SH and in some regards even superior.

I agree, it would be so cool if you guys could home build the Rafale, ala MKi...

 

[sancho]

Now the question is does EF doesnt have Mid air refuelling capabilities??? It has so why you need more fuel tanks??
Do you have any information on the range of EFT with internal Fuel??

Of course the EF has that capability, but that doesn't mean the fighter needs no fuel tanks. Even in A2A CAP most fighters carry at least 1 drop tank to have enough range and endurance. In A2G missions, where the additional weight will reduce the range even more, drop tanks are very important, because air refuelling is only possible in Indian airspace right? So in a deep strike mission, the minute the fighters cross border, their range is dependent on the internal and external fuel capacity only.

From the pic i can see it is carrying a decent payload of A2G bombs and A2A missile... dont you think so??

It carries 4 x 500Kg LGB = 2000Kg strike load, a TP and 2 fuel tanks (A2A missiles are not important here, because we were talking about strike loads and range), but even the small Gripen NG, or E/F will carry the same with the same number of fuel tanks, but to a longer distances.

The TP is not integrated here, but the older Gripen has a dedicated pod station under the air intake, 2 x fuel tanks and 2 x 1000Kg LGBs:

But we need to see what is Trance-3 will be presented as??? a dedicated Pylon or use an existing one?

That is the crucial point! We are about to shortlist the final contenders and the EF partners still did not decide what weapons, or capabilities the T3 will really have and when they will be available. So for now we can take only those things for granted, that are, or will be integrated soon, or at least are decided.
Using the TP from a wing station will of course reduce one weapon again.

I still feel MMRCA needs a decent ground strike and superior Air strike because we have lot of Fighters with Ground strike capabilities.... Even LCA is now a bomber only

Where does IAF have a lot of ground strike capabilities? Mig 27 will be phased out soon and only Jags will remain as real strike fighters. The others are air superiority fighters with added A2G capabilities only and LCA a bomber?
Look at the weapon config of the NG again, reduce 1 bomb, internal fuel as well as range and you have the strike load/capability of an LCA.

I agree, it would be so cool if you guys could home build the Rafale, ala MKi...

Hope so too!

 

[ganimi kawa]

^^ EFT does have a deficit of 1100kg fuel while carrying the litening 3 pod for A2G missions.

Tranche 3A was supposed to incorporate conformal fuel tanks to tackle this problem. Don't know their current status, though.

 

[CONNAN]

MMRCA BUZZ: F-16 Out Of Reckoning? [UPDATED]

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: MMRCA BUZZ: F-16 Out Of Reckoning? [UPDATED]

In the midst of persistent recent rumours of frontrunners in India's medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition, an explosive new piece of buzz -- and an assertion in the latest issue of India's most widely read news magazine -- now suggest that the Lockheed-Martin F-16 is no longer in the reckoning for the Indian $12-billion 126-fighter prize. And with the MiG-35 long out of the competition, it's now effectively a four-horse game being fought between the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Saab Gripen NG/IN.

Two points: First, the Indian Air Force has refused to comment officially on specific progress in the MMRCA competition, but an IAF officer familiar with developments at Air Force HQ has indicated to a select group of journalists, on condition of anonymity, that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence specifically agree that there is no sense in purchasing a platform that the US is already supplying to Pakistan (notwithstanding the assertion that the variant on offer to India is far more advanced). This, especially when the F-16 has come to symbolise the irritation India nurses against the stubborn rhetoric South Block faces from the US when it registers its disquiet at billions of dollars worth of conventional weapons being supplied hand over fist to Pakistan supposedly for the war against terror.

Second, and more importantly, the latest issue of INDIA TODAY magazine (Nov 15) suggests that pretty unambiguously as well. The cover story, co-authored by senior editor Sandeep Unnithan, notes, "US supplies to Pakistan have effectively nixed the F-16's prospects at being selected as one of the two US contenders for the IAF's $12-billion fighter tender for its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft."

I'm awaiting comments from Lockheed-Martin. Stay tuned. Do please note that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence have not confirmed this information. Also note that there have been several rumours in the past pertaining to specific eliminations from the lucrative MMRCA competition (Lockheed has, in fact, commented in the past on specific rumours), and none of them have been confirmed one way or the other. The competition remains ongoing, with the Ministry of Defence expected to make a single type selection in or around July 2011.

[UPDATE @10.47AM / 9 NOV] Lockeed-Martin has responded to the assertion in the INDIA TODAY cover story (see above). Here it is in full: "President Obama has expressed India’s and the US’s shared interest in a stable Pakistan, free of terrorist enclaves. We have heard nothing that would suggest the Indian government would eliminate either US competitor from the competition because of US engagement with Pakistan. On the contrary, we are very confident, based on the results of the Field Evaluation Trials, that the F-16IN Super Viper is fully compliant with India’s requirements. The F-16IN incorporates capabilities based upon lessons learned from combat and was the only MMRCA competitor to demonstrate an operational Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in India, the core of the weapon system. This will be the finest F-16 ever built."

 

[kingdurgaking]

Of course the EF has that capability, but that doesn't mean the fighter needs no fuel tanks. Even in A2A CAP most fighters carry at least 1 drop tank to have enough range and endurance. In A2G missions, where the additional weight will reduce the range even more, drop tanks are very important, because air refuelling is only possible in Indian airspace right? So in a deep strike mission, the minute the fighters cross border, their range is dependent on the internal and external fuel capacity only.

But sirjee if we need external tanks the purpose of mid air refuelling is defeated because behind enemy lines i dont think any fighter will carry external fuel tanks but will depend on internal fuel for mission because those tank will impact the fighter's performance... Secondly For deep strike we will not use medium fighters but heavy fighters like MKI which will finish the mission with ease...

Medium fighters will be used for Air superiority as the primary role with secondry bombing mission...

It carries 4 x 500Kg LGB = 2000Kg strike load, a TP and 2 fuel tanks (A2A missiles are not important here, because we were talking about strike loads and range), but even the small Gripen NG, or E/F will carry the same with the same number of fuel tanks, but to a longer distances.

The TP is not integrated here, but the older Gripen has a dedicated pod station under the air intake, 2 x fuel tanks and 2 x 1000Kg LGBs:

But sirjee based on image we cant assume EFT can carry only 500 kg LGB right?.. It has higher thrust and it can for sure carry 1000kg LGB also what say?? In addition it has take off weight greater than NG .... and there is a report which is stating that RAF is working on Conformal fuel tanks which will be part of Tranche 3 specs... means a good deal....

Where does IAF have a lot of ground strike capabilities? Mig 27 will be phased out soon and only Jags will remain as real strike fighters. The others are air superiority fighters with added A2G capabilities only and LCA a bomber?
Look at the weapon config of the NG again, reduce 1 bomb, internal fuel as well as range and you have the strike load/capability of an LCA.

Sirjee every fighter in IAF has ground striking capability ... especially MKI which is being optimized now to carry Brahmos... I have Pics and config where MKI carries heavy Bombs and its a true swing role fighter... Come to Mirage it has proved its capability to strike Grounds.. LCA is tested to drop Precision bombs so far and it is now converted to a pure Multi role...

and we have Mig 29 which was the only Air superiority.. with SMT upgrade it too can drop bombs ....

So primary Air superiority we have are Mig 29, MMRCA and Future FGFA... We need this big squadron of Air superiority to counter poth PLAAF and PAF.. while we have sufficient Bombers in form of An32, MKI and LCA and Future AMCA .... while LCA will act as interceptor too while others can still supplement Air support