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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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What IAF is banking is, that handing over list of three Top performing Jets only , Now if they select Rafale , Eurofighter , F18 as top performing jets which wont be a surprise considering they are best of the lot.
It dosen't leave MoD much of the choice to decide by their "Cheap is best theory" so this price theory is out . IAF will pick only three fighters of six which meet or exceed their req.
Mate you pointed out two different things in one here! The one is price and cost-effectiveness and here the Gripen as a single engine of course has clear advantages. That's why I still believe it will enter the final stage, like I always said as the cost-effective solution (F18SH as the political option and the Rafale as the best overall option).

The seconed point you mentioned is performance, but high cost doens't mean good performance! Be it in the competitions in Singapore, or now in Brazil, the EF didn't enter the final stage although it is widely known as the best 4+ air superiority fighter. This hints, that its performance in the A2G role was that limited, that it wasn't good enough to compete the other fighters and not worth the high costs.
If really only 3 contenders will make it to the final stage, it would be a big surprise to me if the EF would one of them, because I doubt that good, or comparable multi role capabilities will be available with that fighter soon.

If your infos are correct and money isn't the issue, the Rafale must win hands down, because the costs are its biggest disadvantage. It is known that IAF love and wanted more Mirage 2000, but instead of fighters like F16IN, Mig 35, F18SH, or even the Gripen NG, the Rafale is not a simple upgrade, its a improved new fighter. Not to mention full ToT, source codes, sanction prove...

When you talk of advantage this Supercruise + short take off + hot refueling + Fast Data links +Low operational cost are some of the things that might just give advantage to a jet , and IAF would definately have a good look at that.
No doubt that IAF will be interested, but mainly based on the cost-effectiveness, not based on pure performance. Just Yash said it quit good,
Gripen is like Swiss knife. Can do so many Work but can't do any of them vary well
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It has the same delta-canard design, can also supercruise, will use the same swashplate AESA and the Meteor missile, just like the EF, but would anybody really say it will have the same A2A performance?
The NG version has more payload, internal fuel and weapon stations, but will anybody really say it will have the same A2G performance as the Rafale?
The Sea Gripen might be a cost-effective carrier fighter, but will be so limited in payload that it won't be comparable to Rafale, F18SH, or Mig 29K.

As far as Meteor is concerned when IAF visited Sweden , Gripen team showed them Live Meteor firing as was reported by Vishnu som .
Not sure abt Rafale doing that same ,
Might wanna look at some recent Janes's article report - available on blog...
That's pretty much what I said before, MBDA started the development Saab only joint the project and it is done in phases. First flight test on EF, first flight tests from carriers from Rafale, first test fired from Gripen, these are test in the development of the missile, not weapon integration of for a fighter!
The Meteor missile development is expected to be done by 2013 and then could be available for all 3 fighters then, but the key here is, that the EF and the Gripen itself are only under development now. So the missile might be ready then, but the fighter may not. EF tranche 3 with mature AESA, Meteor and all other still not decided capabilities is expected only by 2015 or later. Not sure when the Gripen NG will go to serial production, still only a prototype is ready yet. Rafale F3 instead, with fully multi role performance and AESA radar will be inducted in French forces by next year, so do you really think Rafale will get Meteor at last?

This also brings about BVR missile into question . All others have either Aim120 or R77 as BVR but Mica is still short legged on rafale when our adversary are firing AIM120 / PL12- SD10 / SD13 / R77
In short, I expect Meteor, or maybe even Astra to be used from IAF Rafale instead of MICA EM and besides that, our adversary must detect the fighter first to have a range advantage right?

And on to choice of MRCA - I think MRCA wiil also give an indication of role of su30 in IAF , if a jet like F18 or rafale is chosen ,i thnk it will retain its status of out and out air-superiority fighter.
But my guess is seeing integration of Brahmos+Nirbhay on MKI we could very well see a multi-role jet with more of air-sup asset and superior flight performance giving escort to mki in war .
Something like Eurofighter ,Mig35 , Gripen fit that role perfectly.
That's the same point that I have for Rafale too, the difference is only, that you think Gripen is a good match alongside of MKI only, but I say Rafale is the best match between MKI and LCA.
LCA MK2 and Gripen NG could be very similar in design, capabilities and especially roles like interception, close air support, or later maritime patrol. The MKI instead will remain the main air superiority fighter till FGFA arrives and will be used for heavy ground attacks with the cruise missiles that you mentioned, or heavy bomb loads (up to 3 KAB 1500!). So what IAF really needs is a fighter in between, that is useful for both air defense and strikes missions where LCAs and MKIs aren't usefull. For example SEAD, deep penetration, low level strikes.

And Sancho regarding that Rafale vs F22 ,...
Not sure about the Gripen vs Su35, but the other exercises was live simulations and the Rafale performed more than well against 2 of the best air superiorty fighters (EF and F22), which nobody had expected before. It didn't won against the F22, but was shot down only once, which is very impressiv too. Till that day everybody only hailed the EF as a fighter with some chances against it, but this shows that the Rafale is very close in A2A performance too, at least in WVR.
 
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Not surprised to see higher operating cost of Twin engined fighters but Rafale having highest is a bit surprising .
Marketing its Rafale jet Dassault always pointed out low operating cost by your post looks oppposite.
F18 must admit is very good at 10,000 considering its a naval fighter and requires much more operation .
Would be nice if we have operational cost of su30,Mig29 and Mirage2000 for comparison.

@ Sudhir - BTW any source or link for your data ????????

These costs include the cost of weapons and the fighters that mainly use US weapons have obviously cheaper costs than the Rafale that only uses French, or European weapons. The maintenance is said to be at Mirage 2000 level, MICA, AASM, Exocet and later of course Meteor won't be that cheap.
For India the numbers will differ anyway, depending on which weapons we will use. MICA, or maybe Python V / Astra (my favourite combo for short and medium range. If we integrate Kaveri engine, or use other indigenous techs and weapons. But Rafale and EF will be the overall costliest for sure.
 
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the thing is that we needed MRCA as a stop gap measure till the arrival of FGFA but now this has become so huge that any prediction just does not make sense...

As a stop gap Gripen is the best choice considering its cost effectiveness and TOT..plus i think its similarity with LCA Mk-2 will only be advantageous since the similarity in design and TOT will help the somehow lazy designers in HAL/NAL to use the available technology from GRIPEN to bring the MK-2 version in less time..

Coming to RAFALE , no doubt this is the best Multi-role fighter available in the fray..being a little underpowered will not be that much of an issue in next upgrade imo..BUT this is damn expensive to procure and operate.. i wonder what babus in finance ministry will do about it...
 
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These costs include the cost of weapons and the fighters that mainly use US weapons have obviously cheaper costs than the Rafale that only uses French, or European weapons. The maintenance is said to be at Mirage 2000 level, MICA, AASM, Exocet and later of course Meteor won't be that cheap.
For India the numbers will differ anyway, depending on which weapons we will use. MICA, or maybe Python V / Astra (my favourite combo for short and medium range. If we integrate Kaveri engine, or use other indigenous techs and weapons. But Rafale and EF will be the overall costliest for sure.

These missiles can be integrated in any plane...plus ASTRA will take some time to mature, wont it..?
 
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the thing is that we needed MRCA as a stop gap measure till the arrival of FGFA but now this has become so huge that any prediction just does not make sense...

As a stop gap Gripen is the best choice considering its cost effectiveness and TOT..plus i think its similarity with LCA Mk-2 will only be advantageous since the similarity in design and TOT will help the somehow lazy designers in HAL/NAL to use the available technology from GRIPEN to bring the MK-2 version in less time..

Even if FGFA arrives, MMRCA will still be a frontline fighter in IAF for nearly 2 more decades and FGFA will not be useful for all roles too, so don't think about MMRCA just as a stop gap. It might be in numbers, because LCA delays, but for sure not regarding capabilities.

Secondly, Sweden and the Gripen are just as dependent on foreign countries and parts like India and LCA, because the main parts (radar and engine) will mainly be foreign. The only parts that they really developed alone, or at least co-developed are mainly avionics and there we have better options from Israel (Mayavi EWS, Litening pod, HMS...).

If LCA MK2 should gain from MMRCA, the best would be to chose EF, Rafale, or the Mig. They can offer full ToT, or same techs and weapons for LCA too, so the highest ammount of commonality.

These missiles can be integrated in any plane...plus ASTRA will take some time to mature, wont it..?

If the vendor allows it and we pay for the integration of course. I guess so, but MMRCA will only be inducted in 4 years, should be enough time to mature the missile, even with normal Indian delays. :)
 
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These missiles can be integrated in any plane...plus ASTRA will take some time to mature, wont it..?

It will not take more then 5 years, and in future we are going to develop more and more indigenous missiles.

to integrate any missile or cruse missile we required complete source code of radar so we can establish connection between missile and radar Right....

Now let's how ,many will provide that

1) Mig 35 (But we are all ready using mig 29 and we will upgrade it up to the mig 35 level in future so we dont need mig 35 )

2) Gripen( No, more then 40 % components are from out side)

3) f-16 & 18 (Complete source code of USA radar:woot:.... forget about it)

4) EF ( AESA radar will be installed in 2015 and then after long talk reading source code and then new deal and.... stop it yaar i am already feeling old)

5) Rafael ------ oh yes it can........

so out of 6 fighter only 2 are will provide complete tot IN TIME and out of them only one will provide us NEW TECHNOLOGY......


and don't forget we will also going to use our new missile NIRBHAI from air, which will give our fighter 1000 KM long PUNCHING RANGE:woot:

so just don't waste time buy RAFAEL :smokin:
 
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It will not take more then 5 years, and in future we are going to develop more and more indigenous missiles.

to integrate any missile or cruse missile we required complete source code of radar so we can establish connection between missile and radar Right....

Now let's how ,many will provide that

1) Mig 35 (But we are all ready using mig 29 and we will upgrade it up to the mig 35 level in future so we dont need mig 35 )

2) Gripen( No, more then 40 % components are from out side)

3) f-16 & 18 (Complete source code of USA radar:woot:.... forget about it)

4) EF ( AESA radar will be installed in 2015 and then after long talk reading source code and then new deal and.... stop it yaar i am already feeling old)

5) Rafael ------ oh yes it can........

so out of 6 fighter only 2 are will provide complete tot IN TIME and out of them only one will provide us NEW TECHNOLOGY......


and don't forget we will also going to use our new missile NIRBHAI from air, which will give our fighter 1000 KM long PUNCHING RANGE:woot:

so just don't waste time buy RAFAEL :smokin:

There is no doubt that Rafael looks better from other contenders but one of the problem is underpowered engine & secondly its higher cost. Because 10-12 Billion dollor value is for AC cost along with full service life cost + ToT + some armaments. Here its chances start decreasing , you see how much they cost Brazil only for 36 ACs. If MoD & MoF can increase budget for this purchase then only this look feasible. And in my way go for M-88ECO engine which will be ready this yearend or next year and few more changes which UAE is negotiating. Then it will be a deadly machine and will be able to take on any current fighter in our neighbourhood.
 
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There is a speculation from another forum where people are saying the budget has been increased to around 30 billion $ by the MOD and total number of AC to 200 :). also with the current budget I dont think we can buy any other ac apart from mig and ng
Tx
 
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There is a speculation from another forum where people are saying the budget has been increased to around 30 billion $ by the MOD and total number of AC to 200 :). also with the current budget I dont think we can buy any other ac apart from mig and ng
Tx

r u serious dude?????:what::what:
 
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I dont think so.. this seems more of a reaction to the news articles going around whether MRCA is now even needed..
 
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F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S

jet_115942f.jpg


As the race for the IAF bid to procure 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft enters the home stretch, the United States Navy vouched for the versatility of the F/A-18 Super Hornet, one of the six aircraft in competition, with features closer to a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force is scheduled to complete flight evaluation trials during the month with the last of the six competitors. The Super Hornet from the Boeing stable has gone through all three phases of trial across different weather conditions in India and weapons at the manufacturers' locations.

The Naval Air Station, Oceana here in the U.S. southeast coast, has under its wing 17 operating squadrons of these fighter jets including 10 Super Hornet squadrons that fly from both the land base and the aircraft carrier.

Emphasising that F/A18 would continue to be the U.S. Navy's workhorse even after the induction of the futuristic F-35, Cmdr Mike Gusko said the new version would complement the existing fleet of Super Hornets, which would continue to serve well beyond 2035.

He said the aircraft could operate from dry, wet and icy runways, an ability fitting in with the overall requirements of the IAF.

The Block-II aircraft (Super Hornet) comes with ability to operate in all-weather providing air defence superiority, precision attack, close-air support, and an advanced radar for weapons system.

Apart from combat manoeuvrability and unlimited angle of attack, which its test pilots demonstrated to the visiting group, it had the active electronically scanned array radar (AESA), the Navy official said. The AESA radar is being upgraded and the version would be on offer.

The Commanding Officer of the Center for Aviation Technical Training Unit, Cdr John Wood, said the NAS, Oceana facility also had both maintenance and training establishment, with the latter running courses for fresh recruits to advanced level staff of varying durations.

The simulator-assisted training establishment brings the technicians closest to understanding the intricate wiring pattern and design, breaking it into segments and guiding them through electronic and printed manuals.

Bret Marks, programme manager for F/A 18 India, said the IAF would get two of the training units in India as part of the deal with the option of buying a third one and an offer to train trainers here. Of the 126 aircraft, the IAF is looking for 80 single-seaters and the rest with tandem operated cockpit. Boeing offers F/A-18 E in the first category and F/A-18 F in the other.

The Hindu : News / National : F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S
 
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i donno why but i have this feeling that SH is more suitable for carrier borne operations than air force ones..
 
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F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S

The Hindu : News / National : F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S



As the race for the IAF bid to procure 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft enters the home stretch, the United States Navy vouched for the versatility of the F/A-18 Super Hornet, one of the six aircraft in competition, with features closer to a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force is scheduled to complete flight evaluation trials during the month with the last of the six competitors. The Super Hornet from the Boeing stable has gone through all three phases of trial across different weather conditions in India and weapons at the manufacturers' locations.

The Naval Air Station, Oceana here in the U.S. southeast coast, has under its wing 17 operating squadrons of these fighter jets including 10 Super Hornet squadrons that fly from both the land base and the aircraft carrier.

Emphasising that F/A18 would continue to be the U.S. Navy's workhorse even after the induction of the futuristic F-35, Cmdr Mike Gusko said the new version would complement the existing fleet of Super Hornets, which would continue to serve well beyond 2035.

He said the aircraft could operate from dry, wet and icy runways, an ability fitting in with the overall requirements of the IAF.

The Block-II aircraft (Super Hornet) comes with ability to operate in all-weather providing air defence superiority, precision attack, close-air support, and an advanced radar for weapons system.

Apart from combat manoeuvrability and unlimited angle of attack, which its test pilots demonstrated to the visiting group, it had the active electronically scanned array radar (AESA), the Navy official said. The AESA radar is being upgraded and the version would be on offer.

The Commanding Officer of the Center for Aviation Technical Training Unit, Cdr John Wood, said the NAS, Oceana facility also had both maintenance and training establishment, with the latter running courses for fresh recruits to advanced level staff of varying durations.

The simulator-assisted training establishment brings the technicians closest to understanding the intricate wiring pattern and design, breaking it into segments and guiding them through electronic and printed manuals.

Bret Marks, programme manager for F/A 18 India, said the IAF would get two of the training units in India as part of the deal with the option of buying a third one and an offer to train trainers here. Of the 126 aircraft, the IAF is looking for 80 single-seaters and the rest with tandem operated cockpit. Boeing offers F/A-18 E in the first category and F/A-18 F in the other.
 
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