Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

Good, I think localisation is the key, it will have multiplier effects in other manufacturing industries in India and as you said before - this will help us with our projects over time.

So if I roughly calculate:

If we are ordering around 300 just for IAF,

300 - (90 for first tranche) - (36 from France) = 174.

So around 150 to 170 jets from later batches will have a good amount of localization... (Would you agree, or am I just being an idiot, or is it too hard to tell for the time being?)

Anyway, I am quite happy with around half of the jets being screwed together and half being made in India - that's a damn good deal considering all the other tech that will come along with it!

as of now what i know is there are planned 5 tranches for an amount greater than 300 jets . This includes for both the forces - IAF and IN.

IN wants 100+ Rafale Ms. I was sure about the Catobar part but recently a professional in another forum suggested that IN wants Rafale for STOBAR IAC1 too.. As of now i know for sure air wing for IAC 1 which i think will be inducted by Dec06, 2019 is not yet ordered. Nor Rafale had done any testing in STBF INS Hansa. But if such a case arises, the IAC1 wing of 42-45 Rafales will also be ordered from Merignac.

So its a bit difficult to actually spell out how many may be in Merignac but roughly it should be 83-99 (36+18+45 or 36+18+27). That roughly leaves around 200+ in MII line out of which tranche 1 will be 90. Originally i heard a ratio of 1:3 thats is 1 plane in Merignac and 3 planes in MII line so if that happens then the numbers would increase further.

Yes by the middle of first tranche we should see gradual reduction in the screw driver philosophy and by the end of 90, a good 50% part would be localised. But point to note is that economic value of this localised parts will not be very high. that part will come over time..

 

[zebra7]

So are we getting any full or even partial codes to help us on this front, from this rafale deal? (Bear with me, im no CompSci guy, so I am a bit dim when it comes to these things......

With Rafale, why do we need any codes ??

For the Integration of the Indiginously Astra BVRAAM, you don't need the whole code of the Radar, rather the library module for communicating with the Weapon Control system, and Mission Computer.

 

[ManOnWall]

With Rafale, why do we need any codes ??

For the Integration of the Indiginously Astra BVRAAM, you don't need the whole code of the Radar, rather the library module for communicating with the Weapon Control system, and Mission Computer.

Well, what I meant was - I thought with this whole rafale deal, we will get additional help - in the form of tech for our IACs, nuclear subs, so on and so forth. Hence what I was saying was, are we getting help with the aforementioned algos we needed for improved missile performance.

i.e help not just to do with astra, but other projects as well...

 

[zebra7]

Well, what I meant was - I thought with this whole rafale deal, we will get additional help - in the form of tech for our IACs, nuclear subs, so on and so forth. Hence what I was saying was, are we getting help with the aforementioned algos we needed for improved missile performance.

i.e help not just to do with astra, but other projects as well...

Here is the answer for you query in the form of Hints.

1. UAE signed Rafale and Scorpean Submarine Deal
2. India needs HEU based nuclear Reactors tech for the Carrier, and Subs, Russian tech is LEU reactors.
3. India have Stealth UVA program called AURA, and France have nUERON. This is required along with the 5th Gen Bird against the enemy who too got the 5th Gen Stealth Fighter plane. And M88 engine can be the safe bet till Kaveri gets mature, and various avionics, and sensors.
4. Rafale is 5th Generation Capable combat Plane.
5. Rafale build in India under Make In India, with Pvt Company for the International Market, at lower cost, with Indian Companies competiting for the supply of various Subsystems.
6. India investing in the Future upgrades, and MRO facilities for the International Market.

 

[Bali78]

Can't believe indian members r talking like unrealistic fanboys in this thread. Common people we r paying freaking 11 billion euros for just 36 planes. If we want to induct 126 rafales as per intial mrca tenders we will require 35 billion euros. Do you know parrikar already announced our budget for next 10 year capital expenditure for iaf is only $30 billion. Please don't pull out some unrealistic figures like 300 or 400 rafales and dont embrass indians

Where exactly did you get that figure of 11 billion? Nobody claimed 300 planes are going to come in 10 years . It will take at least 15 years and by that time Indian economy will be at least 7-8 trillion.

 

[sathya]

Can't believe indian members r talking like unrealistic fanboys in this thread. Common people we r paying freaking 11 billion euros for just 36 planes. If we want to induct 126 rafales as per intial mrca tenders we will require 35 billion euros. Do you know parrikar already announced our budget for next 10 year capital expenditure for iaf is only $30 billion. Please don't pull out some unrealistic figures like 300 or 400 rafales and dont embrass indians

It's 7.8 billion € for everything, refer to parikrama break up of costs.
Yep it's sad, we have to give away so much of money, that could have been spent for people s welfare .

Security is also an important aspect that's needed to be looked after..
It's better we are getting help in AMCA. , subs.. That will reduce our future expenditure ..

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Sir we r going to compromise on some specs for the above quoted prices . Initially iaf said they rejected russian offers because they r heavy, expensive we need aircraft which wil be inexpensive multirole . Then why they select exorbitant price rafale for mrca aircraft

You have to take care of the flying hour cost. For exemple you need 32 hours of maintenance for each flying hour on SU-30 MKI against 8 hours of maintenance for Rafale.

 

[Carlosa]

No they have settled all LAND border disputes except India

The disputes with Japan ; Philipines and Vietnam is over ISLANDS in the South China sea

They are called maritime disputes

I think they still have a land dispute with Bhutan.

 

[sathya]

Sir we r going to compromise on some specs for the above quoted prices . Initially iaf said they rejected russian offers because they r heavy, expensive we need aircraft which wil be inexpensive multirole . Then why they select exorbitant price rafale for mrca aircraft

China is bulling around , with enormous strength ..
We need to be ready .
Think over about the best solution.
We chose Rafale since it was the best possible solution.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We have to spend our resources wisely to mainyain minimum deterrance against china. French r bleeding us by dollars. They charged us frigging $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade. We r paying almost $1 billion per submarine which didn't have aip. Now you want we shel out some $13 billion for 36 jets

Firstly $13BN is sheer nonsense my friend, the final price as been agreed upon and it is >$4BN cheaper than what you are saying. Secondly, I don't understand this part about resource allocation, I hope you are aware that there isn't a special provision for the Rafale buy, it is just like any other defence deal and will be serviced out of the GoI's defence budget and thus this deal has no detrimental effect for any public expenditure, because of the Rafale purchase no children will go hungry, no roads will fail to be built. If it hadn't been 126+ Rafales this money was spent on it would have been some naval ships or some artillery guns or some submarines etc etc. Defence spending is defence spending and considering India is allocating the least it has for 50+ years on defence (as a proportion of GDP at just 1.65%) there is no major controversy here.

It's 7.8 billion € for everything, refer to parikrama break up of costs.
Yep it's sad, we have to give away so much of money, that could have been spent for people s welfare .

Security is also an important aspect that's needed to be looked after..
It's better we are getting help in AMCA. , subs.. That will reduce our future expenditure ..

"Sad"? I guess but, as I have said above the purchase is within the allocated defence budget 50% of this deal alone will go into offsets and the MII element will see even heavier investment into India. This is how a nation prospers and economies grow- no amount of welfare spending can do that. Yes it's important to support the most vulnerable in a society and the best way to do that is with capacity building them and skilling them not merely handing out welfare checks (see our failed system in the UK) ie teach a man to fish and so on.

IMHO the Rafale deals will pay for themselves in the long term and are making another step up for Indians domestic industry that will pay dividends in the future.

 

[AugenBlick]

Firstly $13BN is sheer nonsense my friend, the final price as been agreed upon and it is >$4BN cheaper than what you are saying. Secondly, I don't understand this part about resource allocation, I hope you are aware that there isn't a special provision for the Rafale buy, it is just like any other defence deal and will be serviced out of the GoI's defence budget and thus this deal has no detrimental effect for any public expenditure, because of the Rafale purchase no children will go hungry, no roads will fail to be built. If it hadn't been 126+ Rafales this money was spent on it would have been some naval ships or some artillery guns or some submarines etc etc. Defence spending is defence spending and considering India is allocating the least it has for 50+ years on defence (as a proportion of GDP at just 1.65%) there is no major controversy here.



"Sad"? I guess but, as I have said above the purchase is within the allocated defence budget 50% of this deal alone will go into offsets and the MII element will see even heavier investment into India. This is how a nation prospers and economies grow- no amount of welfare spending can do that. Yes it's important to support the most vulnerable in a society and the best way to do that is with capacity building them and skilling them not merely handing out welfare checks (see our failed system in the UK) ie teach a man to fish and so on.

IMHO the Rafale deals will pay for themselves in the long term and are making another step up for Indians domestic industry that will pay dividends in the future.

What is this new rumor that Rafael specs are downgraded. It would be political suicide if the specs do not meet the jet that was evaluated by the IAF, still prestitutes are going non stop.

 

[Abingdonboy]

What is this new rumor that Rafael specs are downgraded. It would be political suicide if the specs do not meet the jet that was evaluated by the IAF, still prestitutes are going non stop.

Haha, the anti-Rafale is nothing if not creative. At every turn the Rafale has faced complete fabrications and slander, it started almost as soon as the MMRCA began when certain losers were making out the Rafale had been rejected at the technical evaluation stage (a few months into the MMRCA) which was ENTIRELY contrary to the actual MMRCA selection process (but logic be damned right?). Then they tried to trip up the Rafale deal once it became L1- utter lies about the French side refusing this and that (ToT, workshare, offset obligations you name it they had tried it) and now the Rafale deal has reached its conclusion they are still at it. The Rafale was the favourite from day one and its competitors had appreciated this and tried their best to kill it so as to make their inferior products shine.

 

[#hydra#]

China is bulling around , with enormous strength ..
We need to be ready .
Think over about the best solution.
We chose Rafale since it was the best possible solution.

Nope,that is su34. Only su34 have enough range to take off from indian air base and do bombing missiin over china by flying over Tibet. Rafale may be a wonderfull ac with hightech electronics but it lacks the range factor to perform offensive mission on mainland china,Yeas it is good option to deal with Chinese outpist in tibets and possible future plaaf aircraft crossinng lac nd border.

 

[sathya]

We have to spend our resources wisely to mainyain minimum deterrance against china. French r bleeding us by dollars. They charged us frigging $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade. We r paying almost $1 billion per submarine which didn't have aip. Now you want we shel out some $13 billion for 36 jets

Mirage UPG, scorpene - congress efficiency
Rafale - BJP

It's not France who is bleeding us, it's us who is trading .

@Abingdonboy
I can't even imagine how much of money needed to develop this country.
Even for a single state like Tamil Nadu, 100 billion $ won't be enough just to improve the governance alone.
We need time, enormous planning, execution to improve society As a whole .

 

[Stephen Cohen]

What is this new rumor that Rafael specs are downgraded. It would be political suicide if the specs do not meet the jet that was evaluated by the IAF, still prestitutes are going non stop.

These idiots should check the Specs of The Upgraded Mig 29 and Mirage 2000

The Mirage 2000 Upgrade even contains an element of Rafale ie MDPU
ie Modular Data Processing Unit

IAF is obsessed with specs ; that is why they have been firm about Rafale
all this while