Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[sancho]

Some sane input there, but MMRCA ToT was also going to be Assembling etc......perhaps 100 percent in more non-critical areas, like CFRP panels, pipes, hoses, harness etc. You think French would simply handover the blueprints for the Turbine blades? Or the process nodes for the FSO optoelectronics?

No it wasn't at least for a lot of credible stuff. The IRST for example is not in production anymore, but was a requirement of IAF, so Thales has to divert the full ToT to Samtel, to produce it in India, not just assemble kits of parts produced abroad. Similar was stated for AESA radar or a credible ammount of the engine and that's what makes the tender so important, not only the number of fighters, but the level of industrial imput India could get. That's also the reason why US ToT was not competetive with the European proposals, or why US always struggle in Indian deals, to even comply to offsets, let alone ToT. India today is in the situation to demand much more than they could in the past, we are just too stupid to use that to our advantage!

 

[janon]

Isn't it? Why do you think TATA is so fast in producing Sikorsky helicopter parts? Because of proper transfer on know how! Why is was bharat forge suddenly capable of building howitzers? Because they took over a foreign company including their know how. Why are we dependent on the Israelis for A2G modes of a 4th gen puls doppler radar? Because we lack the know how! Why do we struggle with developing a subsonic cruise missile, when we jointly develop of Russia for super and even hypersonic cruise missiles? Because we lack the know how! Why did the Chinese needed so much help from the Ukraine to get their carrier running and navalise their fighters? Because they lacked the know how!

Well your own rhetorical questions can actually validate my point. Why are we struggling on a subsonic cruise missile, despite codeveloping a world class Brahmos? How did the know-how help? Why are we struggling to make a radar for a 4th gen aircraft, despite all the foreign aircrafts we have manufactured, including the sophisticated MKIs with ToT? Why did Bharat Forge need to acquire the company itself, rather than pay and buy "ToT"? If I buy the entire Boeing company tomorrow, I will be producing Super Hornets - not because I became a lot more knowledgeable, but because I bought the frigging company. Tata producing helicopter "parts" is in no way comparable to making an entire modern fighter jt. The difference in complexity is incomparable.

It is true that we lack the know-how in many areas - nobody is disputing that. The only point of contention is whether this uber expensive "ToT" will enable us to become on par with the entity we are purchasing the said ToT from. You can purchase the blueprints for Rafale, you can learn how to build the radar - but what you cannot do is learn how they learnt it in the first place. What was going through the minds of the designers when they were designing the airframe? What challenges did they face, and how were they overcome? How was the composition of the composite material determined? How was it determined that a particular metal piece had to be tempered at a particular temperature? You can learn what temperature to forge it at, but not how that knowledge was gained. You cannot purchase or download the experience and brains of all the scientists and engineers who worked on it, including their memories.

How do you think we navalized a fighter sooner than China did? Because we decided to do it, a long time back. If we were purchasing F-18s or Rafale-Ms at exhorbitant prices for ToT so that we could learn to navalize the Tejas, the Tejas would not have a naval version toda. Only by doing it ourselves were we ble to do it at all. Same for China - they did not simply pay for some ToT to Ukraine and magically get naval flankers - they did it themselves.

By paying 8 billion dollars for Rafale's ToT, we are not going to be able to make a world beating new aircraft in future. We can only do that by saving that 8 billion and doing all the research ourselves. There are no shortcuts in learning, money cannot make you smart. Just one or two billions into the LCA program and another 6 billion into a future program would make us a competent aerospace power in future. Spending that much money on the Rafale will not.

So buy the Rafales, or assemble them here from knock down kits, and save all the money spent for "ToT" to make our own aviation industry at home. BTW that's what China did as well - they didn't simply throw cash at Russia or Ukraine and get to the position they are at today - throughout the 80s and 90s they churned out mediocre quality fighters by themselves, and also spent a lot domestic research. Look at where they are today.

Your examples actually validate my point, not yours.

To keep it simple, by paying for knowledge, we can learn what they know - but we cannot learn how they know what they know. And that is what will help us in future research, not just the knowledge of making what they have already made.

 

[Providence]

For ****'s sake some Indian should file a PIL and pursue the case with DRDO. What are the KPIs to measure the efficacy of this parrot called ToT ?

High time some guy with a grasp of project management is recruited by the drdo dodos !

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"
The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46

Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.

The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.

A contract close to 20 billion euros
The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.

The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.


Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point


MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief

Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route.

"I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview.

It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1).

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route.

"First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said.

"Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price.

"They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said.

He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed."

Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal.

"I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said.

To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging.

"This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft."

Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.

MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Previous Government Did Not Think the Rafale Jet Deal Through: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to NDTV

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said that the decision to buy 126 fighter jets from France cleared by the previous Congress-led government, was not thought through properly. The purchase, he said, should not have been made through a global tender, but through a government to government deal.

"This is much a better deal," he said in an exclusive interview to NDTV, referring to India's new plan to buy 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets from France's Dassault Aviation, announced last week by Prime Minster Narendra Modi.

The Defence Minister indicated that the cost per jet would now be cheaper. Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."

About his predecessor, the Congress' AK Antony, the longest-serving Defence Minister the country has had, Mr Parrikar said, "There was hardly any supervision or control. A Defence Minister needs to monitor but that was hardly the case." He said the Modi government would now review acquisitions worth Rs. 5,40,000 crore cleared by the previous government.

The BJP government, the minister said, will first acquire only equipment and weapon systems that are critical for the three forces. "We are in the process of weeding out the rest."

India, said the minister, fast-tracked the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters - two squadrons - as the Indian Air Force desperately needed additional jets to plug critical gaps. The original agreement of 2012 to buy 126 jets, only 18 of them in fly-away condition, was stalled for three years over cost and a dispute over the assembly of the other 108 aircraft in India.

"I think we need to address this problem" Mr Parrikar said and suggested filling the gaps with more indigenous LCA or Light Combat Aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. "Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.

How many each of the Rafale and Tejas fighters will be deployed will depend on negotiations with the French government on any further purchase from Dassault, he said.

The government, Mr Parrikar said, wants a fighter jet manufacturer to set up a facility in India which "may not necessarily be Dassault."

Previous Government Did Not Think the Rafale Jet Deal Through: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to NDTV

 

[Hindustani78]

Private sector to gain, Rafale deal likely to have a 30% offset clause - The Economic Times

By PTI | 14 Apr, 2015, 06.30PM IST

NEW DELHI: The over $ 6 billion deal for 36 Rafale jets is likely to have a 30 per cent offset clause valuing to nearly $ 2 billion that the Indian private industry will be eyeing.

Even though speculation had risen whether the clause would be included in the government to government deal, Indian as well as French sources said that there will at least 30 per cent offset clause.


Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India.

The DPP, 2013 indicates that the objective of the Defence Offset Policy is to leverage capital acquisitions to develop Indian defence industry by fostering development of internationally competitive enterprises.

It also aims to do it by augmenting capacity for research, design and development related to defence products and services besides encouraging development of synergistic sectors like civil aerospace and internal security.

The offset clause will work out to be around $ 2 billion. During the government to government talks, the offset obligation will also be finalised, defence sources said.


They pegged the deal at over $ 6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares.

Sources pointed out that previous government to government sale route also had offset clauses.

"The private sector will substantially gain from the offset part of the Rafale deal," a senior executive of a
leading corporate group said.

The criticism against the government to government deal between India and France for 36 Rafale jets was that it does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India.

Sources said the government is likely to insist Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale, to rope in the Indian private sector, a global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had yesterday insisted that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not mean that 'Make in Indian' programme has been set aside.

He said everything will depend on the quantum of the jets that India would eventually be interested in, besides the 36 and the terms and conditions agreed to once the negotiations start.

 

[Bang Galore]

Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."

I have been saying this for ages while a lot of people here acted as if money grew on trees. I pointed out that non-capping of the price has led us into this ridiculous position where we now have had to buy Rafale in smaller quantities directly. Had we capped the price & asked everyone participating to give their best offers within that limit, we would them have been able to get a decent comparison between competing offers instead of this disgusting taste in the mouth situation we find ourselves in. Can't think of anyone, supporter or opponent of the Rafale deal, who is happy with this compromise decision and this situation.

 

[Luca1]

Well your own rhetorical questions can actually validate my point. Why are we struggling on a subsonic cruise missile, despite codeveloping a world class Brahmos? How did the know-how help? Why are we struggling to make a radar for a 4th gen aircraft, despite all the foreign aircrafts we have manufactured, including the sophisticated MKIs with ToT? Why did Bharat Forge need to acquire the company itself, rather than pay and buy "ToT"? If I buy the entire Boeing company tomorrow, I will be producing Super Hornets - not because I became a lot more knowledgeable, but because I bought the frigging company. Tata producing helicopter "parts" is in no way comparable to making an entire modern fighter jt. The difference in complexity is incomparable.

It is true that we lack the know-how in many areas - nobody is disputing that. The only point of contention is whether this uber expensive "ToT" will enable us to become on par with the entity we are purchasing the said ToT from. You can purchase the blueprints for Rafale, you can learn how to build the radar - but what you cannot do is learn how they learnt it in the first place. What was going through the minds of the designers when they were designing the airframe? What challenges did they face, and how were they overcome? How was the composition of the composite material determined? How was it determined that a particular metal piece had to be tempered at a particular temperature? You can learn what temperature to forge it at, but not how that knowledge was gained. You cannot purchase or download the experience and brains of all the scientists and engineers who worked on it, including their memories.

How do you think we navalized a fighter sooner than China did? Because we decided to do it, a long time back. If we were purchasing F-18s or Rafale-Ms at exhorbitant prices for ToT so that we could learn to navalize the Tejas, the Tejas would not have a naval version toda. Only by doing it ourselves were we ble to do it at all. Same for China - they did not simply pay for some ToT to Ukraine and magically get naval flankers - they did it themselves.

By paying 8 billion dollars for Rafale's ToT, we are not going to be able to make a world beating new aircraft in future. We can only do that by saving that 8 billion and doing all the research ourselves. There are no shortcuts in learning, money cannot make you smart. Just one or two billions into the LCA program and another 6 billion into a future program would make us a competent aerospace power in future. Spending that much money on the Rafale will not.

So buy the Rafales, or assemble them here from knock down kits, and save all the money spent for "ToT" to make our own aviation industry at home. BTW that's what China did as well - they didn't simply throw cash at Russia or Ukraine and get to the position they are at today - throughout the 80s and 90s they churned out mediocre quality fighters by themselves, and also spent a lot domestic research. Look at where they are today.

Your examples actually validate my point, not yours.

To keep it simple, by paying for knowledge, we can learn what they know - but we cannot learn how they know what they know. And that is what will help us in future research, not just the knowledge of making what they have already made.

Totally true, you learn by trying, not by others providing the results.

 

[skybolt]

 

[Suman]

True, Thank you

 

[skybolt]

India Makes it Official: The 'Mother of All Defense Deals' Is Dead
India’s $20 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft tender is no more
By Ankit Panda
April 14, 2015

India Makes it Official: The ‘Mother of All Defense Deals’ Is Dead | The Diplomat

 

[Stephen Cohen]

We will get MORE RAFALES ; How we get it is just a matter of detail

36 is just peanuts ; we need more

I have been saying this for ages while a lot of people here acted as if money grew on trees. I pointed out that non-capping of the price has led us into this ridiculous position where we now have had to buy Rafale in smaller quantities directly. Had we capped the price & asked everyone participating to give their best offers within that limit, we would them have been able to get a decent comparison between competing offers instead of this disgusting taste in the mouth situation we find ourselves in. Can't think of anyone, supporter or opponent of the Rafale deal, who is happy with this compromise decision and this situation.

The orignal RFP route though an IDEAL thing to do with offsets and TOT
but was not commercially viable

The discussions went on into several previously uncharted territories

The whole thing became a complex WEB of offsets ; TOT ; guarentees ;
workmanship and technical abilities of HAL
labour costs ; supervision ; management control ; QC /QA of HAL

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby

NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.

Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.

The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.

The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.

The matter will be taken forward after Prime Minister Narendra Modi returns from his foreign visit, the sources said. They requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The selection of Dassault to supply 126 Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force took place during the UPA regime in 2012, but the deal got bogged down by controversies and political indecision. After weeks of uncertainty and amid intense speculation that the BJPled administration could even cancel the contract, Modi, during a visit to France last week, pulled a surprise and signed the purchase of 36 planes off-the-shelf in a direct government-to-government deal, effectively junking the old UPA deal while retaining the vendor.

However, the official announcement last week made no mention about what happens to the remaining planes, prompting speculation in some quarters whether the government could look at fresh competitive bidding.

But sources said the thinking in South Block was that it did not make sense to buy planes from a new vendor as that would saddle the Air Force with a 'mix and match fleet' and having to operate multiple platforms, which was cumbersome and operationally inefficient. Besides a fresh competitive bidding scenario would take years, severely delaying the Indian Air Force's plans to raise its flying strength up to 42 fighter squadrons.



This will effectively rule out the possibility of fresh competitive bidding for the remaining contract, which was also indicated by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday when he said a government-to-government route was better to acquire strategic defence platforms rather than competitive,global bidding.

NUMBER COULD BE REVISITED

Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.

The scrapping of the old Rafale deal, along with the cancellations of similar projects, is an indication that the L1, or lowest bidder based competitive bidding process, which was initiated by the UPA regime is on the way out. Some defence experts say the lengthy process of global competition has led to the stalling of many critical military acquisitions after these got bogged down by accusations of manipulations in testing or discrepancies in commercial proposals.

Officials also say that the view within the government is that the L1 system - choosing the cheapest product after it passes the basic technical evaluation - is not ideally suited to acquiring strategic and cutting edge systems for the military.

While the L1 process was promoted by the UPA government, most military acquisition plans did not see the light of day under the process. These include two attempts to buy light helicopters for the army, a proposal to purchase aerial refuelers for the air force and plans to acquire much-needed artillery systems.

The trend to cancel or do away with projects under competitive bidding continues with the NDA government with the cancelling of the light helicopter contract last year that saw Eurocopter and Kamov making it to the final zone. Most mega projects cleared by the UPA - C-17 transporters, P-8I planes for the Navy, C-130J special operations aircraft - were government-to-government purchases.


The last large tender cleared by competitive bidding was to purchase trainer aircraft from Swiss firm Pilatus in 2012. However, that too ran into trouble as the BJP government reduced the order and gave a large chunk of it to HAL.



Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times

 

[uparyupari]

How wonderful that now "Opinions" gets to masquerade as "news".

Indian Media is truly a wonder.

 

[skybolt]

MMRCA deal: India to scrap $20 billion mega project for 126 Rafale fighter jets
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Apr 14, 2015, 12.47 AM IST

MMRCA deal: India to scrap $20 billion mega project for 126 Rafale fighter jets - The Times of India