Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[uparyupari]

leave him bro or sister he's just like @mike2000 or @mike2000 is back ,he's much worst than me,have gone through his post's and he claim's to be British you ought to have real nerves to believe him and they say it's their first language and our's second.

No mike2000 is a brit. He talks like one. But I am not sure which thread you are referring too. Can you point ?

 

[duhastmish]

Ndtv also have this news. And about 2 hour back we discussed it as well on another thread that mrca is off .

And only 36 jets for now! Rest increase in order to be decided later.

 

[Suman]

High altitude alright but not all warfare will be on high altitude , you would need Heavy gunships like Apache in big numbers in open terrain warfare involving tanks.


So shall i dance , i have never been to Gujarat and never wish to , i am born american and will die american , dont have much affinity towards India.

Thank You, we don't need you anyway

 

[maniac@666]

No mike2000 is a brit. He talks like one. But I am not sure which thread you are referring too. Can you point ?

no he ain't any Brit,that's i am dead sure,his writing style is a dead giveaway,i myself is not proficient in English but have interacted with lot's of Brits due to nature of my work.Cant say about any specific post's but his all the post's are of full of grammatical mistakes and they are not typos,thought it would be easy for you to find out.

 

[C130]

how embarrassing for India

a waste of time and effort. in hindsight just buying directly from the vendor would of saved time,money, and lot less drama and here we are this is exactly what is happening.


the buying of 36 Rafales is just to save face IMO though India does need jets badly, but this isn't what they was expecting.

 

[uparyupari]

Projet de loi de finances pour 2013 : Défense : équipement des forces

"Le coût total du programme pour l'Etat est de 44,2 Mds €2011. Le coût unitaire (hors coût de développement) est de 71,2 M €2011 pour le Rafale B (pour 110 avions) de 66,2 M € 2011 pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions) et de 76,1 M €2011 pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions)."

Newest report is from 2012. Change remained relatively stable (it's the same standard).

Can you post the link in "anglais" ?

Saudi Arabia signed a 6.5 billion $ deal for 72 Eurofighters in 2009. That is 90 million $ per aircraft.

 

[longewala]

What was your verbal score you MORON ?
Cracked it then which College you are attending in USA ?
And i dont understand your stupid swearing in Hindi.

Give it up.
This is all very tangential, but most of your super-duper advanced americans would wet their pants if they had to compete against indians in any GMAT / CAT / JEE

And there is a good reason why India will never rely on Apaches alone - its because Americans are untrustworthy dogs. You talk of democracy and human rights and support the worst mass murderers and dictators, we haven't forgotten your sanctions, your arming of Pakistan repeatedly since 1947 and worst of all, the threats to attack India in support of a country whose army was raping and murdering millions in Bangladesh.

Simple - our relationship is business, and we want to get any technologies which will fill gaps, but we will never be in a position of dependence on such an unscrupulous, nasty country for anything critical.

 

[mad_max]

Give it up.
This is all very tangential, but most of your super-duper advanced americans would wet their pants if they had to compete against indians in any GMAT / CAT / JEE

And there is a good reason why India will never rely on Apaches alone - its because Americans are untrustworthy dogs. You talk of democracy and human rights and support the worst mass murderers and dictators, we haven't forgotten your sanctions, your arming of Pakistan repeatedly since 1947 and worst of all, the threats to attack India in support of a country whose army was raping and murdering millions in Bangladesh.

Simple - our relationship is business, and we want to get any technologies which will fill gaps, but we will never be in a position of dependence on such an unscrupulous, nasty country for anything critical.

Arms transfer to Pakistan will stop in coming years when Republican President takes charge.

 

[janon]

Oh praise the lord, if it is true.

The cost to setup facilities at HAL and paying for ToT amounted to about 8 billion dollars, which is why the deal was becoming so expensive. It was a mistake to club together the urgent need for beefing up numbers and the need to transfer technology and start a production line. Now we will get the Rafaes at way less cost, and much quicker.

It's not like ToT would have brought any earth shaking capabilities anyway - we have manufactured thousands of fighters before, including the venerable MKI, and we are still struggling with Tejas. What use has all that ToT been in the past? Also, if the facilities for production existed already in India, then "make in India" makes sense. But what is the point of spending an additional 8 billion dollars, just to make in India, when much less money can get us the birds, and the same manufacturing talent can work on Tejas instead?

Yes, we need to give a boost to our aviation industry, both public and private. The best way to do that is to build large number of Tejas, and later work on the AMCA.

I hope though that the follow on order for Rafale will be large, and not in piecemeal fashion.

 

[Nine Inch Nails]

We need tejas in large numbers. Or the gripen.

Anything small cheap and capable of a good dogfight. And non Russian.

No gripen, so see the writing on the wall.

Open two lines for tejas.

Please do it parikar sir.

how embarrassing for India

a waste of time and effort. in hindsight just buying directly from the vendor would of saved time,money, and lot less drama and here we are this is exactly what is happening.


the buying of 36 Rafales is just to save face IMO though India does need jets badly, but this isn't what they was expecting.

IMHO too. Just face saving. What to do ? French bent the rules. They asked almost double for the latest rafale ! Than the rfp. No go. Not with this govt.

I was a big proponent of super hornet. Sad I'm not the DM of India.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

It's not like ToT would have brought any earth shaking capabilities anyway - we have manufactured thousands of fighters before, including the venerable MKI, and we are still struggling with Tejas. What use has all that ToT been in the past?

Very true.

ToT never gives the best technology, they give you stuff which you can easily develop yourselves in the same time frame.

Well it makes sense, they won't give away the golden egg (their best tech) because then they will have no future sales.

I don't know why France won't lower the ToT price though, do they really think they can demand such huge amounts while keeping all their best tech to themselves?

 

[maniac@666]

Arms transfer to Pakistan will stop in coming years when Republican President takes charge.

bro your username is mad_max but by the way you post,i'm sure you are max_mad.

 

[JanjaWeed]

There's a reason why Manohar Parikkar was brought in... & the result is there for everyone to see. This guy means business.. & wants to get things done, if it means cutting through all those red tapes.. so be it!

 

[sancho]

It's not like ToT would have brought any earth shaking capabilities anyway

Isn't it? Why do you think TATA is so fast in producing Sikorsky helicopter parts? Because of proper transfer on know how! Why is was bharat forge suddenly capable of building howitzers? Because they took over a foreign company including their know how. Why are we dependent on the Israelis for A2G modes of a 4th gen puls doppler radar? Because we lack the know how! Why do we struggle with developing a subsonic cruise missile, when we jointly develop of Russia for super and even hypersonic cruise missiles? Because we lack the know how! Why did the Chinese needed so much help from the Ukraine to get their carrier running and navalise their fighters? Because they lacked the know how!

Also ToT is not = ToT! ToT of assembly BARS radar kits or replacing some parts of in with parts produced in India, is not the same as getting full ToT of a modern AESA radar from Thales or Euroradar. The level critical ToT we had in the past was minimal, especially in the Mig years. The MKI deal was the first one, that actually made a difference and still we didn't get critical radar or engine techs, which is exactly what this deal was about to change. The failures of HAL and later GTRE to develop indigenous radars and embarrassment of Kaveri engine, should tell you were we stand on critical technology, just as the fact that our contribution to joint developments is so low. If we remain in the naive world of, we can do it alone, we will waste another 2 decades to achieve, what the world has today. We need input of foreign know how, the one way or the other and that's also why we inplemented the offset policies, why we changed policies to get foreign vendors in JVs with Indian once, or why we want to make India to a production hub for foreign arms and techs. To push Indias industry ahead with the know how we gather and the MMRCA with the highest offset and ToT requirement, was the biggest chance to get to these critical techs on our terms, rather than beg foreigners again like in the LCA development, when our industry failed with their developments.
And now look at AMCA, we already search for a foreign engine supplier, not even a partner for an indigenous engine development, so we already have given up that hope. IRST / optronics know how was possible trough MMRCA, just as TVC or latest avionics and EW capabilities. The only other choice to get the same is, as we recently heared, by GTRE getting into a JV with Klimov for TVC, which again is ToT, or as we did it with the LCA nose and refuelling probe, just import them and licence produce them "under ToT".

 

[Donatello]

Isn't it? Why do you think TATA is so fast in producing Sikorsky helicopter parts? Because of proper transfer on know how! Why is was bharat forge suddenly capable of building howitzers? Because they took over a foreign company including their know how. Why are we dependent on the Israelis for A2G modes of a 4th gen puls doppler radar? Because we lack the know how! Why do we struggle with developing a subsonic cruise missile, when we get know how of Russia for super and even hypersonic cruise missiles? Because we lack the know how! Why did the Chinese needed so much help from the Ukraine to get their carrier running and navalise their fighters? Because they lacked the know how!

Also ToT is not = ToT! ToT of assembly BARS radar kits or replacing some parts of in with parts produced in India, is not the same as getting full ToT of a modern AESA radar from Thales or Euroradar. The level critical ToT we had in the past was minimal, especially in the Mig years. The MKI deal was the first one, that actually made a difference and still we didn't get critical radar or engine techs, which is exactly what this deal was about to change. The failures of HAL and later GTRE to develop indigenous radars and embarrassment of Kaveri engine, should tell you were we stand on critical technology, just as the fact that our contribution to joint developments is so low. If we remain in the naive world of, we can do it alone, we will waste another 2 decades to achieve, what the world has today. We need input of foreign know how, the one way or the other and that's also why we inplemented the offset policies, why we changed policies to get foreign vendors in JVs with Indian once, or why we want to make India to a production hub for foreign arms and techs. To push Indias industry ahead with the know how we gather and the MMRCA with the highest offset and ToT requirement, was the biggest chance to get to these critical techs on our terms, rather than beg foreigners again like in the LCA development, when our industry failed with their developments.
And now look at AMCA, we already search for a foreign engine supplier, not even a partner for an indigenous engine development, so we already have given up that hope. IRST / optronics know how was possible trough MMRCA, just as TVC or latest avionics and EW capabilities. The only other choice to get the same is, as we recently heared, by GTRE getting into a JV with Klimov for TVC, which again is ToT, or as we did it with the LCA nose and refuelling probe, just import them and licence produce them "under ToT".

Some sane input there, but MMRCA ToT was also going to be Assembling etc......perhaps 100 percent in more non-critical areas, like CFRP panels, pipes, hoses, harness etc. You think French would simply handover the blueprints for the Turbine blades? Or the process nodes for the FSO optoelectronics?