Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Stephen Cohen]

It is, all submarine cooperation with French as a result is likely dead in future.

So no SSN technology as some reports were coming

 

[Spectre]

So no SSN technology as some reports were coming

No Barricuda tech which is SSN in French and the modified version for Australia is conventional.

 

[BON PLAN]

What I specially took umbrage at was French said propeller subs will get outdated soon

Are you sure? What kind of propeller?

 

[Spectre]

Are you sure? What kind of propeller?

DCNS said in its pitch that the diesel electric Barracuda would utilise a conventional pump jet propulsion system that would be more quiet than "obsolete propeller technology".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...idder-must-meet-australia's-endurance/7347034

This is a gauche statement as French are marketing these same "obsolete propeller technology" to India with their scorpenes most of which are yet to be even commissioned. In addition they are pitching to India for extending the order.

The whole thing leaves a bitter taste.

@Picdelamirand-oil may be you can offer some clarity, may be I have misunderstood the references.

 

[#hydra#]

Are you sure? What kind of propeller?

Now a days big players are moving towards pumpjet propulsion for subs, which is having less noice level compared to propeller driven boats.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It is, all submarine cooperation with French as a result is likely dead in future.

Follow on Scorpenes will still be ordered.

 

[Spectre]

Follow on Scorpenes will still be ordered.

When according to the OEM they are obsolete! God Save India

 

[Taygibay]

Could be since the IP was being developed from Australia, they wanted exclusivity or their share in future sales. Kind of like UAE F-16 deal. @Taygibay

What I specially took umbrage at was French said propeller subs will get outdated soon, the same propeller subs which they are selling to India.

OK! Let's separate three things!
1- OZ had the exclusivity part in the tender's objectives :

"The Government insists the evaluation provided the "information required to select DCNS as the most suitable international partner to develop a regionally-superior future submarine to meet our unique national security requirements, as detailed in the 2016 Defence White Paper.""
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/barnes-what-are-the-submarines-really-protecting/7361554
​

2- There is substantial ToT involved as public opinion would not accept full offshore construction.
The last subs will be partially made in Oz. But the transfer is for the Shortfin Barracuda! There
are other models in that family.

3- Yes, proprietary pump jet tech is going to replace old school propellers. Saying so is thus a com-
mercial argument of worth and DCNS knows it and uses it.
http://dcnsgroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DCNS-SEA1000-Insert-FINAL_low-res.pdf
The stealth aspects are part of the deal.

I get the bad taste this could leave in an Bharati mouth but that's business! Do consider however
that India is rumoured to be getting our help in AIP through the strategic partnership. This alone will
completely change the operating ways of IN. And then there are the nuclear heaters ...

At this point, it might be simpler to take note of what happened and work to counter it
Find another pump jet source or develop one yourselves. After all, just as the sale to OZ
doesn't forbid getting a different Barracuda, just order it under the name SMX Ocean,
http://aviationweek.com/blog/not-just-concept-smx-ocean-dcns , it cannot bar help for a
pump jet study with say L&T if the result is local and branded Sacred Swimming Cow!

There are always workarounds, always!

Besides, your Navy and that of Pakistan share French submarine equipment.
Shouldn't that worry you more than Oz?

GTG' have a great day all, Tay.

 

[Spectre]

OK! Let's separate three things!
1- OZ had the exclusivity part in the tender's objectives :

"The Government insists the evaluation provided the "information required to select DCNS as the most suitable international partner to develop a regionally-superior future submarine to meet our unique national security requirements, as detailed in the 2016 Defence White Paper.""
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/barnes-what-are-the-submarines-really-protecting/7361554
​

2- There is substantial ToT involved as public opinion would not accept full offshore construction.
The last subs will be partially made in Oz. But the transfer is for the Shortfin Barracuda! There
are other models in that family.

3- Yes, proprietary pump jet tech is going to replace old school propellers. Saying so is thus a com-
mercial argument of worth and DCNS knows it and uses it.
http://dcnsgroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DCNS-SEA1000-Insert-FINAL_low-res.pdf
The stealth aspects are part of the deal.

I get the bad taste this could leave in an Bharati mouth but that's business! Do consider however
that India is rumoured to be getting our help in AIP through the strategic partnership. This alone will
completely change the operating ways of IN. And then there are the nuclear heaters ...

At this point, it might be simpler to take note of what happened and work to counter it
Find another pump jet source or develop one yourselves. After all, just as the sale to OZ
doesn't forbid getting a different Barracuda, just order it under the name SMX Ocean,
http://aviationweek.com/blog/not-just-concept-smx-ocean-dcns , it cannot bar help for a
pump jet study with say L&T if the result is local and branded Sacred Swimming Cow!

There are always workarounds, always!

Besides, your Navy and that of Pakistan share French submarine equipment.
Shouldn't that worry you more than Oz?

GTG' have a great day all, Tay.

Fair enough, as I said - I certainly don't fault French, this is business and DCNS would have gone all in for a contract of this magnitude. I would also take this opportunity to advice Indian fanboys to temper expectations when it comes to speculative side benefits from Rafale deal, keeping in view it is the size of the deal and probable profits which would dictate size and scope of ToT.

I am also sure, MoD officials would be closely observing the Oz deal and would take all factors into considerations including restricted access when it comes to expansion of conventional sub contract.

 

[Abingdonboy]

When according to the OEM they are obsolete! God Save India

Salesmen will say anything to secure a sale, I wouldn't take it personally but it is a pretty unfortunate thing to have said.

keeping in view it is the size of the deal and probable profits which would dictate size and scope of ToT.

Right, and when you look at the potential size of the Rafale demand in India (easily >250 units if you count IAF and IN needs by 2025) then there is a great deal of scope to receive signifcant "side benefits" from the Rafale deal with France.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Salesmen will say anything to secure a sale, I wouldn't take it personally but it is a pretty unfortunate thing to have said.


Right, and when you look at the potential size of the Rafale demand in India (easily >250 units if you count IAF and IN needs by 2025) then there is a great deal of scope to receive signifcant "side benefits" from the Rafale deal with France.

We need to get this Pump jet propulsion technology some how
Russian Borei class submarines have them

UK and US too have it but we will not get it from them

 

[ShankaraBharanam]

This discussion on pump propulsion is pointless.

Pump propulsion is used only for high speed submarines i.e. Nuclear submarines.

This is because the faster rotation of the blades produces more sound due to the collapsing of the cavitation bubble. Pump Propulsion reduces the sound but also takes a heave toll on the power. It reduces the Submarine power by 15-20 % and decrease the sound by similar percentage.

Conventional SSK have much slower speed and hence lower sound by the propellers. It will always be quieter than the SSN. Besides SSK cannot afford any more reduction in power due to the Pump Propulsion.

 

[WhyCry]

No Barricuda tech which is SSN in French and the modified version for Australia is conventional.

I am not too sure that would be easy. I knew french are going to win once Japan was out. Japan wanted to make then in Japan itself which went against them. Japanese had the more stealthy and advanced sub hands down.


(A personal comment) But is a P75 ride for Australia.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

I am not too sure that would be easy. I knew french are going to win once Japan was out. Japan wanted to make then in Japan itself which went against them. Japanese had the more stealthy and advanced sub hands down.


(A personal comment) But is a P75 ride for Australia.

Hi, it was always Type216>Diesel Baracuda >Soryu
And it will be untill the Japanese come up with their promised lithium ion batteries.

Scorpenes are " very good " SSK today , to replace and augment our Type209s. No ifs and buts here, we got what we ordered.

What we need to do is , "STICK WITH OUR OWN TORPEDOES and AIP " on it.

The French are developing I think something named F21 torpedo which is touted as the best torpedo ever, better than Spearfish etc.....

I am not pointing towards TOT or F21, i was just making a point we can get them (Friendly help from French) to improve ours!

 

[BON PLAN]

Hi, it was always Type216>Diesel Baracuda >Soryu
And it will be untill the Japanese come up with their promised lithium ion batteries.

Scorpenes are " very good " SSK today , to replace and augment our Type209s. No ifs and buts here, we got what we ordered.

What we need to do is , "STICK WITH OUR OWN TORPEDOES and AIP " on it.

The French are developing I think something named F21 torpedo which is touted as the best torpedo ever, better than Spearfish etc.....

I am not pointing towards TOT or F21, i was just making a point we can get them (Friendly help from French) to improve ours!

F21 is again on drawing board I think.