Dancing in presence of PM Gillani

[DarkStar]

yes mistakes can arise...that is the whole point of failing and trying again.human intellect and endeavor are natural to a man.We are using this forum because of someone's endeavors.You can't tie down the intellect to a book that is handed over to you from your father.the quran might be the most perfect religious book ever written...but it is still human to question it and add on to it...you can't quench your thirst for knowledge from anything static.

Of course everything should be questioned, from the existence of God to our purpose on earth, including the Qur'aan, islaam, etc.

Howeve, once that period of questioning is over, and one decides to accept the claim that Muhammad is God's Prophet, and the Qur'aan the revealed word of God, there is no sense questioning what God in his wisdom has told us in his book and through the example of his Messenger. The only thing left for us is to hear and obey the commandments of what one has accepted as one's Lord, Master, Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher.

In that sense, once Truth has been realised, it is static. Absolute Truth cannot be any truer than it is, nor can it be any lesser than its status. That is why Al Haqq, The Truth, is one of the names of Allah.

 

[DarkStar]

Will he? Is that in the Qu'ran or what makes you so certain?

I see that you have danced my son. Why have you danced so much?
It is fun.
Fun, pah! Down to hell with you!

So he is very petty then. And he doesn't want humans to have fun, huh? And apparently he is very vain too?

"...created to worship him". Kinda like what Kim Jong Ill wants his people to do/believe. I have to say I am quit appalled by the "dictator of the universe" image of God you seem to believe in..
Why would an omnipotent being be so vain and petty? and why would he not like some of the things he himself created, like the ability to dance.. weird.
I mean nobody is hurt by dancing, but God gets mad?



Or you could do something useful.. like studying to help your community/country or work for your family/yourself.
Instead of wasting time praising a supposedly all-powerful entity which really couldn't imaginably give a damn about one human insect of billions on one planet of hundreds of billions saying what the insect choose to be his name...

If God "wanted" us to pray and praise all the time, humans would have a natural urge to do it, don't you think?

God is called As Samad in the Qur'aan. can be translated as "The eternally besought of all" That upon whose sustenance all creation rely, while he relies on none...

Allah is also the "Rabbul Alameen" , The Lord of the Worlds, not just this world. Who knows what galaxies, star systems, there are where hsi creation is living and thriving.

He is not in need of us, nor of our worship. If the whole planet stopped worshipping him today, and even started cursing him, it wouldn't make an iota of difference. He would still be providing us with the essentials of life.

God has given us the gift of life, without us even asking for it.

The gift of laughter and tears, of happiness and sorrow, of pleasure and pain, of love and bereavement, of sons and daughters, of bounties and retraction of them, of love and hatred, of the joys of life and the relief in death.

Is it therefore not right, that we show our gratitude for this great gift?

As muslims, we believe this gratitude can be shown by making Knowing Him and making Worship exclusively for Him, in the way He intended for us to know and worship Him.

Instead of wasting time praising a supposedly all-powerful entity which really couldn't imaginably give a damn about one human insect of billions on one planet of hundreds of billions saying what the insect choose to be his name...

You're absolutely right in pointing out the triviality of human life in comparison the the nature of the Creator. Our existance is not even a speck in His infinite knowledge. However, we also know him to be Rahman and Rahim, the Eternally Merciful and Benificent. It is with this Mercy that we gain entry into His presence, and a place Near to Him.

 

[qsaark]

From any book or hadith it is not proven that Muhammed (PBUH) or any of his Sahaba used to listen to the music, or danced or ever played instruments etc. In the light of this, why are we trying to make something part of Islam for which there is no proof that it ever was the part of Islam? Art and culture is all fine, but it has to be according to Islamic teachings. Making figures is not allowed in Islam but Muslims expressed their art in calligraphy and architecture. Music was not allowed in Islam but Muslims showed their talent in Qiraat and Naat Khwani.

To be honest with you guys, after spending up to 10 hours in the lab, when I reach home, it is already 7PM. I take my dinner with my family at 8, spend some time with two of my kids who go to their beds at 8:30. Leftover time I spend with my wife who would generally retire at 10:00. There is always some work that I have to do at home such as working on manuscripts, grants, literature review etc. Usually at 12, I’ll go to bed. Now do I really have time to listen to music? No, and if I have some time, I’d rather spend that time with my Allah. This is not my schedule, I bet 95% of members (especially who live abroad) have the similar time table.

Is there anything more peaceful and rewarding than saying your prayers? And reciting Quran (or other religious books)? That is why Ulema have suggested making good use of your time, because we live in this world for a very brief period of time, but we have to live in another world for ever. It is a no-brainer that one wants to live in peace or in pain for ever.

As Allama Iqbal said:

MeiN tujh ko batata huN taqdir-e umam kya hai
Shamseer o sanaN awwal taoos o rubab akhir

Simply means that do your job first, than think about relaxation. Have we done our job? All of us should ask themselves this question at the end of their day before thinking about non-issues such as the one we are currently debating.

 

[qsaark]

This is what pisses me off: (i.e.music, singing, etc.). This is not in the Quran, but translators add this, everything in parenthesis is added. This is actually quite an undoing of the Islamic way of life. The Quran should not be toyed with in this way.

I also gave a link for Tafseer Ibn Kathir. The Arabic language has changed over several hundred of years like any other language. Quran is written in the Arabic language that was in use almost 15-16 hundred years ago. For the people of that time, it was not much difficult to understand the meanings of an aya, due to several reasons. First, Quran was in a language they used to practice in everyday life. Than Muhammed was around and if something was not clear, they could always consult him. Than Sahaba were present and they could explain the meaning of the aya.

As the time passed, the language changed, several words even idioms were lost, in a sense, they were still part of the literature but generally not used. Than Islam was spreading rapidly, and non-Arabs were accepting Islam and there was a need to teach them Quran so they can understand. Hence, Tafaseer (explanations) of Quran were written by several prominent scholars. The people who wrote these tafaseer were not mere translators but full time scholars, who spent their entire lives in understanding and explaining Quran in the light of Hadith.

Imam Ibn Kaseer (Hafiz Imaduddin Abulfida) was born on 701 Hijri Year in Basra city of Syria and died in 774 Hijri Year in Damascus, Syria. Imam Ibn Kathir benifited from such prominent Ulema such as Ibn Asakir, Ishaq ibn Yahya al-Amudi and Ibn Taymiyyah. His name is on top of the list of those Muslim Scholars who served Quran via life-time scholarly efforts. His "Tafseer Ibne Kaseer" stands out amongst all other explanations or tafaseers of Quran as does Sahih Bokhari from all other books of Hadith.

So you don’t want to believe the meaning of the aya, don’t, but please do not question the authority or the understanding of those who spent their entire lives in the serving of Quran and Islam unlike us who are mere commentators.

 

[qsaark]

In another conversation with Junoon's Salman Ahmed, he explained it in probably the best way. He said, you can compare a Mullah's waz with my song Allah Hu. A Mullah attracts in one standing a few hundred people and he can get a crowd of at least 10,000. "The Mullah has basically lost his gig"

So what? A stripper could attract a crowd of tens of thousands given they could be accommodated. Could this be used as an argument? This is the human nature that we get attracted to these things, and this indeed is the test from Allah, to avoid such things only because Allah and his Rasool has instructed us to do so.

 

[jeypore]

He is not in need of us, nor of our worship. If the whole planet stopped worshipping him today, and even started cursing him, it wouldn't make an iota of difference. He would still be providing us with the essentials of life.

Neither am I religious person or theologian like you Dark. But after reading every religious books, there is a common trend that I did find in every religious books (Besides Buddism). And that is, that God always asked us (people) to love Him Unconditionally.

Now logically you look at this unconditional love, who do we really love unconditionally, I would say nobody besides your kids. And reason I would say that because even if your kids did wrong your love does not decrease because of it, but other then that, nobody.

So here is my question, Why does God require Unconditional Love form us? What is the reason and purpose.

 

[Awesome]

I also gave a link for Tafseer Ibn Kathir. The Arabic language has changed over several hundred of years like any other language. Quran is written in the Arabic language that was in use almost 15-16 hundred years ago. For the people of that time, it was not much difficult to understand the meanings of an aya, due to several reasons. First, Quran was in a language they used to practice in everyday life. Than Muhammed was around and if something was not clear, they could always consult him. Than Sahaba were present and they could explain the meaning of the aya.

As the time passed, the language changed, several words even idioms were lost, in a sense, they were still part of the literature but generally not used. Than Islam was spreading rapidly, and non-Arabs were accepting Islam and there was a need to teach them Quran so they can understand. Hence, Tafaseer (explanations) of Quran were written by several prominent scholars. The people who wrote these tafaseer were not mere translators but full time scholars, who spent their entire lives in understanding and explaining Quran in the light of Hadith.

Imam Ibn Kaseer (Hafiz Imaduddin Abulfida) was born on 701 Hijri Year in Basra city of Syria and died in 774 Hijri Year in Damascus, Syria. Imam Ibn Kathir benifited from such prominent Ulema such as Ibn Asakir, Ishaq ibn Yahya al-Amudi and Ibn Taymiyyah. His name is on top of the list of those Muslim Scholars who served Quran via life-time scholarly efforts. His "Tafseer Ibne Kaseer" stands out amongst all other explanations or tafaseers of Quran as does Sahih Bokhari from all other books of Hadith.

So you don’t want to believe the meaning of the aya, don’t, but please do not question the authority or the understanding of those who spent their entire lives in the serving of Quran and Islam unlike us who are mere commentators.

You're quoting me humans I am quoting you God.

Who is a human to tell me what God really meant? The literal meanings are there for everyone to read and let the people decide what God meant. Personally I think if something so integral to human life as music was haraam, God would've said so himself.

I still hold true to the argument that these people are making additions into the religion by inserting their own interpreations.

I challenge everybody to find me ONE, just one ayat that says music is haraam.

Just like Allah trumps Mullahs, The Quran trumps all other books on Islam. The rest may be construed as mind controlling, political tools of religious leaders with agendas.

 

[qsaark]

You're quoting me humans I am quoting you God.

How do you know these are the words of God in the first place? Were they sent engraved in some kind of stone or metal to me and you directly from the heavens? Or did God whisper in our ears that they indeed are his words? I and you come to know that they are the words of God because we are told so by some 'humans'. Who are those Humans? Muhammed (PBUH) is the first ‘human’ who told his followers about Quran. It was not God himself who told the followers of Muhammed about Quran. So right there you have a ‘human’ link or reference. Than several sahabas were asked to learn the Quran by heart, they were called ‘Qurra’. So here we have several more ‘human’ references. Than Quran as we see it now was not even present in the lifetime of Muhammed (PBUH). It took another 18-20 years for the Quran to come into the shape of a compilation and many more years to become a book as we see it today. Than initially Quran was written in Kufic script and there were no diacritics. The diacritics were added much later by the ‘humans’ to make it easier of other ‘humans’ to read Quran correctly. So here we have a Quran reached to us through several ‘humans’. How do we know that these are exactly the same words Gabriel brought to Muhammed(PBUH)? Ulema have told us. How do we know that no additions or subtraction are made in the Quran? Ulema have told us. How do we know being a non-Arab what is the meaning of a verse? Ulema have told us. I am amazed how blatantly you are disregarding the Tafseer ibn Kathir that is the most accepted Tafseer e Quran among the Sunni Muslims.

 

[Casual Observer]

For a nation with so much on its plate right now, I find it rather perplexing the rigorous debate being waged in this thread. I find the Pakistani people as a whole are facing identity crises at every step of a legitimate war against militancy, which is in actuality a fight against a skewed and dangerous ideology. Criticizing and highlighting the incompetence of elected individuals is one thing, but page after page I can not help but to notice that people secretly wish for Pakistan to be an 8th century fiefdom especially regarding the role women are allowed to play in society.

 

[Awesome]

How do you know these are the words of God in the first place? Were they sent engraved in some kind of stone or metal to me and you directly from the heavens? Or did God whisper in our ears that they indeed are his words? I and you come to know that they are the words of God because we are told so by some 'humans'. Who are those Humans? Muhammed (PBUH) is the first ‘human’ who told his followers about Quran. It was not God himself who told the followers of Muhammed about Quran. So right there you have a ‘human’ link or reference. Than several sahabas were asked to learn the Quran by heart, they were called ‘Qurra’. So here we have several more ‘human’ references. Than Quran as we see it now was not even present in the lifetime of Muhammed (PBUH). It took another 18-20 years for the Quran to come into the shape of a compilation and many more years to become a book as we see it today. Than initially Quran was written in Kufic script and there were no diacritics. The diacritics were added much later by the ‘humans’ to make it easier of other ‘humans’ to read Quran correctly. So here we have a Quran reached to us through several ‘humans’. How do we know that these are exactly the same words Gabriel brought to Muhammed(PBUH)? Ulema have told us. How do we know that no additions or subtraction are made in the Quran? Ulema have told us. How do we know being a non-Arab what is the meaning of a verse? Ulema have told us. I am amazed how blatantly you are disregarding the Tafseer ibn Kathir that is the most accepted Tafseer e Quran among the Sunni Muslims.

Enough historians, secular, Islamic alike have concluded the words in the Quran have negligible human alterations, mostly related to the vowels in the script. Extensive studies have been done on that.

Anyway, the believe of the Muslim is in the word of God. Its a belief system.

You can believe the word of a man who wrote this tafsir 700 years after the death of the Prophet and several political leaders and Khalifah's later, but all I'm saying is - your belief is quite unbelievable.

Every Muslim knows the supremacy of the Quran over all other books on Islam and the argument that God forgot to mention Music and thus we need this tafsir, is on quite shaky grounds.

 

[spurdozer]

From any book or hadith it is not proven that Muhammed (PBUH) or any of his Sahaba used to listen to the music, or danced or ever played instruments etc. In the light of this, why are we trying to make something part of Islam for which there is no proof that it ever was the part of Islam? Art and culture is all fine, but it has to be according to Islamic teachings. Making figures is not allowed in Islam but Muslims expressed their art in calligraphy and architecture. Music was not allowed in Islam but Muslims showed their talent in Qiraat and Naat Khwani.

To be honest with you guys, after spending up to 10 hours in the lab, when I reach home, it is already 7PM. I take my dinner with my family at 8, spend some time with two of my kids who go to their beds at 8:30. Leftover time I spend with my wife who would generally retire at 10:00. There is always some work that I have to do at home such as working on manuscripts, grants, literature review etc. Usually at 12, I’ll go to bed. Now do I really have time to listen to music? No, and if I have some time, I’d rather spend that time with my Allah. This is not my schedule, I bet 95% of members (especially who live abroad) have the similar time table.

Is there anything more peaceful and rewarding than saying your prayers? And reciting Quran (or other religious books)? That is why Ulema have suggested making good use of your time, because we live in this world for a very brief period of time, but we have to live in another world for ever. It is a no-brainer that one wants to live in peace or in pain for ever.

As Allama Iqbal said:

MeiN tujh ko batata huN taqdir-e umam kya hai
Shamseer o sanaN awwal taoos o rubab akhir

Simply means that do your job first, than think about relaxation. Have we done our job? All of us should ask themselves this question at the end of their day before thinking about non-issues such as the one we are currently debating.

Best post I read in this thread. Sir I am starting to idolize you.





Darkstar sir,
I got banned for 2 days nearly. I can't remeber anything foul coming from my keyboard. So could you please tell me what was my crime so I can refrain myself from doing that thing again and getting myself banned againg.

 

[spurdozer]

So here is my question, Why does God require Unconditional Love form us? What is the reason and purpose.

May god bless you!
First of all god doesn't require any thing from us.

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.

Another one of which I don't exactly remember the actual words is that If the whole planet starts loving and worshipping Allah, this won't make any difference, and if every person who lived, is living or will live on this planet starts disliking him and starts to curse Allah, still it won't make a difference. And if every person in this planet who lived starts wishing everything he wishes and Allah starts to give everything being asked the difference would be of a droplet of water taken out from the oceans.
So that's the first part that Allah does not require anything.

But then why did he send Qura'an al kareem and prophets for the correction of human race living in this world?

It could be like, if you are a master and pay your servant handsomely and give anything he wishes, you would like some loyalty back from your servant.
The same case here, Allah first of all gave us our lives, then provided us with every leisure and food and water and everything we see in this world. For this he desires some loyalty back. And isn't it human nature to repay the kindliness.
So Allah asks for humility and love only to see who of his created people is the most loyal and humble to Allah for all his leisures provided to him by Allah. And he will reward these people in the afterlife which is the eternal one.

 

[sherdil76]

Neither am I religious person or theologian like you Dark. But after reading every religious books, there is a common trend that I did find in every religious books (Besides Buddism). And that is, that God always asked us (people) to love Him Unconditionally.

Now logically you look at this unconditional love, who do we really love unconditionally, I would say nobody besides your kids. And reason I would say that because even if your kids did wrong your love does not decrease because of it, but other then that, nobody.

So here is my question, Why does God require Unconditional Love form us? What is the reason and purpose.

before answering your question, it seems you have young kids, indeed kids especially when they are babies are free from any evil, pure as angels and innocent so you love them irrespect of their colour, race or who they are... and thats why we muslims beleives that they are all Muslims untill they get sense to realise and adapt their faith.

but trust me your love for kids will never be the same as it used to be once they grow up, do things which you dont like them doing hence get strict on them, thats natural.

to love ALMIGHTY is most difficult for a human but once s/he gets into it nothing else matters. regarding unconditional love, ALLAH only expect to obey what he told us, just like we wants from things we make. and every of us lived on earth, from the day adam and eve were created, will be judged for what s/he did when alive.

 

[qsaark]

Enough historians, secular, Islamic alike have concluded the words in the Quran have negligible human alterations, mostly related to the vowels in the script. Extensive studies have been done on that.

Anyway, the believe of the Muslim is in the word of God. Its a belief system.

You can believe the word of a man who wrote this tafsir 700 years after the death of the Prophet and several political leaders and Khalifah's later, but all I'm saying is - your belief is quite unbelievable.

Every Muslim knows the supremacy of the Quran over all other books on Islam and the argument that God forgot to mention Music and thus we need this tafsir, is on quite shaky grounds.

Asim, you are saying that enough historians, secular, Islamic alike have validated that Quran is in an un-altered state. Similar scholars tell us about the meanings of Quran. If we can take their words for the validity of Quran, why we can’t take their words when it comes to the explanation of Quranic verses? Tafseer was written only 700 years ago, but the Quran was written 14 hundred years ago. Besides tafseer is telling us the meaning the verse ‘who purchase idle talk’. The word ‘idle talk’ was used in the time of Muhammed, but not in the Arabic of later times. Hence just by reading the Aya, it is not possible to understand what exactly Allah is talking about. Hence scholars wrote tafseer by consulting through the Arabic literature and poetry of 14 hundred years ago. There are Urdu books of 19th century and for a common person who otherwise speaks Urdu, they are difficult to understand. How old is Urdu, less than 300 years old, yet several words have been lost and you need lughat or contemporary literature reference to understand the texts written in 18th nad 19th century. There are other things which are prohibited in Islam and there is no mention in Quran per se. Liquor, where in Quran it is mentioned haram? Yet all the Muslims unanimously believe that liquor is not allowed in Islam. How do we know about that, through the Hadith. So we can not practice Islam solely based on Quran or solely based on Hadith, both have to go hand in hand.

 

[TruthSeeker]

How do you know these are the words of God in the first place? .....

Thank you for this succinct summary of the human "hands" that were involved with the revelation of the Quran.