Dancing in presence of PM Gillani

[muse]

Loving pooch nurses baby pandas
Published: July 17, 2009

BEIJING (AFP) - Two red pandas who were abandoned by their mother soon after they were born in northern China have been nursed to health thanks to the love and milk of a dog, state media reported Thursday.

The two protected baby pandas were born at a zoo in Shanxi province on June 25 and were immediately rejected by their mother in front of a huge crowd of visitors, Xinhua news agency reported.

“No one knew she was pregnant. Her plump body and bushy hair disguised her protruding belly until the babies were born,” a worker at the Taiyuan Zoo, Ha Guojiang, told Xinhua.

The mother’s rejection prompted a frantic search for a surrogate, and three canine candidates were found before the final ***** was chosen, the report added.

“It’s good-natured and has sufficient milk. The baby bears seem to like it, too,” said Ha, who said the baby pandas stayed with the mother dog every day.
In a cruel twist, the dog’s surrogacy has led to her rejecting her own recently born puppy.

“The mother dog thinks the two bears are its own babies and refuses to nurse the pup,” said Ha, who has fed the puppy milk to keep it healthy.
After three weeks, the baby pandas are more than 20 centimetres (eight inches) long, “twice their birth length”, said Ha. “They move around a bit but their eyes are still not open.”

Red pandas are small, raccoon-like mammals that feed mainly on bamboo and habit forested mountain slopes. They are known as “red pandas” because they have reddish brown fur.

The animals, also known as lesser pandas, are protected in China, like the better known Great Panda.

 

[ajpirzada]

muse

As I read the responses I ran across a post I have copied below - it should now be clear to those following the thread that the objection is not to the dance - it is to the very idea of dance, of music, of art, of joy

objection is not to wat u r talkin about. objection is to something u wanna make a part of islam which is actually not. in Quran Allah tells us to lower our gaze and to be realistic it is not possible to do that with women dancin infront of you and vice versa. and y is it that 'joy' is only restricted to dance and music?

- and that is rejection is tied to a particular kind of religiosity, one which seeks to contract, not expand the the experience of BEing Muslim, one which seeks solace in "the good old days", when there was certainty, when one could be sure of things and did not need to think, to reflect on the meaning of the experience

there are millions of other ways with which u can 'expand the experience of being Muslim'. y does it has to be dancing with women. or in other words y is that only if we do something objectionable in islam will we manage to expand our experiance?

- there is a mould and all you do is fit in to it and all will be OK in the end, your reward is not "being in love with God" but rather in avoiding his wrath, it's a particular kind of view of God, where as Quran repeated says, Merciful and Compassionate", this religiosity needs neither Mercy nor Compassion for it is all about dos and don'ts

its not 'mould'. its keepin us away from wat is not liked in islam. and there shouldnt be any problem with that. secondly i can expect God to ignore my love for dance and music on the day of judgement bec is He is the most 'Merciful and Compassionate' but it definately does not mean that He has given me permission of doin all wat He doesnt lik us to do.

--Read the post below and judge for your self, I have presented in bold the ideas that I suggest are designed to create contraction, not expansion of the experience of being Muslim, Ideas that seek to deny Individuality and diversity of experience and to straight jacket the experience of being Muslim:

well its 100% clear in Islam that you can only marry within ppl of Books. now if he is a gud muslim or bad that is upto God to decide and not me. After all He himself says that He knows what we dont know.
.

And this absolute gem, it will give us further insight into the mental frame work of this religiosity, for which Islam is a IDEOLOGY, notice nowhere will you read them to be occupied with the idea of FAITH (Emaan), which if it is not being in love with God, is without meaning:

Who other than the communist ideologue will understand and create policy? I would request readers focus on the following:

On the one hand while acknowledging that it is merely an "interpretation", a person who is a "scientist", in other words a person who by training understands that knowledge is evolving, that knowledge grows and can contract, still seeks certitude, an impossibility given the nature of knowledge, that is to say, it's evolutionary nature.

y dont you quote us examples from Quran and Prophet's life (verses and ahadith) and prove to us that all these religious scholors were wrong. dont u think this will be much more productive instead of sitting here and disputing those who spent all there lif in studyin Quran and life of Prophet? and if u are already qualified enough and hold a degree in Quran and Sunnah then please apprise us. that will help project ur theory of 'religiosity'.

These attempts at fixing a square peg in a round cavity, are the result of a serious misunderstanding of religion, it's deliberate distortion into a ideology.

thats exactly wat u r tryin to do. all we are sayin is that there is no evidence either in Quran or Sunnah (we are waitin for you to pull us out of this ignorance by quotin us some eg.) which supports the idea of 'Dancing in presence of PM Gillani' and therefore cant be made part of islam.

ill repeat myself again by sayin that do all wat u want to do. dance with girls, listen to music, have sex ( before marriage or with someone other than your wife), drink alchohol, but dont make it a part of islam by sayin God is 'Merciful and Compassionate'. You can only expect Him to ignore all this on the last day.

 

[Al-zakir]

Under Un-Islamic society this dance will be view as more than normal and modest at it’s best but this criticism taking place because Pakistan is an Islamic republic. Islam is the guiding principal of all state activity thus this practice of un-Islamic ethic in the presence of head of the state will demise Pakistan credibility in Islamic matter since Pakistan present itself as one of the prominent voice of Ummah. Pakistan in state level needs to restrain from this sort of non sense drama otherwise Pakistan will be perceive as imitator.

It’s evident to me that some of our fellow Muslim brother openly place their supports for this particular dance and somehow giving us the impression that this kind of dance permissible in Islam. It’s sad day when some Muslim are encouraging absolute Un-Islamic activity in the name of entertainment. My humble request to all Muslim. If you like to dance, drink or whatever than it’s your discretion however Khudara do not affiliate un-Islamic activity as part of Islam in the name entertainment. We are all sinner and make mistake because we do so not because Islam allow it so.

Islam isn’t against entertainment but at the same time, Islam does not tolerate any kind of entertainment that contains haram or even leads to haram behavior.

Dance isn’t haram in all cases however there are some guideline Muslim must follow in order to prevent haram activity. Dancing can be either between women, between men, or mixed between both sexes. It is allowed for women to dance together however women cannot show `awrah that is, the parts of the body between the navel and the knee in front of other women. It may allow but one must remember that it doesn’t become some kind of ritual or obligation. Should be taken as harm less fun in normal circumstance.

All kind of Mix dance between men and women is absolutely haram in all cases however no restriction between husband and wife as it is a way of strengthen relations between them and this a key pillar of establishing the Muslim family. The reason mix dance is haram because this stimulates sexual desires. This has been strictly forbidden by Islam to prevent haram activity given the fact that sex before marriage is haram in Islam. If men and women were permitted to dance together than a lot of haram activity could occur. That is why mixed dancing is not allowed.

I have question to those who support this form of adulterous dance in the name of entertainment. Can anyone give us an example from life of Huzoor e akram (S.A.W), Caliph Rashidun or even Sahaba ajmain ever support or allowed this kind of adulterous act? If not than it’s proven fact that this kind of adulterous dance is haram in Islam whether one like it or not.

 

[muse]

Apogies to all for the late responses:

We argued that among those who chose to be oiffended, the reason they suggested for their taking offence was that they understood all behaviour to be judged through the prism of their underustanding of Islam - an argument similar to the one above was to suggest that because Pakistan is a "islamic" Republic, that all behavior within it must conform to the understanding of the tribal understanding of Islam, the offence takers, represented.

Now clearly, there are as many facets tot he issue as there are persons who take an interest in the issue - the question remains why do the offence takers insist that their view prevail on all others??

in Quran Allah tells us to lower our gaze and to be realistic it is not possible to do that with women dancin infront of you and vice versa

.

Friends then if dance offends YOU and women are a problem for YOU, why be in their presence?? Problem with the religiosity you seek to force upon the rest of us, is that you insist that we have the same reliosity as you - the difference between you and the rest of us, is that while we have no problem with what you practice as you are persuaded, YOU and the religiosity you represent, want to force the rest of us to behave as you do - you may wish to think about that. Why is it that You and the religiosity you further, NEEDS to IMPOSE itself on others? could it be because imposing yourselves is at the heart of your religiosity?

by sayin that do all wat u want to do. dance with girls, listen to music, have sex ( before marriage or with someone other than your wife), drink alchohol, but dont make it a part of islam by sayin God is 'Merciful and Compassionate'. You can only expect Him to ignore all this on the last day

No one other than yourselves have suggested any of these things, if women, sex, alcohol and dance offends you, don't be around such things and behaviours, why must you insist that the rest of us find the tribal mentality you find appealing, be similarly persuaded?

Today, Pakistan is fighting an Islamist insurgency, yet with the attitudes some of the respondents have demonstrated, we can only conclude that the roots of the Talib/Saudi view of islam are deep among some Pakistanis and until such is uprooted, the insurgency will continue to plague Pakistan and Pakistanis, isn't this so??.

 

[Enigma SIG]

No one other than yourselves have suggested any of these things, if women, sex, alcohol and dance offends you, don't be around such things and behaviours, why must you insist that the rest of us find the tribal mentality you find appealing, be similarly persuaded?

No one is responsible for the deeds of others. But being a muslim; I am commanded to stop bad morality when i see it by speaking against it; or stopping it by my own hands. Either remove the title of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan; or dont allow these mughal era mujras to happen infront of the head of an islamic state.

Merely labelling stopping of degraded moral behavior as tribal mentality is outrageous. Sex outside marriage; alcohol and dance is explicitly forbidden in Islam. Yes it is unislamic to impose ones will on the populace; but being muslims; we have a duty to our religion to safeguard our culture; our moral values against decay.

 

[muse]

being a muslim; I am commanded to stop bad morality when i see it by speaking against it; or stopping it by my own hands.

What then is wrong with the Talib? Are they not behaving with regard to the Islam they understand?? Are they not stopping the Pakistsani stated with their own hands??

What then is wrong with the Muttawa (religious police)??

Yes it is unislamic to impose ones will on the populace; but being muslims; we have a duty to our religion to safeguard our culture; our moral values against decay

So, which is it? Is it unIslamic to impose on others or does you duty to with regard to vice and virtue make it necessary to impose you will on others?

La Iqra fi ad deen? Who dat?

 

[ajpirzada]

Apogies to all for the late responses:

We argued that among those who chose to be oiffended, the reason they suggested for their taking offence was that they understood all behaviour to be judged through the prism of their underustanding of Islam - an argument similar to the one above was to suggest that because Pakistan is a "islamic" Republic, that all behavior within it must conform to the understanding of the tribal understanding of Islam, the offence takers, represented.

Now clearly, there are as many facets tot he issue as there are persons who take an interest in the issue - the question remains why do the offence takers insist that their view prevail on all others??

.

Friends then if dance offends YOU and women are a problem for YOU, why be in their presence?? Problem with the religiosity you seek to force upon the rest of us, is that you insist that we have the same reliosity as you - the difference between you and the rest of us, is that while we have no problem with what you practice as you are persuaded, YOU and the religiosity you represent, want to force the rest of us to behave as you do - you may wish to think about that. Why is it that You and the religiosity you further, NEEDS to IMPOSE itself on others? could it be because imposing yourselves is at the heart of your religiosity?



No one other than yourselves have suggested any of these things, if women, sex, alcohol and dance offends you, don't be around such things and behaviours, why must you insist that the rest of us find the tribal mentality you find appealing, be similarly persuaded?

Today, Pakistan is fighting an Islamist insurgency, yet with the attitudes some of the respondents have demonstrated, we can only conclude that the roots of the Talib/Saudi view of islam are deep among some Pakistanis and until such is uprooted, the insurgency will continue to plague Pakistan and Pakistanis, isn't this so??.

first of all we are not talkin about some ordinary person here. i dont care wat u or for that matter anyone else do in his life. but when it comes to the head of Islamic Republic of Pakistan then i do expect him to not cross the lines. Even our constitution tells us to not do anything which is against islam.
now comes the point if women dancing infront of men is islamic or not. for that i request u to come up with evidence which supports this idea. i dont wanna listen to wat u think. i wanna listen to wat islam thinks. we have already mentioned that all the islamic scholors who have spent all their life studyin islam consider this un islamic. now u have to prove them wrong to convince us. so get us some quotes form Quran or Ahadith which support this notion.

 

[Enigma SIG]

What then is wrong with the Talib? Are they not behaving with regard to the Islam they understand?? Are they not stopping the Pakistsani stated with their own hands??

What then is wrong with the Muttawa (religious police)??

So, which is it? Is it unIslamic to impose on others or does you duty to with regard to vice and virtue make it necessary to impose you will on others?

La Iqra fi ad deen? Who dat?

The laws of Islam are clearly laid out. Yes vices are supposed to be supressed by speaking or acting against it; but not everyone is allowed to take the law into his own hands; we have the law of the state for that (if it is an Islamic Republic; let it behave like one; not like some pariah state of the US where boozing and dancing is all fine and dandy; otherwise we do not deserve the title). We clearly have the example of Qom e Lut on which azab was inflicted due to their actions and not believing the Prophet and many other examples from the Quran.

The mutawwa police are extremists just like the taliban; they act as the extensions of the saudi wahabi state who impose their medieval mentality on everyone. I for one do not endorse the saudi/wahabi regime as a legitimate one.

 

[muse]

when it comes to the head of Islamic Republic of Pakistan then i do expect him to not cross the lines. Even our constitution tells us to not do anything which is against islam.
now comes the point if women dancing infront of men is islamic or not. for that i request u to come up with evidence which supports this idea. i dont wanna listen to wat u think. i wanna listen to wat islam thinks

Mr. Pirzada, why would anybody care what you think?? Who left Islam to you??

However; since you want to appraoch the issue only on your terms, please refer to DarkStar's posts, complete hadith.

Islamist lunes imagine that because they proclaim themselves something or the other that it must be important for the rest of us - the only thing important about Islamists is the grave threat they pose to civil society. Now they imagine that some evidence from Quran or hadith should be accepted and other rejected -- this is the continual problem -- one for time, all INTERPRETATIONS are based on the knowledge of the time and therefore the interpretations will continue to change and evolve as the knowledge of the time does, ofc ourse Islamists are not into interpretation, they are into the literal.

It is not enough that thay are greatly enraged b y this woman dancing and the PM delighted at the dance - they are not enraged that Pakistan have been unable in their "Islamic" wisdom, to create a economy so that women may find employment that does not offend the islamist, of course the very idea of women employed effends the islamist - they are not enraged that the Islmaist culture gives rise to hypocracy in society because the Islamist lives in utopia and in Utopia
all is perfect.

Mr. Pirzada, whatever happened to La Iqra Fi ad Deen? please do address this point.

 

[ajpirzada]

^^post number?

 

[muse]

Mr. Pirzada

Spoon feeding ?- please do make an effort to follow along. DS makes the point that dance by itself is not objectionable and points to hadeeth which may lend credence to his suggestion.

Of course, I am open to the suggestion that Hadeeth are suspect because they are open to the suggestion thatthey constitute heresay in support of political positions in time and space.

 

[Skywalker]

Wow ...PM criticzed the dancing event , yeh tu aisiay he hogaya kay khana poora khaya aur keh diya khana mazedar nahien tha.

Double face leaders.

 

[muse]

Allright Mr. Pirzada, please see pages 3 to 6 on this thread - incredible, we even have to help them argue against us.

 

[AvaLon]

What a useful topic under discussion.
I have a question to ask from all the critiques of PM, What should have been his action, whether He should have stood up and ask to stop the dance or he should have closed his eyes and made himself a joke infront of media. At least he is better than the General who used to take part in such activities. An evidence is the video with Chairman FBR.
Come on, If all of you consider this a big issue to discuss then PM handled it the best way he could have.

 

[Hyde]

What a useful topic under discussion.
I have a question to ask from all the critiques of PM, What should have been his action, whether He should have stood up and ask to stop the dance or he should have closed his eyes and made himself a joke infront of media. At least he is better than the General who used to take part in such activities. An evidence is the video with Chairman FBR.
Come on, If all of you consider this a big issue to discuss then PM handled it the best way he could have.

Do you think if you are in a party sitting with 1000 peoples and eating food, 999 of them eating pork so should i follow the same? no Sir, I doesn't go like that, No matter whatever the media is there, The truth always remain truth and falsehood is falsehood. If he had to criticise after enjoying the Dance, he should have done it before its started..... I am sure he would have earnt lot of more respective if this step had been taken before that Dance

The original topic has been left behind and now we are talking about is it is allowed in Islam or not. I am unable to understand why is Mr Muse not accepting its not allowed, Me and other users have quoted the clear verses of the Qur'an that point out it shouldn't be allowed but he is just continuing his arguments.

Please stop it now and bring some solid proofs if you are keen to continue like that, you haven't quoted anything yet that confirms it can be allowedin Islam. Afterall he is a Prime Minister of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, he shouldn't have done it, like other member said "If this thing had taken place in europe or other countries, The Prime Minister would have been under criticism even in Non-Muslim countries".