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Dancing in presence of PM Gillani

Enough historians, secular, Islamic alike have concluded the words in the Qua'ran have negligible "human alterations", mostly related to the vowels in the script.

More importantly it has been extensively verified and is even obvious to the common reader that the Qua'ran does not contain a single sentence or utterance that could not have been thought of/written by a human being living in the time of its original creation.

The circumstance that - like the Bible(Latin) before Luther and the Reformation- the Qua'ran is still read in a language non-native to the vast majority of believers (Arabs are 284 million out of 1,5 billion Muslims) might obscure that simple fact.

Nothing about DNA (the language of life), nothing about atoms, any cosmological constants, fundamentals of nature or for that matter any others information of extraordinary value (apart from the 'theological information' to believers of course)...

I guess God wanted us to find all that our for ourselves. :rolleyes:
 
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It's interesting to note All "outraged" respondents have based their outrage on "religious" basis - The Premier's qualification remains his claim to being a "syed" - not a able technocract, not a able economist, not a able law maker, not a able administrator - the source of the outrage is a "religious" conviction.

Further, Shahrukh Khan and "bollywood Khans" are real Muslims
because that they respect the confessions of others, in particular their wives -- What next, children with "non-Muslim" names? Horror of horrors.

Equally interesting to note is the suggestion that the issue may be viewed in light of various Hadith (regardless of their vulnerablity to the suggestion that they constitute "heresay" to uphold political positions in time and space) -- Yet another recourse to religion as way to evaluate propositions what have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

What do these respondents say about the state of reason among reasonably young and reasonably well educated Pakistanis? We are either left to reevaluate our notion of "well educated" or left to conclude that Pakistan's tribulations with the talib are a manifestation of the Saudi-ization of Pakistani society and that this truggle may last much longer be much more consequential than most Pakistanis will now admit.

A discussion about a dance has now tranformed itself into a conversation about religion, hadith and Quran - What planet is this and who are these people?

You quote humans, I am quoting God

Is there a better reflection of the suggestion, "What's the use of looking at pictures when you don't know what they mean"??

Before readers get lost in the critique, lets get the heart of it, it's not religion, it's a particular religiosity - It's not about faith, it about a manual, a method, a how to, in which critical faculties are employed not to think critically, but to imagine that we today are as if a tribal society in 7th century Arabia and all we have to do is copy that society - what did that society think about X or Y or Z, how did that society deal with Y or X problem -- Can you think of a better example of arresting Change and the agents of change in society? Is stasis really the future of Pakistan? Should it be??
 
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By the way I would just like to make the critical point here.

If the Prophet Muhammad SAW were alive today people like Muse would call him an "Islamist". Astaghfirullah.

Yes, such is the shame such is the ignorance.
A1K, as a Muslim you should know, thats a very offensive post.

Please talk about the topic and not about each other.
 
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What a big deal man. If our all politicians have habbit to drink, if our politicians comes from the class like salman taseer, bilwal bhutto who are known to be play boys, if they are so corrupt that prior to election they move on cycles and after that they manage to buy parado. This is nothing...

btw it is happening in every home currently, through the TV. So why we made so big issue of it? Can anyone raise his hand while saying he never see such dances?
 
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Asim, you are saying that enough historians, secular, Islamic alike have validated that Quran is in an un-altered state. Similar scholars tell us about the meanings of Quran. If we can take their words for the validity of Quran, why we can’t take their words when it comes to the explanation of Quranic verses? Tafseer was written only 700 years ago, but the Quran was written 14 hundred years ago. Besides tafseer is telling us the meaning the verse ‘who purchase idle talk’. The word ‘idle talk’ was used in the time of Muhammed, but not in the Arabic of later times. Hence just by reading the Aya, it is not possible to understand what exactly Allah is talking about. Hence scholars wrote tafseer by consulting through the Arabic literature and poetry of 14 hundred years ago. There are Urdu books of 19th century and for a common person who otherwise speaks Urdu, they are difficult to understand. How old is Urdu, less than 300 years old, yet several words have been lost and you need lughat or contemporary literature reference to understand the texts written in 18th nad 19th century. There are other things which are prohibited in Islam and there is no mention in Quran per se. Liquor, where in Quran it is mentioned haram? Yet all the Muslims unanimously believe that liquor is not allowed in Islam. How do we know about that, through the Hadith. So we can not practice Islam solely based on Quran or solely based on Hadith, both have to go hand in hand.
One is a ruling on the alteration of the Quran by humans, its a ruling on human behavior... The other is like saying God forgot to mention this so I'm filling in the gaps.
 
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Before readers get lost in the critique, lets get the heart of it, it's not religion, it's a particular religiosity - It's not about faith, it about a manual, a method, a how to, in which critical faculties are employed not to think critically, but to imagine that we today are as if a tribal society in 7th century Arabia and all we have to do is copy that society - what did that society think about X or Y or Z, how did that society deal with Y or X problem -- Can you think of a better example of arresting Change and the agents of change in society? Is stasis really the future of Pakistan? Should it be??

Religiosity is packaged and shipped as religion in todays Pakistan. The seventh century folks are treated like demigods as if they were free from mis-representing the religion just because of their Maulana status.
 
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Further, Shahrukh Khan and "bollywood Khans" are real Muslims
because that they respect the confessions of others, in particular their wives -- What next, children with "non-Muslim" names? Horror of horrors.

I know above mentioned paragraph was written for me so let me clear my point. I thought you are a sensible man and well aware of the facts but let me add something for you knowledge.

Who is a Muslim?

Do you know why Surah Al-Kafiron was revealed?

Let me tell you something about Shahrukh Khan, Islamically you cannot marry a Hindu wife do you agree that? period

He said he go to the mosques, go to the temples and pray both at the same time. If i can remember he said, he has established the small mandir (temple) in part of his house as well but can't remember exactly.

Furthermore, His son name is Rahul and in videos i realised he was more like a Hindu than a Muslim.

Do you know few non-believers came to Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and said we can make an agreement with you that for one year, we will pray your LORD and for second year you worship the Idols and Prophet Muhammad S.A.W said i will reply you tomorrow and in that while, Surah Kafiron was revealed and read the translation if you are not aware of it (109th chapter of the Holy Qur'an i think not sure)

In Islam, we could be either Muslim or a Non Muslim their are only two words. Believers or non-believers, Supporters of the God or the Shaitaan nothing else..... so it is not possible for a Muslim to worship anything besides Allah Subhanwata'Allah itself. Allah is One and only ONE, nobody is worthy to be worship besides him and if anybody does, he is not a Muslim.

Despite these facts i haven't declared him a Kafir or anything like that because i am not a Qualified scholar and it is possible whatever they show on the TV could be wrong and he may be intentionaly wanting to show something else. It is only ALLAH who can decide who is a better Muslim but apparently Shahrukh and other Bollywood actors seriously need to think about the hereafter.

Regards

Peace
 
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@JEYPORE

Neither am I religious person or theologian like you Dark. But after reading every religious books, there is a common trend that I did find in every religious books (Besides Buddism). And that is, that God always asked us (people) to love Him Unconditionally.

Now logically you look at this unconditional love, who do we really love unconditionally, I would say nobody besides your kids. And reason I would say that because even if your kids did wrong your love does not decrease because of it, but other then that, nobody.

So here is my question, Why does God require Unconditional Love form us? What is the reason and purpose.



Ok God requires unconditional love is because he made you PERFECT he gave you eyes hands legs and a MIND...a MIND to question him!!!


JUST THE FACT THAT I QUESTION MY EXISTENCE isn't it ENOUGH to PROVE his existence....

now like i questioned once from a member who is banned now....

YOU HAVE DREAMS? YOU HAVE THOUGHTS? Now i have never seen it does it make me say that they don't exist??!!!??


and stop analyzing everything FROM A MAN's point of view... if GOD HAS THE POWER & STRENGTH to fix things why doesn't he....the answer is simple HE AIN'T A MAN!!! he doesn't care he lets you roam around do whatever you want and not come after you or HOLD GRUDGES against you....he let's you walk your path and then will question you when GOD is ready he is NOT IMPULSIVE he has patience....he gave us patience he must have more than what he gave don't you think

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

@MR.X

i am sorry let me ask you one thing...WHY DO YOU WATCH SHARUKH KHAN if you have ISSUES with his dancing and singing and his wife....and his movies....and so on....admit it SIR you are not a perfect muslim and by not being a perfect MUSLIM you can't question another man QUESTION yourself.....

fight your wars within not point out other people's flaws to make yourself look right!!
 
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More importantly it has been extensively verified and is even obvious to the common reader that the Qua'ran does not contain a single sentence or utterance that could not have been thought of/written by a human being living in the time of its original creation.

The circumstance that - like the Bible(Latin) before Luther and the Reformation- the Qua'ran is still read in a language non-native to the vast majority of believers (Arabs are 284 million out of 1,5 billion Muslims) might obscure that simple fact.

Nothing about DNA (the language of life), nothing about atoms, any cosmological constants, fundamentals of nature or for that matter any others information of extraordinary value (apart from the 'theological information' to believers of course)...

I guess God wanted us to find all that our for ourselves. :rolleyes:

sorry buddy islam has explained the process of child birth & stars and all tht...so that can't be an ARGUMENT against islam.....
 
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For a nation with so much on its plate right now, I find it rather perplexing the rigorous debate being waged in this thread. I find the Pakistani people as a whole are facing identity crises at every step of a legitimate war against militancy, which is in actuality a fight against a skewed and dangerous ideology. Criticizing and highlighting the incompetence of elected individuals is one thing, but page after page I can not help but to notice that people secretly wish for Pakistan to be an 8th century fiefdom especially regarding the role women are allowed to play in society.

ok let's start off with ISLAM first before we get onto PAKISTAN my friend....

now Islam came and with it came MATHS,SCIENCES,LITERATURE ARTS,CULTURE.....all this when YOU (west) was going through DARK AGES!!

ISLAM taught you JUSTICE,EQUALITY,FREEDOM....however MUSLIMS just got complacent....and the WEST learnt the lessons of EQUALITY,JUSTICE,FREEDOM....today the west has exactly what islam preached EXCEPT that FAITH is lacking.....

now the problem in the ISLAMIC world is...PEOPLE don't know WHAT ISLAM is everyone is making up theoir own CONCEPTS on logics.....and at the same time want to PROGRESS like the WEST is progressing...and BE POWERFUL.....

however, western power lies in its JUSTICE & EQUALITY, RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT....not in its culture....so islam is simple its the people who make the whole flawed interpretations...

now moving to PAKISTAN....

see islam laid down rules for JUSTICE such as AN EYE FOR AN EYE....but you can't have both EYES....however forgiveness is seen as a high moral thing to do in god's view....

equality also has limits...ALL MEN are EQUAL black,white,brown....no one is above the other....HOWEVER, man is above the other in FAITH....

so now the problem that the world is facing is that it has no limits set out for justice or equality....and this is a problem all humans face TALIBANS,CIVILINS,MUSLIMS,CHRISTIANS,ATHEISTS & so on.....
 
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Religiosity is packaged and shipped as religion in todays Pakistan. The seventh century folks are treated like demigods as if they were free from mis-representing the religion just because of their Maulana status.
Allama Ibn e Kathir is not any seventh century folk; he is a prominent religious scholar. He is not treated demigod, but is being recognized for his knowledge of religion. I can start giving you references from the recent Tafaseer written in past one hundred years, would you accept them? No, you wont, because problem is not old or new, problem is the Tafaseer are not telling what you want to hear.

Who should interpret the religion if not a religious scholar whom you are calling 'Moulana'? Do you have credentials to interpret religion? Do you know Arabic let alone the Arabic of fourteen hundred years ago? Do you have any formal education of religion? How many Hadith and Fiqh book have you read? And if answers to my questions are in 'no', which indeed are in 'no', than how on earth will you interpret Islam correctly?

Why you think religion as a subject is any different than any other subject? I hold my present position (Molecular Virologist) because I have a PhD in the relevant field, if we go with your philosophy, than it could be anybody irrespective of relevant knowledge-base or not working in any field.
 
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For a nation with so much on its plate right now, I find it rather perplexing the rigorous debate being waged in this thread. I find the Pakistani people as a whole are facing identity crises at every step of a legitimate war against militancy, which is in actuality a fight against a skewed and dangerous ideology. Criticizing and highlighting the incompetence of elected individuals is one thing, but page after page I can not help but to notice that people secretly wish for Pakistan to be an 8th century fiefdom especially regarding the role women are allowed to play in society.

isnt this the same time when west was busy doin witch hunt while we (muslims) were talking about inheritance rights of women. and this was told to us by a book we call 'Quran'.
think before u speak.
 
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You're quoting me humans I am quoting you God.
Who is a human to tell me what God really meant? The literal meanings are there for everyone to read and let the people decide what God meant. Personally I think if something so integral to human life as music was haraam, God would've said so himself.

I still hold true to the argument that these people are making additions into the religion by inserting their own interpreations.

I challenge everybody to find me ONE, just one ayat that says music is haraam.

Just like Allah trumps Mullahs, The Quran trumps all other books on Islam. The rest may be construed as mind controlling, political tools of religious leaders with agendas.

sir ji that is some confidence. how can u claim to know the meaning of all the arabic words in Quran? atleast i dont think i possess more knowledge than someone who wrote a tafsir after spending his whole life understanding islam.
Quran is a word of God. how do i know that? religious scholors. who got to know it from religious scholors of a generation before them. it carries on and then we have got religious scholors who got to know it from sahaba karam who were a witness to all this. so either i have to believe in wat these scholors say or Quran is not a word of God.
may be some of us have got a problem coz anyone who talks about religion is labelled as 'mullah' which means wateva he says is rubbish and against western norms and therefore against our very own interpretation of islam.
if we wanna go have sex (other than with our wife or before marriage) its fine. lets go do it. but please dont make it a part of islam. same goes for music and dance. we wanna do it so lets do it. but lets not confuse it with islam.
 
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Further, Shahrukh Khan and "bollywood Khans" are real Muslims
because that they respect the confessions of others, in particular their wives -- What next, children with "non-Muslim" names? Horror of horrors.

Perhaps you need to see this video and decide yourself. If you are happen to be Muslim than this should clear up the confusion.
Mr "Bollywood Khan" may be a lot of thing but defiantly not a Muslim my friend. At least not our kind.......:disagree:

 
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As I read the responses I ran across a post I have copied below - it should now be clear to those following the thread that the objection is not to the dance - it is to the very idea of dance, of music, of art, of joy - and that is rejection is tied to a particular kind of religiosity, one which seeks to contract, not expand the the experience of BEing Muslim, one which seeks solace in "the good old days", when there was certainty, when one could be sure of things and did not need to think, to reflect on the meaning of the experience - there is a mould and all you do is fit in to it and all will be OK in the end, your reward is not "being in love with God" but rather in avoiding his wrath, it's a particular kind of view of God, where as Quran repeated says, Merciful and Compassionate", this religiosity needs neither Mercy nor Compassion for it is all about dos and don'ts -- Read the post below and judge for your self, I have presented in bold the ideas that I suggest are designed to create contraction, not expansion of the experience of being Muslim, Ideas that seek to deny Individuality and diversity of experience and to straight jacket the experience of being Muslim:

Originally Posted by muse
Further, Shahrukh Khan and "bollywood Khans" are real Muslims
because that they respect the confessions of others, in particular their wives -- What next, children with "non-Muslim" names? Horror of horrors
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I know above mentioned paragraph was written for me so let me clear my point. I thought you are a sensible man and well aware of the facts but let me add something for you knowledge.

Who is a Muslim?

Do you know why Surah Al-Kafiron was revealed?

Let me tell you something about Shahrukh Khan, Islamically you cannot marry a Hindu wife do you agree that? period

He said he go to the mosques, go to the temples and pray both at the same time. If i can remember he said, he has established the small mandir (temple) in part of his house as well but can't remember exactly.

Furthermore, His son name is Rahul and in videos i realised he was more like a Hindu than a Muslim.

Do you know few non-believers came to Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and said we can make an agreement with you that for one year, we will pray your LORD and for second year you worship the Idols and Prophet Muhammad S.A.W said i will reply you tomorrow and in that while, Surah Kafiron was revealed and read the translation if you are not aware of it (109th chapter of the Holy Qur'an i think not sure)

In Islam, we could be either Muslim or a Non Muslim their are only two words. Believers or non-believers, Supporters of the God or the Shaitaan nothing else..... so it is not possible for a Muslim to worship anything besides Allah Subhanwata'Allah itself. Allah is One and only ONE, nobody is worthy to be worship besides him and if anybody does, he is not a Muslim.

Despite these facts i haven't declared him a Kafir or anything like that because i am not a Qualified scholar and it is possible whatever they show on the TV could be wrong and he may be intentionaly wanting to show something else. It is only ALLAH who can decide who is a better Muslim but apparently Shahrukh and other Bollywood actors seriously need to think about the hereafter.

Regards

Peace

And this absolute gem, it will give us further insight into the mental frame work of this religiosity, for which Islam is a IDEOLOGY, notice nowhere will you read them to be occupied with the idea of FAITH (Emaan), which if it is not being in love with God, is without meaning:

Who should interpret the religion if not a religious scholar whom you are calling 'Moulana'? Do you have credentials to interpret religion? Do you know Arabic let alone the Arabic of fourteen hundred years ago? Do you have any formal education of religion? How many Hadith and Fiqh book have you read? And if answers to my questions are in 'no', which indeed are in 'no', than how on earth will you interpret Islam correctly?

Who other than the communist ideologue will understand and create policy? I would request readers focus on the following:

answers to my questions are in 'no', which indeed are in 'no', than how on earth will you interpret Islam correctly?

On the one hand while acknowledging that it is merely an "interpretation", a person who is a "scientist", in other words a person who by training understands that knowledge is evolving, that knowledge grows and can contract, still seeks certitude, an impossibility given the nature of knowledge, that is to say, it's evolutionary nature.

These attempts at fixing a square peg in a round cavity, are the result of a serious misunderstanding of religion, it's deliberate distortion into a ideology.
 
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