Conversations With A Muslim Lady from Delhi

[aryan2007]

Who exactly IS trolling?

Not you.. not till now..

Low caste Muslims in India. The key words being "IN INDIA".

was I typing in Chinese??

Pakistanis certainly weren't the low caste Muslims considering that they are the ones who ruled the subcontinent for 100s of years.

Bhaijaan.. It was the Moguls, the Turkic, Pashtuns etc. who ruled.. Muslims who ruled were not ethnically Punjabis, Sindhis, Indians, Indo-aryans etc..

I feel sorry for you that you feel so proud of all the Muslim rulers your families suffered about as much as a non-Muslim family under some and you probably converted under the threat of the sword.... Don't take as an insult, it is probably a fact..

And as for Sikhs being treated fair, try searching for 1984.

Bhaijaan.. I am from Delhi.. I am a Sikh.. My family has been in Delhi for the last.. 60 years...

Riots were a state sponsored genocide against Sikhs.. and most of the Sikhs killed were in Poor areas like Mongolpuri etc...

It was teh biggest insult on Sikhs and India.. and even to this date Sikhs have not forgiven nor forgotten it

What happened to all the bravery? I thought you guys were "high class".

Sikhs bravery is well precedented.. when we don't have weapons and the police and govt are all involved.. and we are outnumbered.. we can't fight Guns and bombs with bare fists.. and all our Gurudwaras were sealed so that SIkhs could not gather at one point..

Another incident in India, after the prime ministers' death, an eighty year old man was attacked whilst riding his scooter in Delhi by a mass of 3000 people. He was forced to defend himself and so took out his Kirpan (sword) and using his knowledge of Gatka, seriously injured and killed many of his attackers. When the police arrived at the scene the attackers fled, one of the officers present at the attack reported "all I could see was an old man standing sword in hand and numerous dead body's lying around him.

Gatka.  An Introduction.  Sikh Culture & Arts .  Sikh Women Community


Sikhs are technically not supposed to have high/low class.. but are the worst abusers of it.. Most if not all who died were poor and from Low Castes... hence you did not see a wider response...

The Indian army ransacked entire Punjab when they suspected that Sikhs were collaborating with Pakistan.

It was the Punjab POlice headed by KPS Gill who killed all the terrorists involved in Khalistan.. and totally like most other Sikhs support the violent method of KPS Gill against Sikh terrorists who were killing innocent Hindus...

the IA only sealed the borders b/w Amritsar and Lahore..

Your temple was riddled with bullets.

who were the soldiers? They were Sikhs only...

and though I disagree with that as much as the bastard Bhindranwale hiding in the Gurudwara.. it was on Gurupurab a blasphemic act...

and you are aware of the aftermath...

Thats some respect I must say. To add to the respect, 1984 is still being violently censored today. Bravo brother.

BTW less than a 1000 Sikhs were killed over 2-3 days of rioting but in response 50,000 Hindus were killed all over India..

The PM, Gen, Hindu leaders involved were killed.. besides many others...

the 2 instigators left were Tytler and Sajjan Kumar.. because thier deaths would have led to a flare up in Delhi they were let off..

PS:though Ironically I went to Sajjan Kumar's place today 16, Patel Chowk road for a marriage of his relative..

And what was the story about Lahore again? I think I read this in the Indian defence forum that the Hindus in power during partition promised Sikhs the city of Lahore in return for their support. I see that worked out very well for you guys. Enjoy.

I don't know about the Lahore story... but Nehru had betrayed the Sikhs as much as Jinnah...


Nehru had an anti-Sikh bias no doubt.. but it was better than a fool hardy endeavour like Khalistan, or worse staying in Pakistan and getting slaughtered...


So what ever India through at us initially we took it in our stead... it was much better than the oppression of Mughals and British and what our fellow Sikhs are facing in Pakistan and by the dint of hardwork have become the richest class in India.. My family has never faced discrimination neither have I as a Sikh... so probably a Sikh who has..might no better..

PS:try going to Canadian or British Sikh forums.. these guys have never been to India and keep on speaking about opression of Sikhs in India... the same way Pakistanis keep on harping of opression of Muslims in India w/o visiting it..

And to top it all Master Tara Singh the fool led to trifurcation of Punjab and lessened the hold of Sikhs over Punjab.. and the fact that most of the Punjabis Hindu or Sikhs.. lingua fraca was Urdu and after partition in the wave of patriotic fervour Sikhs chose Gurumukhi/PUnjabi as their mother tongue and Hindu Punjabis Hindi...

any other questions??

 

[aryan2007]

lol so the situation of low caste Hindus in India is just because they are low caste and nothing to do with discrimination they faced for thousand of years. And it was myth created by British to divide India, right? I don't think 160 million Dalits will agree with you.

Low caste implies discrimination.. They are facing discrimination. no doubt.. can you point out where I said they are not??

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The issue of discrimination is very complex.

If someone is not qualified and he expects the world, then I think that person is being unfair. And if he wails that it is being discriminative, then he should have his head examined.

To say the Moslems are being discriminated as was the case of the post where it is claimed that the uncles in the US lost their jobs because of their Faith requires greater introspection.

Why did the Uncles lose their job after 9/11 and NOT before?

It is not discrimination in its pure sense of being cussed. It is just that the action of 9/11 brought insecurity into the national psyche and this was identified with the Islam faith. Of course, it is incorrect to club all Moslems with Osama and his horrid gang. But then, what option did the Americans have? They are human after all. For example, why do we find all this India baiting in this forum and likewise Pakistan baiting on Indian forum? Insecurity cause by the historical animosity. Does it make Pakistanis or Indians bad people individually? No. not at all. But when insecurity seizes, it causes animosity and apparent discrimination.

In reply to one of my posts, Batman was all vitriol. He was inflamed that I commented on a Pakistani affair being an Indian! Illogical it was no doubt, but then one can understand the rationale. He failed to realise that one is educated enough to read the news of the world and various commentaries to know at least something about an issue. Therefore, these insecurities cannot be wiped off in a minute.

I used to have huge spats with Asim, the Moderator here, on a different forum, but we got used to each other as time went by. The insecurities of both of us vanished and though we still disagree, we find common ground also and also dialogue rationally and with a civil tongue.

Education is a great leveller.

In so far as India is concerned, the idea that Moslems are discriminated has a reason. After the Partition, the educated Moslems left for Pakistan, since it would elevate them to higher posts than what they were holding in India. If a survey is taken of post Partition Pakistan, it would be found that the Mohajirs had dominated the bureaucratic and education scene, while the Pathans and Punjabis, the Army. Therefore, the Moslems left in India were either the very rich who could not afford to lose their property or the very poor, who could not afford the cost of the journey and who had no hope in hell to do well in Pakistan; mostly, they were the artisans and the underclass professionally. That they were the underclass was because they did not strive to empower themselves with education. These people continued to be the same and shunned education since they were satisfied with the earnings of their traditional trade. Hence, they did not find classy employment being uneducated and continue to do so.

Yet, when others empowered themselves with education, they got better employment. This aroused self pity in those who preferred to remain uneducated and self pity found expression as being discriminated!

There are many Indian Moslems who educated themselves and have found wonderful jobs.Therefore, this claim of discrimination is causative of being illiterate and not qualified to hold a job apart from clinging on to the traditional source of income!

It is not that the Indian Moslem who alone are poor and feel discriminated. Hindus, Christians, Buddhists etc too who are poor feel discriminated. That is why there is a groundswell that reservations for job and education should not be based on caste or religion and instead should be based on the economic status of the person.

If Moslems were discriminated wilfully and with a sinister purpose, then India would not have had so many Moslem Presidents, scientists, senior Military officers (Lt Gens) including Chief of the IAF, high police officers, educationists etc.

Education and a desire to be empowered through education alone will erase the false notion of discrimination.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

lol so the situation of low caste Hindus in India is just because they are low caste and nothing to do with discrimination they faced for thousand of years. And it was myth created by British to divide India, right? I don't think 160 million Dalits will agree with you.

Shan,

A nice name you have and I am fond of this name because the food in my house is totally dependant on the Pakistan manufactured Shan masala. Excellent stuff, I say.

In so far as low caste is concerned, I was in what you would terms as low caste. Therefore, I have some idea about their aspirations and woes. I am afraid I will have to disagree with you and would like to inform you that it has become fashionable to be declared a low caste in India and get a certificate to prove so, since the corridors to jobs, promotions and education open up like Ali Baba's magic words, "Open Sesame" (Khulja Sim Sim)!

Therefore, it is a misplaced sentiment to be overtly Pollyanna-ish over this issue!

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

We don't kill people for making fun.. we kill 'em for being tyrannical..

But we can kill a few like you for Fun....

India is not a secular state no matter how much you try to portray it...

This propaganda of yours is just meant for nothing.

 

[aryan2007]

But we can kill a few like you for Fun....

Of course..
In a Pakistani forum as a Pakistani you can say anything?
No wonder the minorities in your country live in fear and in ours with head held high...
Please come to my country.. No one will kill you either for fun or for any other reasons..

India is not a secular state no matter how much you try to portray it...

I don't need to portray it..
Stealth is an Atheist, Salim Sahab is a Muslim, I'm a Sikh we are not complaining.. Neither am I saying there is no discrimination... but it is not like Hindus start killing people for fun like you...

This propaganda of yours is just meant for nothing.

Dude.. come and see for yourself.. that is all I can say.. you don't believe the govt resports when it suits you nor the members ...
I bet a new "fake" member comes who claims discrimination in India will be the most popular one here- why? Because you want to hear it..

Read Salim Sahab's post if you want 1st person POV

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Shan,

A nice name you have and I am fond of this name because the food in my house is totally dependant on the Pakistan manufactured Shan masala. Excellent stuff, I say.

In so far as low caste is concerned, I was in what you would terms as low caste. Therefore, I have some idea about their aspirations and woes. I am afraid I will have to disagree with you and would like to inform you that it has become fashionable to be declared a low caste in India and get a certificate to prove so, since the corridors to jobs, promotions and education open up like Ali Baba's magic words, "Open Sesame" (Khulja Sim Sim)!

Therefore, it is a misplaced sentiment to be overtly Pollyanna-ish over this issue!

Sir,

You point many flaws in Muslims but can't accept the fact that Dalits are suffering for thousands of years thanks to Hindu caste system.

 

[roadrunner]

I see Salim joins the ranks of denial

"It is fashionable to be declared a low caste in India".

That's bs Salim. It's been proven that low castes are discriminated against in Bharat. I quoted a statistical piece of evidence in my 2nd and 3rd posts for this thread. Why would anyone choose to be someone that would be more likely to be discriminated against socially?

Sounds like the typical pussyfooted Neo-Nazi whingers who claim "he only got the job because he's black".

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Sir,

You point many flaws in Muslims but can't accept the fact that Dalits are suffering for thousands of years thanks to Hindu caste system.

Yes I did point out the flaws and why not?

They are equal citizens of my country and they must fight for their place with their own talents and not take it as if someone is doing a favour! Stand up and be counted is what I always say, I don't require anyone's benevolence and kindness.

The caste system stinks. It is a good thing that it is being fought by all including the higher castes, and it becoming a thing of the past.

It is also dangerous that it is becoming an industry to obtain a "Schedule Caste certificate' to operate the words "OpenSesame!"

 

[A.Rahman]

Stealth is an Atheist, Salim Sahab is a Muslim, I'm a Sikh we are not complaining.. Neither am I saying there is no discrimination... but it is not like Hindus start killing people for fun like you...

Salim is not muslim

 

[UnitedPak]

... but it is not like Hindus start killing people for fun like you...

So you barely know your own history, and you come to a Pakistani forum to teach us about ours?

Here are some things you might want to look up.

1984 Sikh massacres
2002 Muslim Massacres
The never ending, Kashmir, Mao and Assamese massacres
10 million baby girls abortions in the past 20 years

Thats just the major ones that I know of. You are seriously deluded by your own nationalism. And like I said before, insulting Pakistanis wont get you any credibility.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

So you barely know your own history, and you come to a Pakistani forum to teach us about ours?

Here are some things you might want to look up.

1984 Sikh massacres
2002 Muslim Massacres
The never ending, Kashmir, Mao and Assamese massacres
10 million baby girls abortions in the past 20 years

Thats just the major ones that I know of. You are seriously deluded by your own nationalism. And like I said before, insulting Pakistanis wont get you any credibility.

From purely the historical standpoint, one could trot out the figures of the sectarian and ethnic massacres in Pakistan in a tit for tat mode.

But then, it will be to no avail!

 

[roadrunner]

From purely the historical standpoint, one could trot out the figures of the sectarian and ethnic massacres in Pakistan in a tit for tat mode.

But then, it will be to no avail!

No, you couldn't actually. Nothing in Pakistan has happened, like in Gujerat. Sectarian violence has occurred between some Sunni radicals and Shias, but these are very minor in comparison.

India is a more intolerant society than Pakistan. Of that there's little doubt..Once you remove the cloak the Brahmin dominated government is trying to put over the intolerance that exists in reality. Gujerat was just one demonstration of this, and it wasn't even the fault of any Muslims! That's religious tension for you! The need for a law protecting Dalits is another example of the extent of intolerance within Bharati society.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

From purely the historical standpoint, one could trot out the figures of the sectarian and ethnic massacres in Pakistan in a tit for tat mode.

But then, it will be to no avail!

Point one accident in Pak comparable to 1984 Sikh massacre or Gujarat 2001. Both done with backing of Indian gov.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

RR,

A nation created for Moslems fighting Moslems and brushing it under carpet as sectarian violence is indeed an interesting commentary, to say the least.

Islam talks of worldwise oneness i.e. ummah. Ummah means all types of Moslems. No other religion states so.

If Islam cannot achieve oneness and instead fights others and themselves too, all because of temporal supremacy, it is indeed an unfortunate commentary. It all about power and subjugation of those who do not have the numbers, even if their faith is Islam!

Solve your ideological issues, face the world as one and then talk!