Concept Design of a CAS Aircraft For The Needs Of Pakistan Military

[razgriz19]

choppers will do just fine..
though we SHOULD invest more in UCAVs

 

[Ganymede]

Thank you for the reply. Your condescending tone aside, you actually helped me learn a couple of new things. Regardless of your postulations, i actually did read the previous posts before commenting and my view wasn't quite different to what some other posters were suggesting. So lets get on the the points you raised shall we.

high speed is not the first priority for the CAS aircraft
- And never mention thrust when talking CAS aircraft. A-10 has 0.36 t/w.

Agreed. I wasn't implying that the K8 had to fly at mach 2 to be effective, my point was this. In order to make it into a good CAS aircraft, you'll have to add armor, especially to the cockpit as its the most exposed. now since we are talking about adding weight, we need to look at how its going to effect the aerodynamics of the plane. i'm no engineer but i would like to assume that changes to the airframe would affect the aerodynamic harmony of the plane itself. no?

K-8 speed is in the most ideal range for the CAS operations
with the current configuration it can carry a payload almost twice its weight.

i never argued that the payload is bad, i merely suggested that the aircraft would need some major work done on it to turn it into a decent CAS aircraft which isn't as simple as just tweaking the structure now is it? Feels like i'm parroting the same thing over and over again so i'll move on.

with the current configuration it can carry a payload almost twice its weight.

please read the text above.

- this aircraft is not meant to perform vertical climb so just a bit more powerful engine will allow it to carry some more weight.


and where would that slightly improved engine come from? I doubt the Chinese would would manufacture a new engine just to nominally increase the performance. If someone did a cost/ benefit analysis of this they would probably came to the conclusion that it's not worth the hassle.

And please, spare the cynical comments about expendable pilots. by the time enemy hears or realises the presence of a CAS aircraft it is already in its the gun sight and has "incoming".

You make your first mistake in warfare when you underestimate your opponent. Or in the words of the great sage Lao Tzu "danger is greatest when you underestimate your opponent". If your statement was true, aircraft manufacturing nations wouldn't give a crap about adding armor. I'm sorry but a k8 in its current form would be fighting for its life let alone providing ground support. A fact lamented by a poster on the first page of this thread. Until proven otherwise, continue to count me amongst the cynics.

if a CAS aircraft is adopted on K-8 model then we have the advantage of self sufficiency. its been discussed at length why a fixed wing aircraft is needed and how it has its own niche and why discarding it for more expensive / embargo prone helicopter gunships is a failed logic.

Self sufficiency can be acquired by investing in platforms such as armed drones. Why squander precious dough on something that wasn't built to provide ground support to begin with? As for the embargo prone argument, i again respectfully disagree. Isn't half of PAF's inventory embargo prone? Yet the Vipers were still flying during the Pressler amendment days were they not? As far as i know, the Chinese helicopter was tested with a Ukrainian engine, a country which is relatively cooperative so why not go for the Z10?

when you talk military warfare never think in one dimension. be flexible and read again if you dont get the drift. when the A-10 Fairchild concept was presented it experienced the very harsh reception and hatred by the Aviation pilots and gurus. but its performance since gulf wars to this date has left its opponents eat dirt and eat their caps now.

Please don't compare the k 8 to the A 10. The warthog was envisioned as a CAS aircraft from the get go and was built keeping that in mind whereas the k8 was meant to be a trainer with the ability to carry bombs and stuff. The think tank just mentioned that a specialized ground attack version of the JFT is in the works so i'm guessing the PAF too recognizes the limitations of the k8. You want an indigenous solution that's fine, but you'll have to build a dedicated platform for that from the ground up and given the unavailability of funds, i don't see that happening.

 

[MastanKhan]

This aircraft is already available with all the toys and gadgets---.

Air Tractor At-802u Brochure

 

[emotionless_teenage]

CAS role actually can be further divided into 2;conventional operation and COIN.

for conventional operation,it is used to attack column of tanks.aircrafts such as A-10 or Su-25 are meant for this,although ground attack aircraft such as Jaguar and A-5 could do the same as well

for COIN,though,i would prefer a slower turboprop aircraft that could loiter in one area,equipped with 12.7mm or 14.5mm machineguns(since there's no point in having bigger caliber guns on lightly armed rebels with no armor capability),and the capabiliy of carrying relatively large amount of payload. aircraft such as South korean KT-1, Brazillian Super Tucano or american OV-10 are excellent for the task. Colombia,Ecuador,Indonesia and the philippines have used turboprop aircraft to great effect in combating separatist,rebels and drug dealer

afaik the afghan are going to procure super tucano as well.it's a proven aircraft(compared to KT-1) and more sophisticated(compared to OV-10)

 

[Super Falcon]

we need something like Mig 35 or F 15

 

[Najam Khan]

Good points on the use of K-8 and structural changes required in its design by FreeSoul and Irfan Baloch.

When operations in Swat/NWA started, PAF had great funding from U.S. Naturally they were inclined to use U.S origin F-16s in it. The training and experience on the type was also the reason why PAF opted for use of F-16s.

No doubt K-8 is a feasible option for such role in PAF. Currently PAF lack specialized training in this area. Recently K-8 is inducted in No.1 FCU, it is possible that after 5-10 years we see some role similar to CAS assigned to it. Equipment and weapon load can never prove to be a game changer without proper training.

Strafing targets is like entering a 'tunnel' and looking at the other end while focusing on the targets. I was reading it some other day that a USAF F-16 was lost in Iraq during strafing missions because pilot failed to judge the height and limitations of the aircraft. Such low-level strike missions are very difficult to handle in the heat of combat, specialized equipment and training are the only solution for CAS.

 

[SBD-3]

JF is a mid tech component of PAF. I think a slower moving aircraft will be more useful. The PA can rather ask for the A-10 instead of using the JF...and i prefer CAS aircrafts to be under the command of the army rather than the air force.

For A-10s you need escorts. The same mentality prevailed in IDAF in 1960s where Hi-Lo mix was imposed by government and economists, however, their cheif Weizman refused arguing that an airforce comparising of superior fighter-bombers would be much better than an airforce with scattered capabilities. With a vast majority of munitions at its disposal, JFT can not only perform CAS but also fight its way out of battlefield, if engaged.

Good points on the use of K-8 and structural changes required in its design by FreeSoul and Irfan Baloch.

When operations in Swat/NWA started, PAF had great funding from U.S. Naturally they were inclined to use U.S origin F-16s in it. The training and experience on the type was also the reason why PAF opted for use of F-16s.

No doubt K-8 is a feasible option for such role in PAF. Currently PAF lack specialized training in this area. Recently K-8 is inducted in No.1 FCU, it is possible that after 5-10 years we see some role similar to CAS assigned to it. Equipment and weapon load can never prove to be a game changer without proper training.

Strafing targets is like entering a 'tunnel' and looking at the other end while focusing on the targets. I was reading it some other day that a USAF F-16 was lost in Iraq during strafing missions because pilot failed to judge the height and limitations of the aircraft. Such low-level strike missions are very difficult to handle in the heat of combat, specialized equipment and training are the only solution for CAS.

But why would you like to enter in such a risky situation, when you can pound them from miles above using precision munitions.

 

[niaz]

Whatever has been written in this or any other post about CAS aircraft, IMO APACHI in its latest form is what a CAS aircraft should be.

It is a pity that it is too expensive and probably Pak Army Aviation would never get it. But it is very hard to deny that APACHI is today the best and most effective closed support aircraft in the world.

 

[fatman17]

slower a/c will be prone to SAM attacks as well as AAguns, the 12.7mm / 14.5mm esp. at low altitudes. the PAA cobra that was shot down was exactly under these circumstances. u need a/c that can unload their ordnance preferably precision type and bug out.

 

[nomi007]

EMB 314 / A-29 Super Tucano

but i think pa can made attack version of super mushak

 

[emotionless_teenage]

^problem with Super Mushshak is that it's wing is a high shoulder instead of mid/low shoulder one.it prevents the aircraft to carry large payload.

considering a gun pod is installed,perhaps only a couple of dumb bombs that can be installed

 

[Najam Khan]

But why would you like to enter in such a risky situation, when you can pound them from miles above using precision munitions.

No, that precision strike must be worth it. The intended targets of strafing including enemy personnel/small bunkers with small arms, a moving boat or vehicle....now most of people think that a targeting pod like Sniper/Lantrin can easily take out a moving boat or vehicle..trust me its not that simple.

That most important reason of strafing instead of dropping LGB/JDAM is that strike must be cost effective too...unless their is a high profile target. Strategists believe that smaller diameter bombs (with low collateral damage ) can replace strafing...but what if you ran out of them too?

Now here is another question, specialized ground support aircraft like A-10/A-5/Su-25 have played a lot in this role but why we see their other pilots flying Multirole fighters training strafing regularly?

The answer is that A-10 and A-5 were vulnerable to SAMs and enemy fighters, any fighting force that believes in worst case scenarios train itself in other areas. That is the reason why other pilots of MR aircraft are trained in this role. Same is the answer for Mushshak/K-8/Super Tucano use in combat...they can be used but under 'some' scenarios like Operations of PAF in Swat/NWA.

 

[Black Widow]

choppers will do just fine..
though we SHOULD invest more in UCAVs

Close support mission can not be carried out efficiently by UCAV. UCAv are useful for selective bombing. They need to mature to get into A2A and CAS role.

Some thing like Frogfoot and Warthog is best for CAS role. I think re-inforced and redesigned FC1 (JF17) can also be used for this role.

 

[tvsram1992]

Indian SAMs can easily shoot Pakistan Close support Aircrafts . So its better to go for faster aircraft which is cost effective .

 

[yyetttt]

Indian SAMs can easily shoot Pakistan Close support Aircrafts . So its better to go for faster aircraft which is cost effective .

we are talking about ops against terrorists in which we might need an air raid. surely we do not need F-16 for that.


what makes you think we will use K-8 in war against india?