Concept Design of a CAS Aircraft For The Needs Of Pakistan Military

[SEAL]

Helo like Super cobra costs around 25-35Million$ in this price we can have a customized JF-17 or K-8 for CAS role and it can do more damage. Super Mushak have 6 hard points and it can carry 6 ATGM's. K-8 is even better with few modifications like new cannon, internal IRST and targeting pod , Armour and ECM and 1 or 2 more hard points it can do the job.

K-8 can easily carry 6-10 such bombs on multiple racks.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I agree totally .. i just don't understand why doesn't PAF take some k-8's and put them to work or perhaps PA should buy a few k-8's for it's self for the role.

check this out... this Soviet beast of WW2 was called "Back death" by the Germans. it could take all the small arms fire and even withstood the 20mm direct hits and the glancing fire of the higher caliber guns.

Ilyushin-2 (Il-2)

Nicknamed “The Flying Tank” by its designer and “Ilyusha” or “Hunchback” by its pilots, the Il-2 came to symbolize Soviet air power, much like the Spitfire defined the Royal Air Force.* Stalin considered the airplane so vital to the war effort that he wrote a letter to its designer stating that the Il-2 was as important to the Red Army “as air and bread.”** The Soviets produced Il-2s in massive quantities during the war — more than 36,000 of them, to be exact.* (When you consider that only around 250 Il-2s existed when the war began, you get some sense of the “phoenix from the ashes” story of Soviet wartime industry.)

The Il-2 was an incredibly effective ground-assault and tank-busting aircraft, with steel armor encasing the engine and cockpit, and extraordinary firepower

the above part is just to support your comment. Indeed if K-8 is modified with added armor and some counter measures as well, it can serve as a very potent, cheap and effective CAS aircraft in COIN or conventional war.

before getting a panic attack, I must clarify everyone that the purpose of the CAS aircrafts is not air domination or dog fighting and BVR combat, its purely no nonsense support of the ground troops with the ability to loiter, take punishment from the occasional ground fire and have enough stand off weapons to do the job without even coming with enemy hostile fire.

But if you still want to put fatwa on me then check out what Uncle Sam is doing these days with the prop plane

 

[Manticore]

Mods, would it be better if this thread is merged with the pre existing thread?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/31365-concept-design-cas-aircraft.html

Both threads had great input from TTs and upon the agreement of both OPs , threads have been merged and title has been modified [with permanent redirects]
regards

 

[Malik Alashter]

I always support this idea of using propeller crafts like the embraer tukano or the pc-7,9 they're great.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/FAB_Super_Tucano.jpg

 

[yyetttt]

I think some trainers like K-8 could really do the job. Pakistan doesn't need expensive jets for ops against cavemen terrorists.

 

[Ganymede]

Who ever is suggesting turning the k8 into a CAS aircraft is seriously overestimating its capabilities. In order to make it into an a semi decent CAS aircraft, you'll have to reinforce its armor (unless the PAF feels that its pilots are expendable). Even if you do manage to add extra protection to the airframe, you'd still need to take into account the thrust produced by its engine. The honeywell engine produces a 15.6KN of thrust and i have serious doubts about it ability to cope with the additional added weight as it would turn the aircraft into a slow moving bathtub that would be increasingly vulnerable to ground fire. Armor or not, if you get hit enough times, you WILL go down.The best option here would be to get additional cobras and/or the Chinese Z10/Turkish Atak when the funds become available. No need to squander cash on a dodgy project like the improvement of the k8 airframe.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Who ever is suggesting turning the k8 into a CAS aircraft is seriously overestimating its capabilities. In order to make it into an a semi decent CAS aircraft, you'll have to reinforce its armor (unless the PAF feels that its pilots are expendable). Even if you do manage to add extra protection to the airframe, you'd still need to take into account the thrust produced by its engine. The honeywell engine produces a 15.6KN of thrust and i have serious doubts about it ability to cope with the additional added weight as it would turn the aircraft into a slow moving bathtub that would be increasingly vulnerable to ground fire. Armor or not, if you get hit enough times, you WILL go down.The best option here would be to get additional cobras and/or the Chinese Z10/Turkish Atak when the funds become available. No need to squander cash on a dodgy project like the improvement of the k8 airframe.

But even these attack helis vulnerable to heave machine guns add to that there slow motion if you add the manpad missiles there situation worsen, now how about armed uav's they're propeller and not really small not armored yet they still very effective!!! correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[PEACEMAKER2010]

well the best thing is to go head with armed UAV project with china's , a joint project is more cost effective and productive way of dealing with terrorists. there is lot of research and debate about usage of an ARMED UAV in CAS role

Close Air Support Using Armed UAVs? - Page 2

 

[killerx]

HERE IS MY FAVORITE.

# Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GAU-8/A Avenger gatling cannon with 1,174 rounds
# Hardpoints: 11 (8× under-wing and 3× under-fuselage pylon stations) with a capacity of 16,000 lb (7,260 kg) and provisions to carry combinations of:

Rockets:
o 4× LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19× / 7× Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively)
o 4× LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19× CRV7 70 mm rockets)
o 6× LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4× 127 mm (5.0 in) Zuni rockets)
Missiles:

* 2× AIM-9 Sidewinders air-to-air missiles for self-defense
* 8× AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missiles

Bombs:

* Mark 80 series of unguided iron bombs or
* Mk 77 incendiary bombs or
* BLU-1, BLU-27/B Rockeye II, Mk20, BL-755[92] and CBU-52/58/71/87/89/97 cluster bombs or
* Paveway series of Laser-guided bombs or
* Joint Direct Attack Munition (A-10C)[93] or
* Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (A-10C)

# Other:

* SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys and chaff dispenser pod or
* AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods or
* Lockheed Martin Sniper XR & LITENING targeting pods (A-10C) or
* 2× 600 US gallon Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for extended range/loitering time.



Although, i wish they would invent one of these bounce:
http://img390.imageshack.us/i/286242ejmiwbh1.jpg/

you can fly A10 in lock on modren combat game real time simulator bro cant say about the flying cannon

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Who ever is suggesting turning the k8 into a CAS aircraft is seriously overestimating its capabilities. In order to make it into an a semi decent CAS aircraft, you'll have to reinforce its armor (unless the PAF feels that its pilots are expendable). Even if you do manage to add extra protection to the airframe, you'd still need to take into account the thrust produced by its engine. The honeywell engine produces a 15.6KN of thrust and i have serious doubts about it ability to cope with the additional added weight as it would turn the aircraft into a slow moving bathtub that would be increasingly vulnerable to ground fire. Armor or not, if you get hit enough times, you WILL go down.The best option here would be to get additional cobras and/or the Chinese Z10/Turkish Atak when the funds become available. No need to squander cash on a dodgy project like the improvement of the k8 airframe.

if you had paid attention to the posts from last 3 days then you would have got all of your answers.
but since you didnt and you still wont so I will explain again for you

- high speed is not the first priority for the CAS aircraft
- And never mention thrust when talking CAS aircraft. A-10 has 0.36 t/w.
- K-8 speed is in the most ideal range for the CAS operations
- with the current configuration it can carry a payload almost twice its weight.
- the main emphasis will be on its stand-off weapons. having armour doesnt mean that we are suggesting a dare match with hostile forces.
- it has a 1000 kg capacity for its weapons mix which will be rocket pod or AT missiles & bombs.
- armour protection will be mainly from 12.7mm fire. even with the current engine there is 650 kg extra weight available to add for extra armor. with the current engine.
- this aircraft is not meant to perform vertical climb so just a bit more powerful engine will allow it to carry some more weight.

And please, spare the cynical comments about expendable pilots. by the time enemy hears or realises the presence of a CAS aircraft it is already in its the gun sight and has "incoming".

if a CAS aircraft is adopted on K-8 model then we have the advantage of self sufficiency. its been discussed at length why a fixed wing aircraft is needed and how it has its own niche and why discarding it for more expensive / embargo prone helicopter gunships is a failed logic.

when you talk military warfare never think in one dimension. be flexible and read again if you dont get the drift. when the A-10 Fairchild concept was presented it experienced the very harsh reception and hatred by the Aviation pilots and gurus. but its performance since gulf wars to this date has left its opponents eat dirt and eat their caps now.

I hope you will have a better perspective now. but if you still dont get it then dont worry about it

 

[Irfan Baloch]

But even these attack helis vulnerable to heave machine guns add to that there slow motion if you add the manpad missiles there situation worsen, now how about armed uav's they're propeller and not really small not armored yet they still very effective!!! correct me if I'm wrong.

remember the keywords.

- stand off range
- surprise


by the way, the Gunships are meant to take 12.7 mm fire without a problem. for heat seeking missiles they have counter measures like any jet fight will and they are meant to avoid that possibility through out shooting the enemy and remaining close to ground and surprise is. but if they still get a shot from the enemy then they got FAC observer to blame and that observer needs to ensure that he gives a good brief about friendly and hostile forces positions.

to achieve 100% risk proof scenario a pilot can opt for a civilian job and watch private talk shows and criticise the military all day he wont be exposed to any heavy machine gun or MANPAD fire from the enemy at all.

 

[TOPGUN]

K-8 is the way ahead for CAS for PA simple as that now its up tp PA and PAF if they even thought of this we can talk about it all we want but in the end we all know its their choice but logicaly i think its the best option.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

K-8 is the way ahead for CAS for PA simple as that now its up tp PA and PAF if they even thought of this we can talk about it all we want but in the end we all know its their choice but logicaly i think its the best option.

people are having a problem accepting K-8 as a viable base for CAS conversion so lets consider L-15. which has a far bigger base and has the capacity for over 5 tons of weight for the mix of armor and armament. the engines can be tweaked to bring down the speed from 1.4 mac to under 1 mac.

 

[Dazzler]

A ground attack variant is being developed fir this very purpose in China, i mentioned it in JFT info pool thread. We will see that variant PAF too in near future. But i agree with the thought of having a rugged, heavily armoured and equipped with an LAU series or alike Gatling gun, we wouldn't be using our Falcons to kill TTP Ants.

 

[Donatello]

Cheaper alternative would be to develop the already existing design of K-8 and use guided missiles.....Laser ones.

When missiles are produced in large numbers, their cost will come down, so start attacking the enemy troops/taliban pests from stand off ranges.....20-30km...well out side man pad ranges.